Automotive Deals HPCC Amazon Fashion Learn more Discover it $5 Albums Fire TV Stick Sun Care Handmade school supplies Shop-by-Room Amazon Cash Back Offer TarantinoCollection TarantinoCollection TarantinoCollection  Amazon Echo  Echo Dot  Amazon Tap  Echo Dot  Amazon Tap  Amazon Echo Starting at $49.99 All-New Kindle Oasis AutoRip in CDs & Vinyl Segway miniPro STEM
Customer Discussions > Christianity forum

What should American nuns do?

Sort: Oldest first | Newest first
Showing 1-18 of 18 posts in this discussion
Initial post: Apr 19, 2012 6:26:02 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Apr 19, 2012 6:29:49 PM PDT
Mellifluous says:
From National Catholic Register today:

Options facing LCWR stark, canon lawyers say

As the largest leadership organization for U.S. women religious begins to discern what steps to take following news Wednesday that the Vatican has ordered it to reform and to place itself under the authority of an archbishop, experts say the options available to the group are stark.
Ultimately, several canon lawyers told NCR, the Leadership Conference of Women Religious has two choices: Either comply with the order or face ouster as a Vatican-recognized representative of sisters in the United States.
What's more, the lawyers say, LCWR has no recourse for appeal of the decision, which the U.S. bishops' conference announced Wednesday in a press release. That release stated that, following a three-year "doctrinal assessment" by the Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Seattle Archbishop Peter Sartain had been appointed to review and potentially revise the organization's policies.
One prominent canon lawyer, Oblate Fr. Frank Morrissey, summed up the situation facing LCWR in one sentence: "If they want to continue as a recognized conference, they're going to have to work with this."
Another, Jesuit Fr. Ladislas Orsy, also put it succinctly: "It's not very complicated. The Vatican is taking control. They are taking control ... and they hope that in five years, they will put [LCWR] on a different track."
While other canon lawyers contacted by NCR generally confirmed Orsy and Morrissey's analysis, they declined to speak on the record, citing the sensitivity of the situation. A short press release from the LCWR on Thursday morning said the group was preparing to meet with its national board members "within the coming month to review the mandate and prepare a response."
In its document explaining the move, the Vatican congregation said Sartain was to have authority over the LCWR in five areas, including:

Revising LCWR statutes;
Reviewing LCWR plans and programs;
Creating new programs for the organization;
Reviewing and offering guidance on the application of liturgical texts; and
Reviewing LCWR's affiliations with other organizations, citing specifically NETWORK and the Resource Center for Religious Institutes.

That authority, the document said, is granted under two specific canons in the Code of Canon Law that deal with the establishment and work of conferences that represent major superiors of religious orders in different countries.

