Customer Discussions > Christianity forum

SNAP Unmasked


Sort: Oldest first | Newest first
Showing 1851-1875 of 1000 posts in this discussion
Posted on Jan 19, 2012 3:00:21 PM PST
Kevin Bold says:
[Customers don't think this post adds to the discussion. Show post anyway. Show all unhelpful posts.]

Posted on Jan 19, 2012 3:02:33 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Jan 19, 2012 3:03:20 PM PST
Kevin Bold says:
[Customers don't think this post adds to the discussion. Show post anyway. Show all unhelpful posts.]

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 19, 2012 3:16:00 PM PST
No, I'm not upset with anything except the fact you and William Donohue do the Catholic Church a great disservice whenever you post your perspectives. Of Donohue's defenses of the Church I am not alone in having said, "With friends like him, who needs (external) enemies." His advice on how to support the Church will sink it faster than any so-called anti-Catholic ever could!

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 19, 2012 3:17:02 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Jan 19, 2012 3:29:44 PM PST
Sorry, your source is not credible for me and many others. Not even the National Catholic Reporter, which has a much more credible following than does Catholic League, agrees with anything Donohue's precipitated. It's sad that you converted to a faith that has so many beautiful traditions, and yet you go straight for supporting the crackpots, Kevin.

Posted on Jan 19, 2012 3:28:54 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Jan 19, 2012 3:30:51 PM PST
Today I was reminded of some of the redeeming aspects of the Catholic Church. The funeral Mass was beautifully orchestrated and took place in one of those lovely older churches that still have stained glass windows, ethereal architecture and the lingering scent of candles and incense. Quite lovely. The bishop who officiated provided a wonderful eulogy and an all-girls choir accompanied the congregation in song. It was a very fitting send off for a very deserving woman--a real Catholic, who did not begrudge being of service to victims of bad priests, right along with being of service to good priests. She 'got it' and when the bishop compared her to Mary the mother of Jesus, I nodded along in agreement.

Posted on Jan 19, 2012 3:34:34 PM PST
Kevin Bold says:
[Customers don't think this post adds to the discussion. Show post anyway. Show all unhelpful posts.]

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 19, 2012 3:49:34 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Jan 19, 2012 4:11:04 PM PST
Oh, Kevin, if only that would make up for the damage already done by credibly accused and convicted priests. Vindication of any priest still won't bring back the victims who committed suicide or restore the faith of those who survived. You go on defending 'falsely accused' priests and I'll go on defending real victims of bad priests. Like it or not.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 20, 2012 3:09:23 AM PST
Joe Anthony says:
Kevin Bold says:

"There was and is no "cover-up". Priests were not "shuffled about" to enable them. They were sent to therapists who naively pronounced them "cured", and then sent to other parishes. If you want to blame someone, blame these quack "therapists"...And third, blame the media and SNAP for keeping the scandal going. It sells papers, gets ratings, and fattens lawyers' bank accounts."

I say:

If there was no cover-up, explain why the abuse or the allegations of abuse weren't reported to the police. Explain why allegations of abuse weren't handled through the American justice system and not internally within the church.

When a person is a cardinal of the RCC and a priest is accused of abuse I don't expect the cardinal to quietly send the priest off to a retreat with a therapist. No; I would expect them to place the priest on a period of paid leave of absense, followed by a report with the police. From that point, the situation should be handled through the courts and the American justice system should determine guilt or innocence. Once that priest is cleared of any wrongdoing through the courts, then I would say that he could be restored to his priestly duties. If the priest is found guilty, then he should be de-frocked and face the penelty that the judge has ordered.

