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Who Created Sin?


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In reply to an earlier post on May 10, 2012 10:12:46 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 10, 2012 7:30:58 PM PDT
J. Rawlins says:
BS says: Watch this... It says that jesus ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

and

BS says: Rashi: I will cause the sun to set at midday: When there will be exceeding tranquility, a sudden downfall will come and our Rabbis said: This refers to the day of Josiah who died by the "peaceful sword" ...

JR: Seems that both of you have a great ability to make nothing out of the word of God.
The whole book of Amos is prophecy over the destruction of peoples and places in and around the land of Israel. To pass this off to the death of Josiah is to completely miss the point of the prophecy in regards the reason for the destruction. Here it is in CONTEXT:

Amos 8:1-10
Thus the Lord God showed to me, and behold, a basket of ripe summer fruit. 2) And He said, Amos, what do you see? And I said, A basket of summer fruit. Then said the Lord to me, The END HAS COME UPON MY PEOPLE ISRAEL; I will not pass by and spare them any more. 3) And the songs of the Temple shall become wailing in that day, says the Lord God. The DEAD BODIES SHALL BE MANY; in every place they shall be cast forth in silence. 4) Hear this, O you who would swallow up and TRAMPLE down THE NEEDY, even to make the POOR of the land to fail and COME TO AN END, 5) Saying, When will the New Moon festival be past that we may SELL GRAIN? And the Sabbath that we may offer wheat for SALE, making the EPHAH SMALL and the SHEKEL GREAT and FALSIFYING the SCALES by deceit. 6) That we may BUY THE POOR for silver and the needy for a pair of sandals; yes, and SELL THE REFUSE (as if it were food grade) of the wheat. 7) The Lord has sworn by the Glory and Pride of Jacob (who is Himself), Surely I will never forget any of their deeds. 8) Shall not the LAND TREMBLE ON THIS ACCOUNT, and everyone mourn who dwells in it? Yes, it shall rise like the river Nile, all of it, and it shall be tossed about and sink back again to normal level, as does the Nile of Egypt. 9) And in that day, says the Lord God, I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in broad daylight 10) And I will turn your feasts into mourning and all your songs into lamentation and I will cause sackcloth to be put upon all loins and baldess shall come on evey head; and I will make that time as the mourning for an only son, and the end of it as a bitter day. ...

Refers to the day of Josiah's death, huh? Well maybe after you get finished twisting it, but in CONTEXT is about God's punishment for their full blown greed and total lack of compassion for the poor.

In the Christian view, it is at least an extention of the same reason for the prophecy: destruction for GREED and LACK of compassion. In the days of Messiah Yeshua/Christ Jesus, seems the same attitude prevailed. It was no longer sufficient that they panted after the New Moon and Sabbath to pass so they could sell at the gates and streets, they had now moved their greed and lack of compassion for the traveling poor right onto the Temple grounds, to the Court of the Gentiles, showing complete lack of honor for the sanctity of the Courts of the Temple, but especially the only court that the Gentiles could worship. And so a MORE COMPLETE fulfillment of the prophecy.

I don't expect you to either understand it nor agree with it, but there it is anyway.

In reply to an earlier post on May 10, 2012 1:02:59 PM PDT
Big Shmooz says:
J. Rawlins says: Refers to the day of Josiah's death, huh? Well maybe after you get finished twisting it, but in CONTEXT is about God's punishment for their full blown greed and total lack of compassion for the poor.

Me: You obviously misunderstood what I was saying. I was not saying that it's not God's punishment for their greed and was fulfilled on the day of Josiah's death. The Rabbi's are explaining that this event was PART of the punishment that is going to happen. That IS the context.

J. Rawlins says: In the Christian view, it is at least an extention of the same reason for the prophecy: destruction for GREED and LACK of compassion. In the days of Messiah Yeshua/Christ Jesus, seems the same attitude prevailed. It was no longer sufficient that they panted after the New Moon and Sabbath to pass so they could sell at the gates and streets, they had now moved their greed and lack of compassion for the traveling poor right onto the Temple grounds, to the Court of the Gentiles, showing complete lack of honor for the sanctity of the Courts of the Temple, but especially the only court that the Gentiles could worship. And so a MORE COMPLETE fulfillment of the prophecy.

Me: That doesn't even make sense. Moreover, there is no such thing as a court of the Gentiles.

In reply to an earlier post on May 10, 2012 1:44:55 PM PDT
B. Nixon says:
Part of a description of Herod's Temple: "Several remains of Herod's stately temple have by recent explorations been brought to light. It had two courts, one intended for the Israelites only, and the other, a large outer court, called "the court of the Gentiles," intended for the use of strangers of all nations. These two courts were separated by a low wall, as Josephus states, some 4 1/2 feet high, with thirteen openings. Along the top of this dividing wall, at regular intervals, were placed pillars bearing in Greek an inscription to the effect that no stranger was, on the pain of death, to pass from the court of the Gentiles into that of the Jews."

