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is perfect obedience possible?


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Initial post: Nov 27, 2012 6:49:23 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Nov 27, 2012 6:50:47 PM PST
Agapao says:
I really find it hard to believe that Christians claim to live perfectly in their flesh. Usually when you think you have mastered something in your life, some other evil crops up in its place. Sometimes it is like you're taking one step forward and two steps back. I don't blame God; it is our old dead sinful flesh and Satan's deception that pulls us down. WHY DO YOU THINK YOU CAN LIVE PEFECTLY IN THE FLESH OR TELL ME WHY WE CANNOT?

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 27, 2012 6:59:02 PM PST
S. Kessler says:
The essential problem here is the thinking by many Christians that there is some state of perfection that can never be reached because humans are basically sinful. And that there is something wrong with this that requires an outside force to save us from a terrible fate that is inevitable because we are so naturally sinful.

Well, the truth is that there is no such thing as perfection. Perfection is not possible and never was and never will be. Humans are flawed. Not sinful, but flawed. It is a natural thing to be flawed. Christians have created this "perfect" god whose perfection we can never live up to, and this puts us all in a state of peril. What nonsense. While I am not a believer in God, gods, or other supernatural entities, I can at least appreciate the Jewish take on the idea of what God expects from humans. The Jewish position is that God does not expect perfection from his creations. All he asks is that they atone for their mistakes, ask forgiveness of those they've wronged, and try to do better going forward. There is no need to drive oneself crazy feeling inadequate for not being perfect when there is no expectation of perfection.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 27, 2012 7:25:05 PM PST
mrs exp says:
MDS,
For myself no matter how I try I always do something I shouldn't or don't do something I should.

I think it is because we still have our sin nature and while we (me at least) have given up my worst sins. I do still sin sometimes much to my regret.
exp

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 27, 2012 8:36:52 PM PST
no

and true christians admit it
but keep trying to improve
knowing perfection here is nto possible

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 27, 2012 8:51:13 PM PST
Romans 7

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 27, 2012 9:03:41 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Nov 27, 2012 9:12:11 PM PST
Heaven101 says:
It is impossible to live "perfectly" as long as you are "in" the flesh, "but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God" - Ro 8:13b & 14

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 27, 2012 9:31:20 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Nov 27, 2012 9:39:21 PM PST
Agapao says:
Is the death that you and the Bible speak of, is it our association with the death of Christ? "Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death," (Romans 6:4). or is it by literallly killing sin?
How does the Spirit of God led you into killing the misdeeds of the body? Do you never commit the same sin twice? Once dead to sin are you always dead to sin? How many times do you miss the mark before your perfect?

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 27, 2012 9:36:50 PM PST
Agapao says:
What is it that I am suppose to see? I believe the law is good. Verse 24 says, who shall deliver me from the body of this death? The body is sinful. Are we to deliver ourselves and perfect the flesh? What do you want me to see in Romans 7.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 27, 2012 10:20:20 PM PST
There are a couple key verses there:

(Rom 7)
v. 17 -- But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

This is the old nature. Our sin nature, the one we ALL are born with. We as believers will struggle with sin until we are dead or Christ returns.

v. 19-20 -- For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

There is no longer a head-long running with open arm INTO sin, at least there shouldn't be. There SHOULD be internal conflict if we have truly been saved.

MDS -- Are we to deliver ourselves and perfect the flesh?

We CANNOT do this. That IS why Christ died, Jesus delivers us. The answer is in verses 24 & 25

24 O wretched man that I am! WHO will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God-through JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD!

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 27, 2012 10:26:15 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Nov 27, 2012 10:26:41 PM PST
Agapao says:
You explained yourself very well. I now know what you mean. Thanks.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 27, 2012 10:31:16 PM PST
You're welcome!

Posted on Nov 28, 2012 5:53:48 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Nov 28, 2012 5:54:26 AM PST
Brian Curtis says:
"Is perfect obedience possible?"

