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Christians should support Socialism.


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Posted on Aug 1, 2012 12:43:40 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Aug 1, 2012 12:51:54 PM PDT
M. Simonson says:
"The communal system noted in the NT is not the same thing as present day communism"

Yes, but it's fun to call it the Communism of Acts because it really gets conservatives going. It was also done at a time of stress and persecution. For example if somebody was a merchant there may be those who didn't want to do business with them anymore because of their new belief. We only know a few scattered details and don't understand all the issues involved.
Every modern Christian attempt to have a communal life I have heard of failed, and many were cultic to boot. In any case that biblical model of communal living is never even hinted as being a national or even a city model that every Christian is commanded to follow.

In reply to an earlier post on Aug 1, 2012 12:50:15 PM PDT
neonpisces says:
> In what way are the Gospels subversive?

Read the Beatitudes and the Magnificat, and then get back to me if you still have a question.

In reply to an earlier post on Aug 1, 2012 12:57:07 PM PDT
neonpisces says:
Why is Communism the logical extension of Socialism?

Socialism is a proposed model for a political-economic arrangement that is arguable more equitable and just then our current arrangement.

Communism, (regardless of how its proponents attempt to disguise it), is a millenarian cult premised on a metaphysical belief in history and the emergence of a new humanity.

Posted on Aug 1, 2012 1:11:47 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Aug 1, 2012 1:17:52 PM PDT
M. Simonson says:
"Why is Communism the logical extension of Socialism?"

It's not, but you have to understand how some conservatives think. It's based on a half-truth. For example in earlier parts of the last century there were different types of movements like progressives, socialists and even hard-core communists. Not everybody meant the same things by socialism, for example some wanted to nationalize things that they thought were key to the economy like railroads but never dreamed of touching smaller businesses (or even most of the large ones).

Now comes the half-truth which is really a lie. Some of the hard-core communists had a strategy to stop fighting and bickering with the softer progressives and play nice with their "fellow travelers". The strategy was to make alliances one at a time and deal with the other guys later. Some conservatives twist this and try to say that was everybody's plan all along. But many progressives just wanted things exactly like social-security and nothing more than that in the first place.

In reply to an earlier post on Aug 1, 2012 1:18:15 PM PDT
Communists usually cannot advertise themselves as such. Since McCarthyism, many of them wear a cloak of socialism that more easily allows them to participate in a public forum. I have been to two different state universities and can tell you, based upon the very selectively explained opinions many professors hold, there are plenty of closet communists with tenure.

In reply to an earlier post on Aug 1, 2012 1:41:49 PM PDT
M. Simonson says:
In other words if you take the conservatives, the moderates and most of those who are a little more liberal and believe that govt. can play a somewhat larger role you have a very large majority. The ones who actually want to establish a one party communist system and find somebody like old Joe Stalin are an incredibly small minority.

It's one thing to be vigilant and point out the bad guys like these university professors. But isn't it more than a little paranoid to think they will gain control of the government?

In reply to an earlier post on Aug 1, 2012 2:17:47 PM PDT
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In reply to an earlier post on Aug 1, 2012 2:19:00 PM PDT
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In reply to an earlier post on Aug 1, 2012 2:27:38 PM PDT
M. Simonson: Forget the one party system stuff. What they want to do is impoverish the American population by destroying the economy. This is what happened in France 1790's and Russia 1910's. The media and universities being full of communists has made it impossible for people to see realities like the French revolution harmed it's citizens for almost a full century, FDR was a crook and Keynes was a liar. I don't consider those to be opinions...I consider them solid facts.

Posted on Aug 1, 2012 2:51:37 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Aug 1, 2012 2:53:30 PM PDT
M. Simonson says:
"Forget the one party system stuff. What they want to do is impoverish the American population by destroying the economy."

That's a different issue. There is always a danger of totalitarianism. It doesn't matter what banner they fly if that happens.
There are many different things that were done to harm the nation. But conservatives like to overlook the Enron friendly Bush administration and misdirect folks to think the national debt is because of welfare. The deregulation that the conservatives insisted on and things like NAFTA and GATT did more to harm the economy than anything else by far. Both demos and republicans played their role in that one. But the real bad guys are the ones who yelled "Free Trade!" and "Deregulation!".

I know conservatives who get flaming mad when they hear that something like means testing of social-security benefits may have to be put into place; I don't like it either, but it this model of shared sacrifice is probably the only way to save the system (if it can be saved at all).
Watch this one on the underfunded pensions, that is going to blow up and it's not likely most states can find the revenue to cover it.
The national debt is really a big problem but consider this. The only reason we can even carry it now is because interest is so low. The Fed can't unconditionally control interest rates in a world market. There are other countries in deficit spending and there could be a bidding war for new bonds. If that happens the interest will swamp us.
Or what happens if the US currency is no longer artificially upheld by being the default currency for trading oil?
But some of the problem with getting into this is it becomes a huge invitation to the conspiracy guys and then things really get crazy.