You might as well face it, Kevin, that he church was WRONG. When it comes to healing and forgiveness, the healing begins when the side who did the hurting admits that they were wrong and that they are sorry. If Donohue loves teh RCC as much as he says he does then he ought to stop blaming others for the sex scandals and say that the RCC was WRONG about EVERYTHING in regard to the sex scandals.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 20, 2012 4:44:52 AM PST
Joe, men like Kevin and Donohue have forgotten that Christ was about healing the suffering of others, rather than exploiting it or blaming victims for having been hurt by others. They are about defending false alter cristi in preference to being as Christ. Kevin is a convert to Catholicism--within the past six or seven years. What he took on as Christ's love and forgiveness for himself, he withholds from others he deems enemies of his Church. Likewise Donohue, though I believe he is a so-called cradle Catholic.

As I mentioned to him earlier, yesterday, I attended the funeral of a woman who truly exemplified the best of what can come from the Church. She was a lay Sister of Mercy who served as an archdiocesan outreach director to clergy abuse victim-survivors for the past 10 years, even as she was receiving treatment for cancer. She maintained contact with me and others even when we moved out of state for years at a time, via personal phone calls and holiday greeting cards, email and other notes. When needed, she provided additional assistance to victim-survivors ranging from authorization for therapy to gas money and job placement assistance, to having accompanied a woman to the funeral of her son's father--a priest who denied he'd fathered a son until the day he died.

This woman was an exemplary Catholic in her support of victim-survivors, and had the Archbishop of San Francisco and nearly a dozen other highly placed priests officiating at her funeral--including one bishop I know to be as supportive of victims as she was. He currently serves as head of a diocese in Salt Lake City, Utah.

There are certainly good Catholics still present in the Church, but those who engaged in cover-ups and those like Donohue and Kevin who continue to offer support to the undeserving, make it profoundly difficult to glean the good from the bad. You are indeed correct in reminding Kevin that the cover-ups detroyed a large part of the Church's credibility. Or why it needs more people--more priests--like my late friend the Sister of Mercy, to help rebuild it.

Posted on Jan 20, 2012 5:33:31 AM PST
Hmm -

I don't know any Catholics who "begrudge" victims of ANY crime support...

Nor do our teachings support such nonsense.

Posted on Jan 20, 2012 5:36:03 AM PST
One more time -

If someone is a victim of a crime, call the police. They will investigate the matter, and take the appropriate action...

Most people learn this as children, but I guess it bears repeating to at least some adults, anyway.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 20, 2012 5:47:16 AM PST
[Deleted by Amazon on Jan 29, 2012 9:48:36 AM PST]

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 20, 2012 5:48:31 AM PST
[Deleted by Amazon on Jan 29, 2012 9:48:37 AM PST]

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 20, 2012 5:51:32 AM PST
[Deleted by Amazon on Jan 29, 2012 9:48:37 AM PST]

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 20, 2012 5:54:59 AM PST
Kevin Bold says:
[Customers don't think this post adds to the discussion. Show post anyway. Show all unhelpful posts.]

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 20, 2012 6:00:05 AM PST
James I says:
You should look into just how rich the RCC is. Don't limit yourself to one area.

PAX

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 20, 2012 6:05:33 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Jan 20, 2012 6:20:27 AM PST
One more time-

You had a Church in which bishops signed child victims and their families to non-disclosure agreements about the abuse perpetratred against the children. The bishops also lied and said they were reporting priests to police when they would instead send them off for "therapy" and from there to new (unsuspecting) parishes. You had people who did not initiate police action independently of the bishops, and in particular not child victims. Even the children and teens who call SNAP to report having been abused by priests, are referred back to their parents and police. Or SNAP is doing what the bishops should have been doing in the first place.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 20, 2012 6:06:14 AM PST
Since when is being anti abuse cover ups, anti-Catholic?

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 20, 2012 6:09:46 AM PST
[Deleted by Amazon on Jan 29, 2012 9:48:38 AM PST]

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 20, 2012 6:15:37 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Jan 20, 2012 6:22:38 AM PST
People's Poet: I am not a Catholic. Though the Jesuit who abused me had ample opportunity to convert me, to be sure. But as he later said, he targeted non-Catholic women--or I was not the first--because he thought it was "less of a sin" to have sexual relations with non-Catholic women. Nevermind that it was in violation of his vow of chastity, and nevermind that he resorted to lies like saying he could keep women's confidences under his confessional seal,--which I later learned cannot be offered to non-Catholics, by any priest--or that he wanted to "marry" the women he exploited. That's why I initially went public with my story, because in parting he also told me about other women he planned to "be-friend." In short: he was pretty brazen with me about what he was doing and assumed no one would take me seriously even if I outed him or that I'd be too depressed and demoralized to fight back. I told him, later, that he'd picked on the wrong woman. And he has apologized to me since for having been "extremely selfish, in having only thought about what (he) wanted out of the relationship."