I certainly hope not, and I'm appalled that anyone would consider it a worthwhile goal in the first place. Why not just dig out your brain with a spoon?

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 28, 2012 6:04:48 AM PST
Heaven101 says:
I will answer your questions but first, are you a follower of Christ? If so, is He the Son of God--born of the virgin birth, died and rose from the dead three days later?

Please don't be offended. I only ask because in my answers the only "proof" I'm going to provide will be supporting scripture to explain why I believe what I believe. I don't really want to discuss this particular subject with atheists or anti-theists or atheist-"christians"--it's too "meaty" and they cannot understand...casting pearls before swine & such.

Hopefully you understand.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 28, 2012 7:20:16 AM PST
A Customer says:
Perfect obedience simply means bringing your will into complete union with the will if God. Jesus would be an example of a man with his will in total union with the will of God. Christians are called to work towards this goal. How to achieve it is the question. One solution is offered by the Christian mystics Saint John of the Cross and Saint Teresa of Avila. Their's is the path that starts in the ascetical state and then progresses into the mystical state where the soul is purged of it's imperfections that cause it's will to divert from the will of God.

Posted on Nov 28, 2012 8:59:11 AM PST
[Deleted by the author on Nov 28, 2012 7:42:57 PM PST]

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 28, 2012 9:03:17 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Nov 28, 2012 9:05:54 AM PST
Jeff Marzano says:
MDS says:

[WHY DO YOU THINK YOU CAN LIVE PEFECTLY IN THE FLESH OR TELL ME WHY WE CANNOT ?]

The closest thing I can think of for what you said, besides Christ Himself, would be the mysterious initiation rites that were practiced in Egypt, Mexico, and most likely other places in the ancient past.

Below I show what Elisabeth Haich said are the 7 octaves of God in her book Initiation. That book is about her past life experiences in ancient Egypt where she went through the initiation process.

That list shows the increasingly higher levels of spiritual enlightenment that a human soul can achieve. The highest levels in the list involve the individual aligning their lives with God's will. According to Elisabeth the Egyptian priests and pharaohs reached those highest levels as did Moses.

According to Elisabeth and others like Manly Hall some famous people who experienced the Egyptian initiation rites were Moses, Pythagoras, Plato, Aristotle, and Christ. With the exception of Christ however I'm not sure how close those others came to spiritual perfection.

In her book Elisabeth tells of individuals who attempted to attain those high levels of spiritual advancement but they failed. She herself was one of them. Her father the pharaoh warned her not to try to become an initiate until she got older. But they had a rule that if someone in their class asked three times to become an initiation candidate their request had to be honored.

Her father's words turned out to be very prophetic however as Elisabeth tells in her book. Even though her father was the pharaoh, one of the sons of the gods, her mother was a regular person. This mixed parentage apparently gave Elisabeth an intense interest in the mystical arts but yet she could also not ignore her physical desires. This conflict had severe consequences which are not easy to understand in the book.

Elisabeth tells how the Egyptian high priests, the ptahs, did not engage in sexual activity. Apparently they felt this would have only degraded their high degree of spiritual enlightenment. Those priests were the keepers of ancient and secret knowledge such as magic and alchemy. I suspect they had powers that we today can't even imagine.

According to the bible Moses' face began to give off an eerie glow at times and he started wearing a veil over his face. I guess that's what happens when an individual starts reaching the highest levels.

Moses got married however as the bible indicates. This is an apparent contradiction with the Egyptian ptahs.

Pyramids were also built at Teotihuacán in Mexico. That name means "The Place Where Men Become Gods". This phrase is probably also referring to the initiation rites.

In the Catholic tradition we have Padre Pio. This mysterious guy received the wounds of the crucifixion on his own body and he had those wounds throughout his life.

The demons didn't like this too well. They would attack Padre Pio and throw him out of bed. Pio would get startled by any sudden movement near him, thinking it was the demons.

But they could not overcome him.

