Customer Discussions > Christianity forum

Part III: Call for Reform in the Catholic Church--Why and what is needed to effect much needed change!

This discussion has reached the maximum length permitted, and cannot accept new replies. Start a new discussion


Sort: Oldest first | Newest first
Showing 1-25 of 1000 posts in this discussion
Initial post: Mar 21, 2012 11:15:00 AM PDT
This is a continuation of the previous discussion. You may reference previous posts at:

http://www.amazon.com/forum/christianity/ref=cm_cd_pg_pg384?_encoding=UTF8&cdForum=Fx77WQHU8YS50Z&cdPage=384&cdSort=oldest&cdThread=Tx3UILDC3XD6CKM

Posted on Mar 21, 2012 12:19:15 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Aug 19, 2012 9:23:16 AM PDT
From U.S. CATHOLIC Magazine

Why targeting SNAP is a bad idea ...
Tuesday, March 20, 2012
By Bryan Cones

Legal action taken by two Missouri dioceses against the Survivors Network of Those Abused by Priests is starting to gain traction in the media--op-eds here and here--beginning with a New York Times story by Laurie Goodstein, which quoted the ever-ready-to-talk Bill Donohue of the Catholic League, saying that the U.S. bishops were acting "collectively" against SNAP: "I can't give you the names, but there's a growing consensus on the part of the bishops that they had better toughen up and go out and buy some good lawyers to get tough. We don't need altar boys," he said. Bishops' spokesperson Sister Mary Ann Walsh says that there has been no such meeting.

(Side note: Why is Bill Donohue allowed to speak for the church without correction from the bishops regarding anything he wants to, while Sister Carol Keehan of the Catholic Health Association is criticized by none other than N.Y. Cardinal Timothy Dolan for expressing her own "Catholic" opinion about health care reform and the contraceptive mandate? Discuss.)

the rest at: http://www.uscatholic.org/blog/2012/03/why-targeting-snap-bad-idea

Posted on Mar 21, 2012 12:30:34 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Mar 21, 2012 12:32:32 PM PDT
"We forego the good in favor of the perfect," says Sr. Carol Keehan, of Catholic Health Association of rejection of current health care reform proposals by the Church. Check out full video interview.

5 Questions with Sister Carol Keehan, D.C. on health care reform

U.S. Catholic Managing Editor Bryan Cones interviews Sister Carol Keehan, D.C., president and CEO of the Catholic Health Association about the latest developments in the push for health care reform. The full interview will appear in the May issue.

the rest at: http://www.uscatholic.org/video/5-questions-sister-carol-keehan-dc-health-care-reform

Posted on Mar 21, 2012 12:47:07 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Mar 21, 2012 1:51:04 PM PDT
Fr. Thomas Smolich, S.J., was Provincial and the man who offered me a small monetary settlement after I asked for non-monetary compensation for having been duped and sexually exploited by a Jesuit in his Province. This is the man I have quoted before as having said of me asking for an apology letter, among other things, "That's NOT the way we handle these matters!" He also gave me and my therapist a tour of the facility mentioned in following so he could show off the rennovations he was having done, including building a new, detached, conference facility with a panoramic window view of Santa Clara Valley below. I recall at the time having thought, "Is he flaunting how much Church money is being spent on this, rather than abuse victims?" In fact, I also recall having felt sorry for the elderly, retired priests housed there, in the not-so-nice parts of the facility, which I peeked into, without permission. I also recall that the Jesuit who abused me once referred to the place, with a shudder, as "The graveyard above ground--or where old priests go to die."

SNAP responds to promotion of Fr. Thomas Smolich
Posted by Barbara Dorris on March 20, 2012

Whenever church officials are promoted, we always hope for the best. We hope that church officials will bring in an outsider who has not been involved in an institution that has been marred by cover-ups, or that a priest is promoted instead of a monsignor or fellow bishop. Today, when a Jesuit priest Fr. Thomas Smolich was tapped to head the Conference of Major Superiors of Men, church officials did exactly the opposite of what we hope for. They elevated a man with a horrific record on child sex abuse and who has been allegedly involved in many cover ups.