The language of one of those canons, said Morrissey, a professor of canon law at St. Paul University in Ottawa, Canada, is "particularly important" to consider when evaluating the options open to LCWR.
That canon, No. 708 in the code, states that "major superiors can be associated usefully in conferences or councils so that by common efforts they work to achieve more fully the purpose of the individual institutes."
The key words there, Morrissey said, is the phrase "can be associated usefully." Important to recognize, he said, is the fact that the canon does not say that major superiors "must" meet. That means the Vatican "can always, at any time, just remove the recognition of a conference. It certainly has the right to do that," he said.
That power, Morrissey said, is also recognized in another section of the code that refers to the organization of "public associations of the Christian faithful." In that section, canon 320 states tersely that "only the Holy See can suppress associations it has erected."
That means, Morrissey said, that "the bishops in the States or any other country couldn't suppress the conference themselves. They could ask the Holy See to do it, but they couldn't force it."
In terms of whether LCWR would have any ability to appeal the decision, Orsy said flatly: "There is no recourse here. None whatsoever."
Orsy, who is currently a visiting professor at Georgetown University Law Center but has taught at five institutions, including the Gregorian University in Rome, compared the canon law allowing the move to U.S. civil laws, which grant the U.S. president authority to set up new federal agencies without approval from Congress.
In terms of how issues like the appointment of Sartain are addressed in practice at the Vatican, he said it's considered "simply an administrative decision."
Morrissey said part of the problem regarding the question of whether the sisters can appeal the decision is the fact that, when a decision comes from the Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, "there's no appeal except to the Doctrine of Faith itself."
While Morrissey said the LCWR "could always ask" the congregation to reconsider its own decision, he doubted the congregation would be willing to re-evaluate, considering the number of the meetings that have already been held on the matter since announcement of the investigation in 2009.
The situation regarding the chances of appeal is so dim, Orsy said, that no canon lawyer would advise LCWR to spend time even trying to prepare a case to present.
"I have no doubt that [the congregation] checked out everything at the very highest level," he said. "I think it would be incorrect to tell [LCWR] anything else and let them have an illusion ... [or] give them the idea that they can appeal and they begin to work on it and all that.
"It comes nowhere," he said. "A responsible lawyer would not do that."
According to Wednesday's letter from the congregation, Sartain's mandate runs for "up to five years, as deemed necessary." Sartain is also expected to set up an advisory team that includes clergy and women religious to "work collaboratively" with LCWR officers and to "report on the progress of this work to the Holy See."
According to the U.S. bishops' release, Bishop Leonard Blair of Toledo, Ohio, and Bishop Thomas John Paprocki of Springfield, Ill., will work with Sartain.
The Vatican congregation's doctrinal assessment of LCWR started shortly after the Vatican's Congregation for Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life announced a separate apostolic visitation of U.S. women religious orders. The results of that study were submitted to Rome in January.
In his letter Wednesday, Levada writes that Sartain's appointment is "aimed at fostering a patient and collaborative renewal of this conference of major superiors in order to provide a stronger doctrinal foundation for its many laudable initiatives and activities."
The document from the congregation re-emphasizes the reason for the doctrinal assessment, writing that Levada told LCWR leadership in 2008 that the congregation had three major areas of concern with the group:
The content of speakers' addresses at the annual LCWR assemblies;
"Corporate dissent" in the congregation regarding the church's sexual teachings; and
"A prevalence of certain radical feminist themes incompatible with the Catholic faith" present in some of the organizations programs and presentations.
While Wednesday's document referred to some specific concerns the congregation has with the group and referenced the meetings it has had with the sisters, it did not provide minutes of those meetings or release other documents.
Orsy said any further examination of the congregation's decision is hampered by that fact.
"We are all handicapped because the evidence has not been published," Orsy said. "And like any kind of decision, you measure the decision in relationship to the evidence. But the evidence has not been published, except in very general terms. Therefore, you cannot argue with a decision unless you get the evidence on which it was based."
Morrissey said his hope in the coming days was that "nobody will take rash decisions."
"This is something that needs to be thought out," he said. "It might be a good moment for mid-course correction."
Joshua J. McElwee is an NCR staff writer.

So, Amazon Christianity Forum, do you have an opinion about what the sisters should do?

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 19, 2012 7:50:39 PM PDT
I think the LCWR should let the Vatican withdraw their support... and become an *alternative* to acquiescence to the Vatican for Catholic clergy and laity.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 19, 2012 9:54:28 PM PDT
[Deleted by Amazon on Apr 20, 2012 6:46:45 AM PDT]

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 19, 2012 9:57:03 PM PDT
Ponger says:
They should use birth control and avoid abortions.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 19, 2012 9:58:31 PM PDT
reply to Ponger's post:


they already do that
not all the priests are quacko

Posted on Apr 19, 2012 10:01:21 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Apr 19, 2012 10:01:43 PM PDT
Jack Vix says:
I think the vast majority of the modern world couldn't care less about what the Vatican says. Even most Catholics. The organization will probably crumble in the next couple generations.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 19, 2012 10:07:39 PM PDT
reply to Jack Vix's post:

yes indeedy doo

the end times should be a couple of generations away
then the whore of babylon will burn in hell

Posted on Apr 20, 2012 10:40:21 AM PDT
Brian Curtis says:
I'd prefer more direct action. I think they should overthrow the Pope and perhaps parade defrocked cardinals through the streets to public acclaim.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 20, 2012 10:49:24 AM PDT
Newbomb Turk says:
whomper - Why do you think the 'end-times' are 80-100 years away? No troll, I'm just curious.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 20, 2012 2:39:13 PM PDT
Cal Engime says:
"I think the LCWR should let the Vatican withdraw their support... and become an *alternative* to acquiescence to the Vatican for Catholic clergy and laity."