Jeff Marzano

Melchizedek And The Mystery Of Fire

Initiation in the Great Pyramid (Astara's library of mystical classics)

Initiation

Elisabeth Haich talks about the seven octaves of God that she learned about during her past life experience in Egypt. These are:

Physical - Mineral and Plant
Emotional - Animal
Mental - Average man
Intuitive - Genius
Atmic - Prophet
Monadic - Divine Wisdom and Universal Love
Logoic - God/Man

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 28, 2012 10:53:26 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Nov 28, 2012 3:41:11 PM PST
Heaven101 says:
MDS: Is the death that you and the Bible speak of, is it our association with the death of Christ? "Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death," (Romans 6:4). or is it by literallly killing sin?

H101: Well...both. The penalty for sin is death. When you are unregenerate, your spirit is dead because you are separated from or nonreactive to God but your flesh is alive because it is joined together with or reactive towards sin. But because YOUR flesh died together with Christ on the cross to sin, your spirit is come to life through the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which means you are raised up because God has raised you up by giving you HIS spirit--this is the "substance" of your faith in Jesus being raised from the dead because YOU have now been "translated" from death to life also.
A reversal has occurred: your spirit is now alive because you are joined to and reactive to God but your flesh is dead because it is separated from or nonreactive towards sin. You are no longer who you were--you know you've been changed (although you may not "feel" any different at first)...slowly, but surely your attitude toward various sins begins change. Some people change instantly but whatever your rate of change, things that used to excite you begin to lose their luster. Since your flesh is now dead to sin...sin no longer has dominion over you. You are no longer its SLAVE. You no longer HAVE to obey the lusts/desires of the flesh.

MDS: How does the Spirit of God lead you into killing the misdeeds of the body?

H101:Through true repentance which is the righteous fullfillment of the law of life. You have to want to change and also realize that you don't have the ability to change yourself.
Through grace and, faith in the revelation of the law of Life ('now no condemnation for those of us who are IN Christ because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death"-Ro 8:1 & 2) you have been set free from the law of sin and death because the law of life gives you liberty: ""Everything is permissible for me"--but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me"--but I will not be mastered by anything" - 1 Cor 6:12.
At this point, because the revelation of the law of life has freed you from sin/death, you are now under no condemnation (guilt) for anything you've EVER done or ever will do and the knowledge of this new liberty bridles your compulsion to sin again AND since you are now regenerated (born again) you want to please God (instead of your flesh) so you have no desire to convert your liberty into a license to sin because that would make you a slave to sin again and THAT would not be pleasing to God.



MDS: Do you never commit the same sin twice?

H101: As often as you're not walking in the Spirit...that's how often you have the ability to sin.

MDS: Once dead to sin are you always dead to sin?

H101: You should be but...not necessarily. Sometimes something goes wrong. A converted christian can covet and retain a particularly favored sin and after a period of time "re-animate". Lol- "Walkers" aka "atheist-christians" aka "apostates" are re-animated christians...very dangerous people because they seek to feed on and in the process, contaminate others. (I think these may be the people to whom Jesus referred in the Parable of the Sower that "grew up quickly" but which had no roots and so, died). This is why Paul admonishes us to "put to death" the sins of the flesh, that they might not cause trouble for many, later.

MDS: How many times do you miss the mark before your perfect?