In reply to an earlier post on May 10, 2012 4:55:37 PM PDT
J. Rawlins says:
Thank you B. Nixon. I knew that I had read some source outside the Bible that mentioned the Court of the Gentiles, but had forgotten the source.

In reply to an earlier post on May 10, 2012 5:24:53 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 10, 2012 5:25:19 PM PDT
J. Rawlins says:
BS,
I didn't misunderstand what you were saying at all. Once again, you were blowing smoke for the purpose of deflecting from the truth, and in this case it was that the prophecy was notification of punishment for greed and lack of compassion, which neither you, nor the rabbi you quoted, bothered to mention. You both focused on Josiah's death, which was totally outside the focus of the prophecy.

You do it consistently and I've come to anticipate it. It is a form of deception. One that some of us are becoming rather keen to.

In reply to an earlier post on May 10, 2012 5:42:07 PM PDT
B. Nixon says:
You're welcome. Google to the rescue.

In reply to an earlier post on May 10, 2012 5:45:30 PM PDT
Big Shmooz says:
B. Nixon says: Part of a description of Herod's Temple: "Several remains of Herod's stately temple have by recent explorations been brought to light. It had two courts, one intended for the Israelites only, and the other, a large outer court, called "the court of the Gentiles," intended for the use of strangers of all nations. These two courts were separated by a low wall, as Josephus states, some 4 1/2 feet high, with thirteen openings. Along the top of this dividing wall, at regular intervals, were placed pillars bearing in Greek an inscription to the effect that no stranger was, on the pain of death, to pass from the court of the Gentiles into that of the Jews."

Me: This is incorrect information. The Talmud discusses the Temple with it's dimensions & section names etc... There is the Ezras Kohanim. There is the Ezras Nashim which was located to the east. Then there was the main body referred to as the Ezras Yisrael. Then there was an area referred to as "the outer court". There is no area called "court of the Gentiles", however a Gentile is permitted to enter the outer court.

I actually found the following on a Christian website...
These Temple precincts was divided into 4 courts: 1. The Court of the Women . 2. The Court of the Israelites . 3. The Court of the Priests. 4. The Court outer (Hel). The term "Court of Gentiles" is non-existent. However the fact that there was an area on the Temple Mount to which Gentiles had access is hinted or referred to frequently in ancient writings (e.g. by Philo in Legatio ad Caium 212; by Josephus in The Jewish War II 341, V 194, VI 125, 126 and Antiquities XV 417), and is explicitly mentioned in Josephus's treaties Against Apion II 103, 104 in the following words:

Our Temple . . . was surrounded by four courts. . . Admission to the (outer court) was free to all, including Gentiles (allophuloi, alienigeni); only women in the time of their menstruation were not allowed to enter. The second court could be entered by all Jews and their wives when free from any defilement; the third by male Jews if they were clean and purified; the fourth by priests robed in their sacerdotal vestments.

To be continued God willing...

In reply to an earlier post on May 10, 2012 5:46:17 PM PDT
Big Shmooz says:
The Court of the Women obtained its name, not from its appropriation to the exclusive use of women, but because they were not allowed to proceed farther, except for sacrificial purposes. Indeed, this was probably the common place for worship, the females occupying, according to Jewish tradition.

The area of the Gentiles was outside of the Temple. From here it was three feet up to the Temple level. The Court of the Women was three feet higher than the first Temple level, and now six feet higher than the outer court. The Court of the Men of Israel was ten feet higher than that of the women. The Court of the Priest was three feet higher than the Men of Israel. The Holy of Holies was eight feet above that of the Priest.

The Court of the Women being six feet over that of the outer court signified that the Jewish woman had privileges the Gentiles did not have. The Court of the Israelites was ten feet over that of the Court of the Women. This signified that all women of Israel and all Gentiles were under the authority of the Men of Israel. The Holy of Holies was eleven feet over the Court of the Men of Israel and signified that God was over all.