That sounds like schism, which Catholics consider a mortal sin.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 20, 2012 3:21:02 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Apr 20, 2012 3:23:02 PM PDT
reply to Newbomb Turk's post:

i dont know when they will be
many people are seeing signs of it being imminent
our preacherman acts like it will be in his lifetime
which i doubt strongly

i know historically that things do not move as fast as they think
i see it being very possible in 50-200 years with my best guess being closer to 100

could it take longer ? sure thing.
we have seen supposed signs of the end before
that never happened

could it never happen
i wont admit to that possibility although revelation version could be wrong

but with the earthquakes and tornadoes increasing
and overpopulation causing food shortages
oil prices rising
economies falling apart
yada yada

there are *more* signs than ever before
add in teh frankenfood and other stuff man has done
chemical poisoning in the food from our plastic dishes and cans
antibiotics failing due to overuse leading to plagues
food shortages when something new kills the GMO plants
and we have no historical seeds to use ...

and the U.N. taking over the money which is digital to control the problems euro et al have .... then a hacker messes with it.....woweee

then i can see a perfect storm tipping the point over the edge in that time frame

when things get bad enough the whore of babylon will help the evil one to take worldwide power and the stuff in revelation will all happen

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 20, 2012 3:21:40 PM PDT
reply to Cal Engime's post:

well yes but not the way they think

RC have left the real church

not the otehr way around

Posted on May 17, 2012 4:42:17 AM PDT
Rubedo says:
It seems there ought to be enough progressive sisters, priests, laity and bishops to schism and form a new church.

In reply to an earlier post on May 17, 2012 5:39:20 AM PDT
anne says:
<What should American nuns do?>

Get real jobs!

In reply to an earlier post on May 17, 2012 8:12:50 AM PDT
Swedey says:
Like what your group does? That kind of a real job?

In reply to an earlier post on May 17, 2012 8:13:55 AM PDT
"Like what your group does?"

Which group is that?

In reply to an earlier post on May 17, 2012 8:20:58 AM PDT
Swedey says:
'anne' is a group of posters posting under one moniker. 'She' can explain.

In reply to an earlier post on May 17, 2012 9:01:53 AM PDT
Bubba says:
"That sounds like schism, which Catholics consider a mortal sin."

The LCWR and its supporters may not look at it that way.
‹ Previous 1 Next ›
[Add comment]
Add your own message to the discussion
To insert a product link use the format: [[ASIN:ASIN product-title]] (What's this?)
Prompts for sign-in

Recent discussions in the Christianity forum

  Discussion Replies Latest Post
Amazon Discussions Feedback Forum
1197 14 days ago
If a man dies will he live again? Or, is physical death the end? 1180 1 minute ago
What do "born agains" actually believe about Jesus? I am confused. Want to discuss. 9561 25 minutes ago
Transgender Individuals 7491 30 minutes ago
The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-day Saints is Christian. 7743 1 hour ago
Jesus never "died for our sins" 3518 1 hour ago
Outside of the your feelings, do any of you fundamentalist atheists have personal that atheism is true? 505 1 hour ago
My Mob's pub and coffee shop, Part the Twelfth 805 1 hour ago
Catholic-Protestant Discussion Part XXXV 8999 1 hour ago
Jesus of History vs. Christ of Faith 582 2 hours ago
moment-of-broken-ness, part 2 9672 2 hours ago
Tim Kaine, a Catholic who believes in good works is VP pick on the Hillary Democratic ticket! 534 2 hours ago

This discussion

Discussion in:  Christianity forum
Participants:  12
Total posts:  18
Initial post:  Apr 19, 2012
Latest post:  May 17, 2012

New! Receive e-mail when new posts are made.
Tracked by 2 customers

Search Customer Discussions