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Christ vs Leftism


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Initial post: Dec 19, 2012 4:55:50 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 20, 2012 4:50:09 AM PST
Sir Pugsly says:
Leftism is a fear based philosophy: it sees a world that is "red in tooth and claw"...and strives for safety via 3 converging paths. Path #1--fear-based...Survival ethics......the world is a dangerous place....I must do whatever it takes to survive, there is no morality higher than my survival. Thus, Lefties think it OK to dictate everything they think is SAFE...from how big a soda you can drink to rubberized play grounds....etc. Health and Saftey concerns explode when Leftism takes over. Path #2-- the fear of the Strong. The Strong will manipulate the Weak unless the Weak band together and control them. Thus, we see a fear of the "big" business, the "big" banks, those with "big" money...etc. Heck, these people fear WALMART. Path #3--Nature ethics...everything evolved randomly and without meaning...therefore all of nature is of equal worth.
All 3 of these paths converge into a modern day push for a wacky environmentalist big government protector of the Weak.
Now, a Christian should not live in fear at all. Christian hold human dignity and freedom as high priorities, not because we fear the "strong"...but because we honor the everlasting value of the human soul.
We pushed for safety nets against manipulations of the strong in business and society...but NOT out of fear. But because it was the right and moral thing to do....we were the force behind unions and human rights...and labor laws and suffergettes and civil rights movements.
Without God's Law you merely have a fear-filled governmental reaction to society...which leads to a loss of freedom at each "crisis. The Left today will actually make up a crisis to gain more power over others....eg...global warming, the health care crisis in the US, the "obesity" crisis...etc.

Posted on Dec 19, 2012 5:45:36 AM PST
Palladin55 says:
"Without God's Law you merely have a fear-filled governmental reaction to society...which leads to a loss of freedom at each "crisis. "

Sorry, but we don't have "God's Law" in the U.S. We don't stone people for adultery, homosexuality or working on the Sabbath. We have secular laws enacted through rational discussion by humans. You are confusing religious belief with political belief. There are devout and very fine Christians who are also on the political left.

Posted on Dec 19, 2012 5:56:05 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 19, 2012 5:56:37 AM PST
Brian Curtis says:
In addition to your many false characterizations and stereotyping, I note that conservatism (specifically, authoritarianism) is the true fear-based ideology, and what you label 'fear of big entities' is the preservation of individual liberties... one of our finest American principles.

Further, any theory that purports to explain EVERY aspect of society is inherently worthless. If your story can be stretched to explain everything from religion to healthcare to the environment, it's an ideology (i.e., garbage).

Finally: If Christ were actually opposed to leftism, he would be an immoral hypocrite.

(dusting hands) That was an easy one. What else ya got?

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 19, 2012 5:56:42 AM PST
E. Boyd,

You are a liar, deceiver, and hyprocrite. Jesus son of Joseph was the BIGGEST liberal in history!

"The Christian Right is neither!"

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 19, 2012 10:19:10 AM PST
"Leftism" is a word you just made up.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 19, 2012 10:49:40 AM PST
Astrocat says:
Leftism? Never heard of it, so I looked it up, and there seems to be a lot of angry Rightists out there, denouncing those who think right human relations is the hope for humanity. The Rightists, who are definitely anti-Christ, anti-Buddha, anti-Krishna, would love to have everyone living in fear of all others, carrying guns and shooting at the slightest insult. When you define "leftism", you're really trying to pull the wool over people's eyes, because you're defining yourselves, instead, the uber-conservatives among us. When you speak of "fear" you're speaking of your own fear of annihilation, being doomed to hell and so on. You're not fooling anyone.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 19, 2012 2:04:44 PM PST
DocMMV says:
Classic liberal. Not modern liberal. Same as the Founding Fathers in America. They were classic liberals. Today's liberals are nothing like those people, nothing like Jesus, and there is nothing to like about them.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 19, 2012 2:19:52 PM PST
Joe W says:
E Boyd: Now, a Christian should not live in fear at all. Christian hold human dignity and freedom as high priorities, not because we fear the "strong"...but because we honor the everlasting value of human soul.