I've mentioned this before but wanted to add that my late maternal grandmother was Catholic, and the Jesuit had even her convinced that he was going to leave the priesthood to marry me. So, bad enough he duped me. I can forgive that. Duping my devout Catholic grandmother is another matter.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 20, 2012 6:16:14 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Jan 20, 2012 6:16:28 AM PST
Nice response People's Poet!

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 20, 2012 6:29:52 AM PST
[Deleted by Amazon on Jan 29, 2012 9:48:40 AM PST]

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 20, 2012 6:30:36 AM PST
glenn says:
Kevin,
1. The 42% increase from 2009 to 2010 sounds like a lot. do you know the actual numbers of false accusations?
2. The paragraph on repressed memory lawsuits (actually Nexis hits) implies that SNAP was involved in them. Do you know the actual number that SNAP was involved in?
3. Do you think we are really defending ourselves when we attack those who are attacking us?

4. I'm not sure that accusing David Clohessey of also not calling the police on his abusive Priest brother strengthens the RC position. Did his Bishop call the police?

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 20, 2012 6:30:53 AM PST
[Deleted by Amazon on Jan 29, 2012 9:48:41 AM PST]

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 20, 2012 6:46:58 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Jan 20, 2012 6:49:47 AM PST
I used to live in New Mexico, about three hours driving distance from where the Servants of the Paraclete facility--which is only one of many like it in the USA that exists soley to treat Catholic priests--still exists. I also knew two former employees of the place, one of them a woman I worked with at a newspaper. Or the critics attempts to retroatively mitigate the magnitude of the problem that existed in the Church are overlooking facts like the following:

"Gerald Michael Cushing Fitzgerald (October 29, 1894 South Framingham, Massachusetts - June 28, 1969) was an American Roman Catholic priest, who began his ministry as a priest in the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Boston and later became a member of the Congregation of Holy Cross. He is best known as the founder of the Congregation of the Servants of the Paraclete which operates centers for priests dealing with challenges such as alcoholism, substance abuse and sexuality. In 2009, the media focused attention on the unsealing of his papers which revealed that he had campaigned vigorously to American bishops and the Vatican in the 1950s and 1960s against the return of sexually abusive priests to parish work, arguing that such priests were effectively untreatable...

in a 1952 letter to Bishop Robert Dwyer of Reno, Fitzgerald wrote:

"I myself would be inclined to favor laicization for any priest, upon objective evidence, for tampering with the virtue of the young, my argument being, from this point onward the charity to the Mystical Body should take precedence over charity to the individual, [...] Moreover, in practice, real conversions will be found to be extremely rare [...] Hence, leaving them on duty or wandering from diocese to diocese is contributing to scandal or at least to the approximate danger of scandal."

In 1957 Fitzgerald wrote to the bishop of Manchester, New Hampshire:

"We are amazed to find how often a man who would be behind bars if he were not a priest is entrusted with the cura animarum."

In a letter written in 1957 to Archbishop Byrne, his ecclesiastical sponsor and co-founder of the Paracletes, Fitzgerald wrote:

"May I beg your excellency to concur and approve of what I consider a very vital decision on our part - that we will not offer hospitality to men who have seduced or attempted to seduce little boys or girls. These men Your Excellency are devils and the wrath of God is upon them and if I were a bishops I would tremble when I failed to report them to Rome for involuntary laicization....It is for this class of rattlesnake I have always wished the island retreat - but even an island is too good for these vipers of whom the Gentle master said - it were better they had not been born - this is an indirect way of saying damned, is it not? When I see the Holy Father I am going to speak of this class to his Holiness."

