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Hey, Rocky! Watch Me Pull a Rabbit out of My Hat!


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Showing 1-12 of 12 posts in this discussion
Initial post: Nov 2, 2012 8:49:43 AM PDT
Ambulocetus says:
Having read some Lee Strobel, C.S. Lewis, and Chuck Colson, I have come to the unavoidable conclusion that Christian apologetics is like Bullwinkle pulling a rabbit out of his hat. "But that trick NEVER works!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRW7pITY5Cg

Here's why:
1) It is commonly argued that without a deity, there can be no firm basis for moral law. But what does a deity add? Either we should do what is moral because God is super-awesome, or because he will torture us if we don't, or because our lives just naturally go better insofar as we follow God's law.

But in what world does admiration of someone or fear of their threats yield morally desirable behavior? And if following God's law naturally makes everything go better for us--why not just be moral for THAT reason? Why bother adding a God-concept?

2) The universe is nearly 14 billion years old. It is made up of over 100 billion galaxies, each of which has over 100 billion stars. If God is the Creator of all this, or the "ground of being" of all this, in what sense can He meaningfully be said to be human-like? You can't have a personal relationship with Being. But if God is human-like, in what sense could he possibly be the Creator of such an unimaginably vast universe?

3) The ancient Greeks, the ancient Mesopotamians, the ancient Egyptians, as well as modern Jews, Muslims, and Christians all have deities. Let's assume for the sake of argument that at least one being exists which is worth calling a deity. On what basis can we argue that THIS mythological system's deity is more likely to exist than THAT one's? And what differentiates Christianity from any of these other mythological systems? They all have resurrections, miracles, and virgin births, after all.
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Virgin_birth#Special_conception_in_other_religions

4) Theists like to claim that the universe could not possibly have just popped up out of nowhere--it MUST have had a cause. But before the universe, there could have been no space or time, and without space and time, there can be no causality. Why apply an inside-the-universe concept to outside-the universe?

Besides, however unlikely it may seem that the UNIVERSE has always existed, or that the UNIVERSE just popped into existence out of nowhere, how much less likely is it that a DEITY has always existed, or just popped into existence out of nowhere? After all, a deity must, by definition, be larger and more complicated than a universe.

These arguments (none of them original, probably) show why I see Christian apologetics as a doomed and silly enterprise. Am I missing something here?

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 2, 2012 9:04:30 AM PDT
You're missing the deep spiritual meaning of the Rocky and Bullwinkle Show. Bullwinkle is Everyman, Rocky is the inherent goodness in all of us, Boris and Natasha are the twin devils of short/fat versus tall/skinny, and the Wayback Machine is the Conscience, key to Genuine Remorse and Redemption.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 2, 2012 9:36:06 AM PDT
Isaiah 55:8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Job 38

38 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.

4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 2, 2012 11:58:43 AM PDT
af

'Time wounds all heels.'

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 2, 2012 12:27:17 PM PDT
Proverbs 3:12.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 2, 2012 1:15:49 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Nov 2, 2012 1:19:49 PM PDT
Astrocat says:
From the Hayden Planetarium:

"There are about 80-100 billion galaxies in the observable universe, that is, that part of the universe visible to us. There may be more in that part of the Universe beyond our observable limit, which occurs about 400,000 years after the Big Bang. Before that time, the universe remains opaque to us. It's like trying to see through a dense fog. After this time, the "fog" lifted and light could traverse the universe. This occurred because the universe expanded and cooled, allowing electrons to pair with protons and light to travel without bumping into the free electrons.

The mind blowing thing to think about is all the stars in these galaxies... Our Milky Way has roughly 200 billion stars. While we've discovered over 300 planets outside our Solar System, the galaxy must be filled with trillions of planets. Now think about each of those 100 billion galaxies in our observable universe. Each has hundreds of billions of stars and probably trillions of planets too. Do any of them harbor life? We do not know, and we may never know. But we continue to look."

The interesting thing about the "virgin birth/dying god" mythologies is that you can present the information proving that the Christian myth was lifted almost word for word from these stories, and some Christians will continue to deny to their very last breath that this is true. Their ability to come up with all kinds of objections, from the "false god" ideas to the idea that well, these were all forerunners for Jesus, sort of a backstage preparation for the "real" thing, and on and on. The facts are there, the proof is obvious, but the blinders stay on and the truth rejected. it's really fascinating.

Posted on Nov 4, 2012 6:14:05 AM PST
Nancy,

You are absolutely correct.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 4, 2012 2:27:14 PM PST
A Customer says:
"2) The universe is nearly 14 billion years old. It is made up of over 100 billion galaxies, each of which has over 100 billion stars. If God is the Creator of all this, or the "ground of being" of all this, in what sense can He meaningfully be said to be human-like? You can't have a personal relationship with Being. But if God is human-like, in what sense could he possibly be the Creator of such an unimaginably vast universe?"

Who says that God is "human-like"?

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 5, 2012 5:28:42 AM PST
Ambulocetus says:
"Who says that God is 'human-like'?"

Every theistic tradition I have ever encountered. One can have personal relationship with God, God has emotional responses to things, human beings are created "in his image," etc.

Only in certain mystical traditions does God lack this human-like-ness, but even here personal relationship is possible. To at least this extent, then, anything worth calling "God" must be human-like.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 5, 2012 5:54:08 AM PST
A Customer says:
Grown-up Christian theology teaches that God is pure Spirit, is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. If anyone thinks this is "human-like" they've been reading too many children's books. When the bible says God created man in "his image", it is stating that in addition to a material body He gave man a soul with the spiritual faculties of Intellect and Will. It is *this* ability of the Spirit to Know and Love, which are the actions of Intellect and Will, which allows us to say man is created in God's "image".

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 5, 2012 7:43:02 AM PST
Ambulocetus says:
So it's NOT possible for human beings to speak to God through prayer, to interact with God through meditation on scripture, or to "listen" to God's voice in their hearts (or, sometimes, their ears)?

Either God is being-itself, the ground of being for the entire cosmos, or it is possible to have a personal relationship with Him. I fail to see how the two can be brought together in any sensible way except through force of will.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 5, 2012 8:24:03 AM PST
A Customer says:
I just said that God is a pure Spirit, and the two faculties of spirit are Intellect and Will. It is these two faculties that allow a spirit to Know and Love. Christianity simply says that the being behind the operation of the universe is not some amorphous "thing" lacking in intellectual faculties. Turning to the Platonic understanding of this, we can say when human beings Reason they are exercising in a finite and fallible way the infinite Reasoning powers in God.
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Discussion in:  Christianity forum
Participants:  7
Total posts:  12
Initial post:  Nov 2, 2012
Latest post:  Nov 5, 2012

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