We pushed for safety nets against manipulations of the strong in business and society...but NOT out of fear. But because it was the right and moral thing to do....we were the force behind unions and human rights...and labor laws and suffergettes and civil rights movements.
Without God's Law you merely have a fear-filled governmental reaction to society...which leads to a loss of freedom at each "crisis. The Left today will actually make up a crisis to gain more power over others....eg...global warming, the health care crisis in the US, the "obesity" crisis...etc.

Joe: The people who were against unions and human rights...and labor laws and suffergettes and civil rights movements were Christians, too. And those were the Christians who represented the Christian worldview for more than 17 centuries. It is not reasonable to assign the credit for social change to Christianity. Save perhaps in that Christianity can reconcile itself with any ethic.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 19, 2012 2:27:20 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 19, 2012 3:03:24 PM PST
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In reply to an earlier post on Dec 19, 2012 2:33:21 PM PST
Joe W says:
What is a 'modern liberal'? Do you have a definition of fact handy?

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 19, 2012 3:11:39 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 19, 2012 3:12:16 PM PST
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In reply to an earlier post on Dec 19, 2012 3:22:17 PM PST
At some point, labels cease to be useful shortcuts, and instead become impediments to clear communication.

No one person's constellation of beliefs, knowledge, attitudes and biases can be encompassed by a single label... and the fact that a label is assigned to a particular person does not imply that that person, and every other person to whom that label is assigned, all think, believe, and do the same things, all for the same reasons.

I'm not a "classical liberal", "modern liberal", "liberal", or "conservative."

I'm me. I have my own ideas, arrived at by my own methods, supported by my own reasoning and evidence.

Labels are certainly easier than finding out the details of the people you interact with... but people aren't under any obligation to fit the caricature a particular label implies.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 19, 2012 3:27:29 PM PST
In my experience, what can best be described as being a "fear-based philosophy" is that mindset which, when confronted with rapid technological and social changes - particularly those social changes which bring with them greater individual freedom for self-expression, behavior, etc., or which attempt to redress old inequalities and injustices - reacts with fear and anger to those changes, and demands that we "turn the clock back" to an imagined simpler time which aligns with older social norms and attitudes.

Often, this fear-based philosophy is held by individuals in social groups which were once dominant, have seen that dominance fade in the face of a more egalitarian society, and desire to have that dominance re-asserted.

This fear-based philosophy will often exhibit anti-intellectual traits and a distrust of modern science. This is not surprising, as science has been one of the major engines of change in our society.

Note that nowhere in my post do I single out any one particular group, and instead address a particular mind-set... a mind-set which can be held by anyone.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 19, 2012 3:31:24 PM PST
E. Boyd,

First, let me say that I am not a "Leftist." Rather than label myself, I will just say that I think a third of the national government should be reduced and/or eliminated. I think it is tragic that we are 16 trillion dollars in debt. I see the debt as indicative of how poorly we have governed ourselves in the last 30 years or so. If anything, I wish our politicians feared the consequences of short-term thinking.

I'm amazed you say the following, "Now a Christian should not live in fear at all."

I must say that the source book for Judaism and the Christian faith are very much fear based. For all the talk of the "love of God," it is only the flip side of "the fear of God."

Your source book says:

"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom..." Psalm 111:10
"The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring forever..." Psalm 19:9
"There is no fear of God before their eyes." Romans 3:18
The list could go on.

Let me take your statement, "Heck these people fear WALMART." Many thoughtful people, from the Left and the Right, have questioned the downside of Walmart. They question if it is a good thing to become a nation of box stores to the extent that we have. Is there no value in mom and pop stores? Can they compete with a Walmart? Does the economic complexion change in a community when a Walmart moves in? These are rational concerns.

You say, "Without God's Law you merely have a fear-filled governmental reaction to society...which leads to loss of freedom at each crisis."

