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Part IV: Call for Reform in the Catholic Church--Why and what is needed to effect much needed change!

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Initial post: Sep 2, 2012 10:57:12 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Sep 2, 2012 10:58:31 AM PDT
This is a continuation of Part III. If you want to reference posts in previous discussion go to: http://www.amazon.com/forum/christianity/ref=cm_cd_pg_pg1?_encoding=UTF8&cdForum=Fx77WQHU8YS50Z&cdPage=1&cdThread=Tx3SGLK7KPXBJPB

In reply to an earlier post on Sep 2, 2012 11:15:57 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Sep 2, 2012 11:21:01 AM PDT
Lugh says:
Can we have some new points to consider? How about, what should be the role of the church in the modern world? So much of what has been discussed takes us back to the Dark Ages and doesn't work today.

How should the church develop and respond to the spiritual needs of the people? Preaching, dictating, making up rules doesn't get you to heaven, it only gets children started, you have to become confident and grown-up, make your own decisions and be sure of them to reach God. Surely the church has some way to do what the european rebel priests are doing and introduce philosophy, discussion, meditation: then any rules might start to make sense.

In reply to an earlier post on Sep 2, 2012 11:23:25 AM PDT
Lugh, feel free to propose whatever. As I posted on Part III -- which still isn't quite finished -- my participation in this new thread is going to be very minimal and sporadic. I'm not driving this. Also, do check back on Page 400 of III, so that can wrap up with at least one intelligent post. Meaning, you. ;-D

Posted on Sep 2, 2012 11:52:27 AM PDT
[Deleted by Amazon on Sep 6, 2012 5:04:54 PM PDT]

Posted on Sep 2, 2012 11:59:37 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Sep 2, 2012 4:01:57 PM PDT
This is response to Patricia, from post on previous discussion:

No, I think it's more like the government has tried to take a check and balance attitude toward churches. It might very well cost the government more to yank churches tax-exempt status, than it does to continue trying to make the best of having delegated out some of the burden of providing welfare to the poor, to churches.

But that still doesn't make it right for churches to push for wielding even more political clout, with unrelated issues. Opposing the HHS Mandate is relevant to church and state having allied -- for better or worse -- in joint provision of general healthcare.

BUT the funding of political initiatives by churches opposing same sex civil unions, in no way whatsoever relates to the churches existing alliances with government, in provision of healthcare. Or opposition to same sex civil unions is what is most likely to legally backlash on churches.

In reply to an earlier post on Sep 2, 2012 12:12:01 PM PDT
I am here, Alexandra.

Lugh, I would love to discuss the church's role in the modern world. I would like to discuss what it could be and how that role can be achieved. I would prefer not dwelling in the past.

Currently all of your suggestions are being used: philosophy, discussion, meditation are all being used at one level or another.

As I have said before, the Catholic Church is a very adult church. That does not mean that it is for adults only, but rather it treats its adult members as adults. Usually people disagree with me and start talking about "pay, pray, and obey." But that is not the Church it is merely a perception of the church.

If you do not wish to pay, stop paying; if you do not wish to pray, stop praying; if you do not wish to obey, stop obeying. And what will the church do to you? Absolutely nothing, except forgive you and welcome you back when you choose to come back.

Such a church is what is needed in the modern world. A church that does not buckle under the pressure of the culture, a church that holds steadfast to the teachings of God, a church that recognizes that people will sin and offers them forgiveness when they seek it, a church that guides and teaches.

In reply to an earlier post on Sep 2, 2012 12:13:40 PM PDT
Backlash how?

In reply to an earlier post on Sep 2, 2012 12:26:46 PM PDT
Alexandra, it will never be finished....dont try to put your hope in a ship that has sunk even before it left the bay

hope is found in a person, the Son of God, Son of Man, The Word made flesh, The Amen, Christ the Lord of hosts

In reply to an earlier post on Sep 2, 2012 12:36:47 PM PDT
Lugh says:
Patricia J. Senneville says: "Such a church is what is needed in the modern world. A church that does not buckle under the pressure of the culture, a church that holds steadfast to the teachings of God, a church that recognizes that people will sin and offers them forgiveness when they seek it, a church that guides and teaches."