Smolich, who has worked as President of the Jesuit Conference of the United States since 2006, has a history rife with excusals of predator priests. In 2002, Smolich was working as the Provincial for the California province of the Jesuits. When Angel Crisostomo Mariano was sued in civil court for abusing a mentally disabled man, Smolich denied knowing much about Mariano at all, despite the fact that, at that point, Smolich had been roommates with Mariano for two years.

Beyond living with credibly accused predator priests, Smolich has housed other convicted and accused predators at the Sacred Heart Center in Los Gatos, CA where these predators have been able to mix with vulnerable adults, in some cases abusing them. Fr. James Chevedden was wheelchair-bound and living at Sacred Heart when he was abused by serial predator Br. Charles Leonard Connor (http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/local/12309408.htm).

Tragically, Fr. Chevedden died by suicide or a staged suicide three years after reporting the abuse, and the Jesuits later settled with Chevedden's surviving family in a wrongful death suit.

Smolich has housed and protected more than just Br. Connor, however. At least five credibly-accused or convicted predators have lived at Sacred Heart (Fr. Connor, Fr. Jerold Lidner, Fr. Edward Thomas Burke, Fr. Mariano, and Br. John Moniz) (http://www.detnews.com/2002/religion/0207/01/religion-526386.htm). These men were afforded the opportunity to not only avoid responsibility for their crimes, but also the chance to abuse others.

Clearly, Smolich is more focused on protecting his fellow Jesuits than he is deterring them from abusing children and vulnerable adults or making sure that citizens are safe from other predators within the Society of Jesus. We are deeply concerned that Smolich is the type of man who is, at least according to the Catholic hierarchy, worthy of promotion. We wonder how many more people have been or will be abused by his protection of predator priests, and we worry about how this promotion will allow this type of behavior to continue.

Smolich should be demoted, not promoted.

We urge anyone who has been abused by any priest, Jesuit or otherwise, to immediately go to the police and work to put the predator in jail. That's the best way to keep kids safe. The Jesuits are still not doing what they should to safeguard the vulnerable and expose child molesting clerics.

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 21, 2012 2:15:57 PM PDT
Kevin Bold says:
"We urge anyone who has been abused by any priest, Jesuit or otherwise, to immediately go to the police and work to put the predator in jail."

Including the ones who were falsely accused and subsequently acquitted, like Father Bodhan Borowec.

www.borowec.com

Posted on Mar 21, 2012 2:36:43 PM PDT
Kevin Bold says:
From http://www.borowec.com/theday.html

On January 25, 2011, Winnipeg priest Father Bohdan Borowec arrived in Hawaii for the first time in his life. He had taken the opportunity to enjoy a vacation and serve as a priest at St. Sophia's Mission in Honolulu, which no longer has a full time priest of its own. He had a break from the prairie winter weather, and the parishioners had the benefit of a learned, highly respected, Polish born Ukrainian Catholic priest to serve them for a time.

On Sunday February 13, just days before he was scheduled to return home, Father served Divine Liturgy at mid-morning and then attended a farewell potluck party which was held in his honour. After lunch ten guests left, with one parishioner staying behind in the kitchen. There were still many other people moving about the house, volunteers that were preparing for an outreach homeless program there later that day.

Father sat down at the dining room table to rest as he awaited a telephone call from his sister in Canada. The final party guest, a woman, approached Father and said ''Goodbye Father, thank you for serving the Mission''. Father politely reciprocated her hug, reciprocated the kiss of Peace on the cheek and said goodbye. Just then the telephone rang and Father went to the telephone room to answer it. After the phone call Father turned and shut the door to the main hallway to stop a draft. As he turned to go back in the dining room he was surprised to see the woman he had just said goodbye to standing near the other door to the phone room. The woman sat down on a bench there and began talking. One of the students who lives on the property passed through this telephone room, which is about 13x13 in size, during their conversation on two separate occasions. The student states that the woman sat chatting and laughing with Father there for ten to fifteen minutes. This student also says that the woman did not show any signs of distress and she never indicated there was a problem. When the conversation ended, Father escorted the woman to the front door and the student witnessed the woman turn to Father, reach up and give Father a hug and kiss on a cheek, and then walk to her car waving with a smile to Father.

​Three days later, this same woman called police and had Father arrested for sexual assault and kidnapping.