H101: You won't be perfected until the Day of the Lord. Again, as long as you are "in the flesh" you cannot please God but as long as you "walk in the Spirit", you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. How long can you walk in the Spirit? 24hrs, 48hrs, 1 wk, 2wks, 2 yrs, 20yrs, a lifetime? It all depends on the grace of God on your life and YOUR cooperation with the Holy Spirit. Even though you can't be "perfect" you are already "righteous" and THAT'S what really counts.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 28, 2012 4:15:51 PM PST
Agapao says:
I think you are right about casting perls before swine & such. I think you said enough. It was my mistake at pulling you deeper into the discussion by asking for more answers than my post suggests. Thanks for your past remarks. We'll leave it at that. I am a Christian. If I stood before the gates of God, and He ask me why He should allow me into Heaven. I would say, not because of goodness that I have done, but according to your mercy. I believe that Jesus died for my sins, according to Scripture, He was buried, and he arose in three days victorious over death. I share with Him His victory. Not only does Jesus stand as my advocate with the Father, His blood sent all my sins on a far off journey, "As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us." A more simple answer would be by pointing at the one with the nail scars in His hands and feet and saying, "JESUS." God would know exactly what I meant, and promptly swing the doors open.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 28, 2012 4:36:50 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Nov 28, 2012 4:38:40 PM PST
Agapao says:
j Just now read your posts. You have written some highly spiritual and great stuff. I would only differ slightly. A Christian has put to death his sins by believing on Christ. As Christians we have been planted together in the likeness of His death. In Christ there is sinless perfection. The blood washes away all our sins. The sin question as far as sonship is concerned is settled. We died to sin and raised to newness of life. But we can still sin in the flesh. Because I am cleansed, I am not deceived that I do not sin. Like you said, "You won't be perfected until the Day of the Lord. Again, as long as you are "in the flesh" you cannot please God but as long as you "walk in the Spirit", you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. How long can you walk in the Spirit? 24hrs, 48hrs, 1 wk, 2wks, 2 yrs, 20yrs, a lifetime? It all depends on the grace of God on your life and YOUR cooperation with the Holy Spirit. Even though you can't be "perfect" you are already "righteous" and THAT'S what really counts." I walk in the Spirit daily, but it is the sin of stubborness, and doing things my way, without listening or getting guidiance, is the sin that easily besets me.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 28, 2012 5:01:18 PM PST
Heaven101 says:
MDS: I believe that Jesus died for my sins, according to Scripture, He was buried, and he arose in three days victorious over death. I share with Him His victory. Not only does Jesus stand as my advocate with the Father, His blood sent all my sins on a far off journey, "As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us."

H101: Whew! What a relief...Being in these forums has been like navigating through a treacherous wilderness. Nice to meet you, Christian Soldier.

Posted on Nov 28, 2012 5:07:07 PM PST
G. Howard says:
Perfect obedience is possible in Christ, it's imputed to the believer.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 28, 2012 5:14:05 PM PST
These forums seem to be, figuratively, about three yards from the gates of hell, brother.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 28, 2012 5:37:09 PM PST
Heaven101 says:
MDS: I would only differ slightly. A Christian has put to death his sins by believing on Christ. As Christians we have been planted together in the likeness of His death. In Christ there is sinless perfection. The blood washes away all our sins. The sin question as far as sonship is concerned is settled. We died to sin and raised to newness of life.

H101: Maybe we're saying the same thing...When you say "washed in the blood", you mean the cleansing power of Jesus' sacrifice, correct? I think I was explaining the mechanics behind it: we're only washed in the blood after we've repented--and "true" repentence means "to turn from" sin which is the righteous fullfillment of the Law of Life (grace) etc., etc. and so now we live under grace only we don't know that...don't really understand it..So we've been forgiven of sin and therefore, saved from damnation only now the REAL struggle with the law begins, trying (hopelessly) not to break a commandment and to remember to be loving, kind, patient etc. Without the revelation of grace, we struggle with the law just like the Jews because we are now trying in our own power to keep all of the law--but we can't. Without the revelation of what grace actually affords us, we continue to go through the same failures over and over and over....

Thank God for grace!

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 28, 2012 5:39:50 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Nov 28, 2012 5:43:36 PM PST
Heaven101 says:
GH: Perfect obedience is possible in Christ, it's imputed to the believer.

H101: So far my "record" is about 8 days...That's with VERY limited communication--screening phone calls, etc.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 28, 2012 5:43:00 PM PST
Heaven101 says:
JC: These forums seem to be, figuratively, about three yards from the gates of hell, brother.

H101: Lol--I don't know how to reply to that
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Discussion in:  Christianity forum
Participants:  21
Total posts:  103
Initial post:  Nov 27, 2012
Latest post:  Dec 3, 2012

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