All these things are good and at parish level, or in private discussion with theologians they are there. What is missing is a statement from above that now is time to change. Instead we see petulant foot-stamping that opposes the demands of thinking, educated and spiritual Catholics who are already instigating change. Instead they make threats against 'rebel' priests, though they haven't quite gone as far as excommunicating their congregations.

When you look at what is happening in Europe, you can see that the 'rebel' priests carry on regardless of Rome. Why should they care if the hierarchy can't keep up? The lords in Rome need the educated priests and congregations more than the parishioners need them. After all, the precedent is set in Roman stone: II. THE DEFINITION OF SIN
1849 Sin is an offense against reason, truth, and right conscience ... Quod erat demonstrandum!

In reply to an earlier post on Sep 2, 2012 12:48:41 PM PDT
Clarke N Out is correct in pointing back to the person believed to be the founder of Christianity and in turn the Catholic Church. What is more important? Survival of the Catholic Church or the teachings of Christ? And please don't tell me they're synonymous, because that is no longer true.

In reply to an earlier post on Sep 2, 2012 12:52:46 PM PDT
Why, Alexandra, do you say it is no longer true?

In reply to an earlier post on Sep 2, 2012 12:54:27 PM PDT
Hi Alexandra, what is more important is the teachings of Christ!

and no, the survival of the catholic insitution and the teachings of Christ is not synonymous at all, so rest assured my friend i wont tell you that

In reply to an earlier post on Sep 2, 2012 12:56:03 PM PDT
because it has never been true, it only had a form of godliness, it only had cups washed on the outside, and had beautiful white wall tombs

In reply to an earlier post on Sep 2, 2012 12:56:23 PM PDT
I really thought that was what VCII was all about. Change. What changes are needed? Isn't that what the thread is about?

In reply to an earlier post on Sep 2, 2012 12:59:51 PM PDT
I respectfully disagree with you.

In reply to an earlier post on Sep 2, 2012 1:01:23 PM PDT
What is needed is the survival the teachings of Christ, and, IMHO, the Catholic Church has preserved the teachings of Jesus Christ.

In reply to an earlier post on Sep 2, 2012 1:03:42 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Sep 2, 2012 1:04:52 PM PDT
Hi patricia,i appreciate your response back to me, i only hope that you may see that what catholism is, is just like along the same thoughts and intentions what jeroboam had....plainly put: wanting to control men, all in the name of saying its governed and approved by God for his own beneficial gain and desires

In reply to an earlier post on Sep 2, 2012 1:06:19 PM PDT
Lugh says:
Patricia J. Senneville says: "... the Catholic Church has preserved the teachings of Jesus Christ."
A greater emphasis on "unconditional love" would be nice.

Posted on Sep 2, 2012 1:10:20 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Sep 2, 2012 1:25:56 PM PDT
theres no need to "no" vote

thank you for the non agreement

Posted on Sep 2, 2012 1:16:34 PM PDT
Given the fact that there are now FOUR parts to this discussion, wouldn't it be fair to say that continuing is an epic effort in futility and maybe the time spent could be used for more productive endeavors?

In reply to an earlier post on Sep 2, 2012 1:23:13 PM PDT
[Deleted by Amazon on Sep 6, 2012 5:05:04 PM PDT]

Posted on Sep 2, 2012 1:32:24 PM PDT
I think the following would be a useful reference for this discussion, among many. This was given to me by a mother superior who once worked in the Vatican. She is now serving in an eastern European country as a human rights advocate for women and children--specifically those being enslaved, and globally trafficked for sexual exploitation and production of pornography.

That aside, the following is produced by people who work within the Vatican. Referencing this plus external sources should give you plenty with which facilitate an informed and lively discussion.

http://vaticaninsider.lastampa.it/en/homepage/the-vatican/

In reply to an earlier post on Sep 2, 2012 1:33:56 PM PDT
No more "futile" than the Mary Sinless thread being on its fifth inception! And I daresay there is far more worthwhile content being provided on our discussion, than the other.

In reply to an earlier post on Sep 2, 2012 1:50:00 PM PDT
How would you like "unconditional love" demonstrated?

Posted on Sep 2, 2012 1:54:16 PM PDT
I agree with you, Alexandra. I stuck with this one because it gave me something to think about.
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Initial post:  Sep 2, 2012
Latest post:  Dec 30, 2012

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