Father was charged with these crimes and held on bail for six long months. A jury trial found him Not Guilty on all counts on August 8th, 2011.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

SNAP's reaction to Fr. Borowec's acquittal:

"Our hearts ache for this brave woman who had the wisdom to report a (sic) horrific crimes to law enforcement. Let's hope that every person who saw, suspected or suffered clergy sex crimes and cover ups in Hawaii - by Borowic (sic) or any cleric - will find the courage and strength to speak up, call police, expose wrongdoing, protect kids and start healing."

Posted on Mar 21, 2012 2:59:53 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Apr 2, 2012 8:24:50 PM PDT
Seriously Kevin. One exonerated priest does not cancel out the damage done by one pedophile priest who
will likely have abused up to 50 children before being arrested for abuse of one. I will state again that
I do not like to see ANYONE falsely accused. But you're not going to get apologies from real victims
of priests for the falsely accused. Also, I want citations, from SNAP website or news source from any
quotes you post that you attribute to SNAP.

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 21, 2012 5:16:38 PM PDT
Kevin Bold says:
Seriously, Alex, the number of genuinely guilty priests doesn't justify shutting down the Catholic Church.

I know I won't get any apologies from SNAP members for their harrassing of innocent priests who've been acquitted, but the real reason is because Snappies are a bunch of fanatics too petty to admit it when they're wrong.

The full "Our hearts ache for this [liar] ... " statement can be found at http://tinyurl.com/7xjjdh7

But you knew that, and that it was authentic, didn't you?

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 21, 2012 10:20:50 PM PDT
Lew Archer says:
Kevin Bold,

Sad and telling to see you get 4 "no" votes for a benign post like this one.

And with only 2 people posting.

Hmmm.........

Posted on Mar 22, 2012 6:29:33 AM PDT
Pope Mexico trip clouded ...
MEXICO
Washington Post

Pope Mexico trip clouded by documents that show Vatican knew of Legion founder's abuse

By Associated Press, Updated: Wednesday, March 21

MEXICO CITY - Pope Benedict XVI arrives in Mexico this week to a very public reminder of one of the Catholic Church's most egregious sex abuse scandals: A new book says internal Vatican documents show the Holy See knew decades ago of allegations that the Mexican founder of the disgraced Legion of Christ religious order was a drug addict and pedophile.

The documentation has been compiled in a book "La voluntad de no saber" ("The will to not know"), which is co-authored by Jose Barba, a former Legion priest who along with other priests in 1998 brought a church trial against the Legion's founder, the Rev. Marciel Maciel, for having sexually abused them while they were seminarians.

While details of the abuse were made public years ago in Mexico and the Spanish-speaking world, the authors aim for a larger international audience, saying they will post key documents on the Internet as part of the book release Saturday. Excerpts of the book published by Proceso magazine on Sunday received little attention in Mexico.

"The importance of this book is that it documents the irrefutable evidence and proof that the Vatican has been lying about Maciel," said Bernardo Barranco, an expert from the Religious Studies Center of Mexico and author of the prologue of the new text.

the rest at: http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/pope-mexico-trip-clouded-by-documents-that-show-vatican-knew-of-legion-founders-abuse/2012/03/21/gIQAdtf4QS_story.html

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 22, 2012 6:36:35 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Mar 22, 2012 6:50:31 AM PDT
Well, Lew, then you're only looking at votes on Kevin's posts. I don't cheat on posts. And we'll soon have others from former discussion here.

P.S. People can also vote on a discussion without posting to it. If they don't post, the votes alone won't register them as "participant" in the discussion.

Posted on Mar 22, 2012 7:03:47 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Apr 14, 2012 9:18:58 AM PDT
You know, it occurred to me that with all the upset over ARTIFICIAL birth control versus NFP and provision of BCPs for free, I'm lead to ask why the Church hasn't taken exception to ARTIFICIAL male enhancement like Viagra? After all, that's not "natural" as sexual enhancement. We may later find out, for example, that children fathered by men who used Viagra, to help conceive them have a disproportionately higher rate of ADHD or autism? (As it happens, we already know that's the case with ADHD children, especially boys, whose fathers were alcohol abusers. Or quality of sperm makes as much difference as maternal health)

Or do you suppose for one moment that if it was proposed that Viagra should be free under health care plans, there'd be men testifying before Congress or calling for amendments to state laws to get that banned? Not on your life.