In reply to an earlier post on Aug 1, 2012 3:34:52 PM PDT
I am perfectly aware of the history of the great depression. As I said, you have your belief systems and they are the result of certain kinds of historians. I will not argue with you about it because you have made conclusions based on an inaccurate historical memory.

In reply to an earlier post on Aug 1, 2012 3:36:17 PM PDT
Yes, the right has done a good job on hyperbole and the "welfare queen" that never existed.

In reply to an earlier post on Aug 1, 2012 3:43:12 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Aug 1, 2012 3:54:52 PM PDT
Vicki says:
Dear M. Simonson,

You said :"Every modern Christian attempt to have a communal life I have heard of failed"

I've been reading a book by a Mennonite author on the subject of nonresistance, who happened to mention incidentally, that there are Hutterite colonies in the U.S. who successfully live the communal life.

I agree with you that this would not be possible on a national level, though.

In reply to an earlier post on Aug 1, 2012 3:52:41 PM PDT
but you dotn understand the cause or why it lasted so long though

Posted on Aug 1, 2012 4:24:29 PM PDT
M. Simonson says:
"I've been reading a book by a Mennonite author on the subject of nonresistance, who happened to mention incidentally, that there are Hutterite colonies in the U.S. who successfully live the communal life."

I have read about some of those groups, I don't know if they are modern as their roots of living that way go back almost to the time of the reformation. There are others who live in close communities but don't actually own property in common. But their rules for supporting each other have the same effect. It wouldn't be uncommon to have two small families living in one very large house. Or for example they don't seem to "keep score" if one guy is helping another guy till his land or harvest his crops.
There may be some like that who have popped up in the last century I just haven't heard of any.

In reply to an earlier post on Aug 1, 2012 5:16:57 PM PDT
NP -- Read the Beatitudes and the Magnificat, and then get back to me if you still have a question.

I have. So, in what way are the Gospels subversive?

In reply to an earlier post on Aug 1, 2012 5:57:09 PM PDT
Kevin Bold says:
They discourage participation in society's silly games (ie, "Come out of her, my people," Babylon and Egypt being symbols of the secular godless world).

In reply to an earlier post on Aug 1, 2012 7:24:36 PM PDT
mr critic,
"FDR was a crook". You lose me with this one. He is one of the most beloved Presidents of all time. I understand there are those who did not like him, but to call him a crook. And, I'm afraid that is your opinion, and I think most would agree with me. I'm sure you don't care.
John

In reply to an earlier post on Aug 1, 2012 8:15:16 PM PDT
I do understand why it lasted so long, but the reason I understand is probably different from your creative process.

In reply to an earlier post on Aug 1, 2012 8:25:20 PM PDT
fdr is only beloved by commies

he started teh social security ponzi scheme knowing it would go bust in 50 years after he was long gone

In reply to an earlier post on Aug 1, 2012 8:25:28 PM PDT
neonpisces says:
> So, in what way are the Gospels subversive?

The inversion of your standard social order wherein God identifies with, and is to be found among the Poor; where peace-keeping is preferable to aggression; where money is deemed worth nothing; where personal power can send your soul to Hell.

Posted on Aug 1, 2012 8:28:18 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Aug 1, 2012 8:29:32 PM PDT
Garrett Orr says:
"And we lived this example among you: If ye shall not work ye shall not eat" 2 Thessalonians 3:10

Any one want to weigh in on how this might apply to the topic? Or did I miss the mention somewhere?

Posted on Aug 1, 2012 8:29:59 PM PDT
Garrett Orr says:
God bless ya'll

In reply to an earlier post on Aug 1, 2012 8:32:06 PM PDT
i think we said that earlier

commies who want to twist the bible ignore such inconveniences

In reply to an earlier post on Aug 1, 2012 8:34:24 PM PDT
neonpisces says:
> fdr is only beloved by commies

Must be a whole lot of commies around then.

Even Saint Ronald of Rancho del Cielo had kind things to say about him:

"All of us who lived through those years remember the drabness the depression brought. But we remember, too, how people pulled together, that sense of community and shared values, that belief in American enterprise and democracy that saw us through. It was that engrained American optimism, that sense of hope Franklin Roosevelt so brilliantly summoned and mobilized."

FDR was, per St. Ron: "an American giant, a leader who shaped, inspired, and led our people through perilous times."

And this:

"What a wave of affection and pride swept through that crowd as he passed by in an open car ... a familiar smile on his lips, jaunty and confident, drawing from us reservoirs of confidence and enthusiasm some of us had forgotten we had during those hard years. Maybe that was FDR's greatest gift to us. He really did convince us that the only thing we had to fear was fear itself."

http://www.firstprinciplesjournal.com/articles.aspx?article=1082&theme=home&page=2&loc=b&type=ctbf

So, by your ever-so incisive and brilliant deduction, Ronald Reagan was a Communist.

I'm reasonably certain that he'd be surprised by the news...but given the intellectual quality of the American Right, I suppose I should not be.
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Discussion in:  Christianity forum
Participants:  30
Total posts:  224
Initial post:  Jul 30, 2012
Latest post:  Aug 8, 2012

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