That is an interesting statement. In light of the fear scriptures I give above, I think your statement proves false. In a society run by "God's law," two women who love each other would be in fear of openly stating so, much less getting married. In a society run by "God's law," slaves would live in fear of their masters. Just read Frederick Douglass. In a society run by God's law, a woman who made a sexual mistake (adultery) would fear being killed by the "righteous." Do you see how far we have come in the West? No form of government is perfect, but democracy is better at reducing fear than "God's law." That is the way I see it. I invite your comments.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 19, 2012 5:18:30 PM PST
Sir Pugsly says:
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In reply to an earlier post on Dec 19, 2012 5:21:51 PM PST
Sir Pugsly says:
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In reply to an earlier post on Dec 19, 2012 5:29:33 PM PST
Sir Pugsly says:
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Posted on Dec 19, 2012 5:30:43 PM PST
B-Jak says:
DocMMV's profile says: "Gray hair is a crown of splendor; it is attained by a righteous life"

You've seen pictures of Charlie Manson recently? Your profile makes as much sense as the rest of the crap you post on here.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 19, 2012 5:44:52 PM PST
Sir Pugsly says:
Michael...your "in my experience" post was quite lucid and well thought out....thank you. All I have to say to it is that you need to study history a bit to see how certain mind-sets (let's call these "mind-sets"...philosophies) play out with peace and prosperity or bloodshed. Leftism always has played out with massive authoritarian control and blood shed. Last century...led to about 100 million deaths.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 19, 2012 5:52:24 PM PST
Sir Pugsly says:
E. Quest.....Thank you for the interesting reply........I enjoyed reading it. First of all we live in a republic...not a democracy....here in America. "Republic" refers to being guided by law...and the Judeo-Christian set up and running of this powerfully successful nation...is a testimony against your post.
"The fear of the Lord" is an expression that refers to basic knowledge. If your child is so small that they need to be told not to touch fire or cross the freeway on foot....then you are not trying to "frighten them" by explaining the basics of our world. Neither is God trying to terrify you when He ask you to understand the basics of your relationship with Him.....yes, the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 19, 2012 6:03:21 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 20, 2012 4:42:40 AM PST
Sir Pugsly says:
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In reply to an earlier post on Dec 19, 2012 6:08:50 PM PST
"Michael....by saying that no one has the right to summarize ideas with a name...you cut off castrate language itself.....to bleed the floors of your own private Babylon."

Very flowery... but not much in the way of content.

A label is a generalization, an abstraction.

Also, I never said "... that no one has the right to summarize ideas with a name ..." (and I'm frankly baffled as to how you got that from the words I wrote).

What I *actually* said was that when you place a *label* on a *person*, you run the risk of fooling yourself into believing that this person, and every other person to whom that label is assigned, all think, believe, and do the same things for the same reasons.

Do you object to what I *actually* said, and, if so, on what basis?

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 19, 2012 6:10:36 PM PST
"Leftism always has played out with massive authoritarian control and blood shed. Last century...led to about 100 million deaths."

What are the elements of this mind-set which you call "Leftism"?

Am I a "Leftist", for example?

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 19, 2012 9:30:47 PM PST
Joe W says:
Ok. From that I gather that you consider those who took over the Democratic Party to be modern liberals. But i have the sense that I get when I hear the term is that it is applied with far greater scope. I, for instance, support individual liberty, freedom of speech and the press. And because of that, I support the legal availability of on-demand abortion. As as result I am called a modern liberal. On the other hand I support the private ownership of guns, and as a result am called a right-wing gun nut by others (though I own no guns and haven't fired one since my teens.) The terms seem to be more of an epithet, IMHO, than descriptive.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 19, 2012 9:50:42 PM PST
Joe W says:
E Boyd: [Y]ou really need to study the 100 year history of the Social Gospel movement...which brought unions into being.

Joe: Which formed after the Enlightenment and (later)socialism introduced the concepts. Christians adopted these ideas from philosophies external to Christianity and incorporated them into their religion.

You are still ignoring the fact that the people who were against the social advancements you cite were also Christians.
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Discussion in:  Christianity forum
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Initial post:  Dec 19, 2012
Latest post:  Apr 21, 2013

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