In April 1962, Fitzgerald prepared a report at the request of the Congregation of the Holy Office in which he discussed the various types of sexual problems of priests, including sexual abuse of minors.

In April 1962, Fitzgerald wrote a five-page response to a query from the Vatican's Congregation of the Holy Office about "the tremendous problem presented by the priest who through lack of priestly self-discipline has become a problem to Mother Church." One of his recommendations was for "a more distinct teaching in the last years of the seminary of the heavy penalty involved in tampering with the innocence (or even non-innocence) of little ones." Regarding priests who have "fallen into repeated sins ... and most especially the abuse of children, we feel strongly that such unfortunate priests should be given the alternative of a retired life within the protection of monastery walls or complete laicization."

In August of the following year, he met with newly elected Pope Paul VI to inform him about his work and problems he perceived in the priesthood. His follow-up letter contained this assessment: "Personally I am not sanguine of the return of priests to active duty who have been addicted to abnormal practices, especially sins with the young. However, the needs of the church must be taken into consideration and an activation of priests who have seemingly recovered in this field may be considered but is only recommended where careful guidance and supervision is possible. Where there is indication of incorrigibility, because of the tremendous scandal given, I would most earnestly recommend total laicization."

Fitzgerald's papers were unsealed by a judge in New Mexico in 2007 and were authenticated in depositions with Fitzgerald's successors, said Helen Zukin, a lawyer with Kiesel, Boucher & Larson, a firm in Los Angeles.

Plan for an island retreat

Fitzgerald developed a vision for a retreat on a remote island in the Caribbean in which he would house sequester priests who were sexual predators for the remainder of their lives. His motives were a desire to save the church from scandal and to save laypeople from being victimized. In 1957, Fitzgerald mentioned this idea in a letter to Archbishop Byrne, his ecclesiastical sponsor and co-founder of the Paracletes:

"May I beg your Excellency to concur and approve of what I consider a very vital decision on our part - that we will not offer hospitality to men who have seduced or attempted to seduce little boys or girls. These men Your Excellency are devils and the wrath of God is upon them and if I were a bishop I would tremble when I failed to report them to Rome for involuntary laicization....It is for this class of rattlesnake I have always wished the island retreat - but even an island is too good for these vipers of whom the Gentle master said - it were better they had not been born - this is an indirect way of saying damned, is it not? When I see the Holy Father I am going to speak of this class to his Holiness."
[Add comment]
Add your own message to the discussion
To insert a product link use the format: [[ASIN:ASIN product-title]] (What's this?)
Prompts for sign-in
 


Recent discussions in the Christianity forum

Discussion Replies Latest Post
Announcement
Amazon Discussions Feedback Forum
620 Feb 14, 2015
Can Christianity be saved from the harm done by Literalist ID/Creationist End Times fundies: Part the Eighth 1401 2 minutes ago
Our Redemption Draweth Nigh... God's Prophetic clock is counting down! Part Two 2419 3 minutes ago
Seriously starting to change my mind about atheism. Can someone tell me why I'm wrong 795 5 minutes ago
The Restored Church of Jesus Christ 5098 12 minutes ago
Catholic-Protestant Discussion Part XXIX 8009 16 minutes ago
Part 6 - the new thread 5192 33 minutes ago
Coinage exists for Herod the Great (he was named in the Book of Mathew) 2 43 minutes ago
The Wedding Cake for anti-gays 1707 49 minutes ago
What does the cross mean to you? 982 1 hour ago
Do you follow the 10 Commandment! 137 1 hour ago
moment-of-broken-ness, part 2 8256 2 hours ago
 

This discussion

Discussion in:  Christianity forum
Participants:  53
Total posts:  1920
Initial post:  Aug 29, 2011
Latest post:  Apr 6, 2014

New! Receive e-mail when new posts are made.
Tracked by 3 customers

Search Customer Discussions