The Gentiles were not allowed any further into the Temple other then the Outer Court. These courts were separated by a low wall, as Josephus the Jewish historian of the first century A.D. wrote about the warning signs in Greek and Latin that were placed on the barrier wall that separated the court of the gentiles from the other courts in the Temple. Not until 1871 did archaeologists actually discover one written in Greek. Its seven line in scri ption reads as follows: NO FOREIGNER IS TO GO BEYOND THE BALUSTRADE AND THE PLAZA OF THE TEMPLE ZONE WHOEVER IS CAUGHT DOING SO WILL HAVE HIMSELF TO BLAME FOR HIS DEATH WHICH WILL FOLLOW

In reply to an earlier post on May 10, 2012 5:54:37 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 10, 2012 7:14:29 PM PDT
Big Shmooz says:
J. Rawlins says: BS,
I didn't misunderstand what you were saying at all. Once again, you were blowing smoke for the purpose of deflecting from the truth, and in this case it was that the prophecy was notification of punishment for greed and lack of compassion, which neither you, nor the rabbi you quoted, bothered to mention. You both focused on Josiah's death, which was totally outside the focus of the prophecy.

Me: It was a fulfillment of this particular area of the prophecy. I did not mention the reasons for why this was happening because the context makes it pretty clear that it was due to the misdeeds mentioned. If you didn't take into account that the Talmudic Rabbi's (& Rashi) realized this, that is not my fault.

The only thing I was focusing on in my post was this particular area of the prophecy which was indeed fulfilled as I have explained with Josiah's death & the resultant response.

The attempt you make to show that the context is being removed with an explanation such as the Rabbi's give is in error since as I said, this was all part of the punishment for the misdeeds. How it specifically is fulfilled by Josiah's death is what the Rabbi's explain & their explanation fits perfectly the Text of Scripture which describes Josiah's death & what followed.

In reply to an earlier post on May 10, 2012 5:55:22 PM PDT
Big Shmooz says:
B. Nixon says: You're welcome. Google to the rescue.

Me: The info you came up with is incorrect.

In reply to an earlier post on May 10, 2012 6:20:05 PM PDT
J. Rawlins says:
BS: The Court of the Women obtained its name, not from its appropriation to the exclusive use of women, but because they were not allowed to proceed farther, except for sacrificial purposes.

BS: The Gentiles were not allowed any further into the Temple other then the Outer Court.

Yeah, we know. ERGO Court of the Gentiles. DUH!

In reply to an earlier post on May 10, 2012 7:10:14 PM PDT
Big Shmooz says:
J. Rawlins says: Yeah, we know. ERGO Court of the Gentiles. DUH!

Me: You missed my point. That is not the name of the court. THAT was my point. It's name is actually called "Haychal". (which literally means "hall")

In reply to an earlier post on May 10, 2012 7:28:54 PM PDT
J. Rawlins says:
Once again, BS, I did not miss your point. Here it is in your own words:

BS: The Gentiles were not allowed any further into the Temple other then the Outer Court.

We've understood that all along. OUTER COURT of which the GENTILES were to go no further. Ergo, COURT OF THE GENTILES. You can call it whatever you like, the Gentiles would have known it as the Court of the Gentiles because that is where they would have been allowed.

You are just too dense for words.

In reply to an earlier post on May 10, 2012 7:33:29 PM PDT
Big Shmooz says:
We've understood that all along. OUTER COURT of which the GENTILES were to go no further. Ergo, COURT OF THE GENTILES. You can call it whatever you like, the Gentiles would have known it as the Court of the Gentiles because that is where they would have been allowed.

Me: It was not called "court of the Gentiles" That is my point. The Gentiles would have known it as the Haychal.

People are allowed in certain parts of the white house whilst restricted from other parts. So are the parts people are permitted into called by name as "the people's area"?

In reply to an earlier post on May 10, 2012 8:01:09 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 10, 2012 9:18:44 PM PDT
J. Rawlins says:
Actually, I think it's called the Public Area by those of us who don't get bogged down in nitnoid minutia.

You get all jerked out of joint over a common name applied to a common area of the Temple and then you use the word "then" instead of the correct word "than" and nobody makes a big deal out of it. As in:
BS: The Gentiles were not allowed any further into the Temple other [then] the Outer Court.

Nitnoid!

In reply to an earlier post on May 11, 2012 4:42:30 PM PDT
Big Shmooz says:
J. Rawlins says: Actually, I think it's called the Public Area by those of us who don't get bogged down in nitnoid minutia.

You get all jerked out of joint over a common name applied to a common area of the Temple and then you use the word "then" instead of the correct word "than" and nobody makes a big deal out of it. As in:
BS: The Gentiles were not allowed any further into the Temple other [then] the Outer Court.

Nitnoid!

Me: You are too funny. If you had bothered to actually comprehend my post, I did not actually write that. That came from a copy and paste that I had done from a Christian website. If you want to pick on the spelling, pick on the CHRISTIAN who wrote that on his website.
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Discussion in:  Christianity forum
Participants:  77
Total posts:  1441
Initial post:  Mar 4, 2012
Latest post:  May 11, 2012

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