There's that and I already know for a fact that Catholic priests already get Viagra prescriptions, among other things...

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 22, 2012 7:32:52 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Mar 22, 2012 7:33:15 AM PDT
Reesey says:
"I already know for a fact that Catholic priests already get Viagra prescriptions,"

Reesey: I already know for a fact that Catholic priests don't get Viagra prescriptions.....

See, your hearsay "evidence" cuts both ways. And I didn't even ask you how you know the intimate details of priests' sex lives, like you asked me how I knew the intimate details of couples' sex lives when I said I knew around 350 couples who use NFP.

And, I'm still waiting for your legal and constitutional proof that religious organizations who get money from the government for doing work for the government "abdicate" their religious freedom. Your statement to this affect was so absolute that I had to ask.

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 22, 2012 7:36:21 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Apr 14, 2012 9:19:32 AM PDT
It's not hearsay evidence. Or how closely have you paid attention to the details I've disclosed of my experience with the Jesuit and adult clergy abuse victims and survivors? For that matter, when a local priest was arrested on a rape allegation charge--a woman he'd "counseled"--he admitted to having taken spermacide and condoms along to what the woman thought was going to be a "counseling" session.

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 22, 2012 7:40:15 AM PDT
Raulito says:
Alexandra,

"there's that and I already know for a fact that Catholic priests already get viagra prescriptions, among other things...."

Well of course. If a priest is having an affair with a woman and he can't get it up, don't you think he would buy viagra? Common sense.

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 22, 2012 7:41:24 AM PDT
Reesey says:
AR:You know, it occurred to me that with all the upset over ARTIFICIAL birth control versus NFP and provision of BCPs for free, I'm lead to ask why the Church hasn't taken exception to ARTIFICIAL male enhancement like Viagra?

Reesey: That's b/c you really haven't got a clue WHY the CC opposes ABC, sterilization, and abortion. If you really wanted to know, you'd take some time away from your pursuit of misinformation about the CC, and read JPII's "Theology of the Body." But, you don't really want to know.....

At any rate, even a cursory examination of what ABC, sterilization, and abortion do, and what Viagra does, will expose the fact there is a vast difference between the 2 groups of "treatments" (unless, of course, you are a victim of the "contraceptive mentality" that thinks of pregnancy as a disease in need of a surgical/pharmaceutical "cure."

Viagra fixes something that is "broken". ABC, sterilization and abortion "break" something that is healthy, good and natural.

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 22, 2012 7:48:24 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Apr 14, 2012 9:20:42 AM PDT
Let's start with this from National Catholic Reporter, 2008. But as I told Lew and others, I'm not going to do homework for Catholics who are as capable of finding information they don't (really) want to know about their Church as any so-called anti-Catholic. But I will tell you again: I have a sister who worked in a Catholic hospital for 15 years and the relationship with the Jesuit wasn't all sexual. Or he alone gave me insights into the Church and priesthood that you wish he'd kept under his confessional seal, along with whatever I heard from his brethren. (Obviously, they didn't think I was listening or paying attention. "Don't you worry your pretty little head about that...)

Charities brace for leaner economy
By EILEEN MARKEY

As the specter of recession looms over the U.S. economy and Americans begin to tighten their belts, managers of major Catholic charities are preparing for the possibility of smaller donations at a time of increased need for the services they provide.

Taken together, Catholic institutions -- from parishes to shelters to 600 hospitals -- amount to a $100 billion economy, according to Francis J. Butler, executive director of Foundations and Donors Interested in Catholic Activities, known as FADICA, an amalgam of 54 private foundations that concentrate their philanthropy on Catholic causes. While much of that $100 billion in spending is supported through government funds, such as Medicare payments at hospitals and Department of Housing and Urban Development grants at affordable housing complexes, diocesan operations rely heavily on private donations, Butler said. Nationwide all parishes together collect between $6 billion and $7 billion annually. But when times are lean, the collection plate is lighter, he said.

"Traditionally giving patterns parallel the stock market," he said in an interview at the end of February. "I would suspect, just speaking with folks in the dioceses, that giving is down in the collection baskets."

FADICA and organizations that track charitable giving do not have data on the amount of donations charities have received in the past few months as the economy slowed, housing prices sunk and the effects of the subprime mortgage fiasco battered everyone from private and institutional investors to communities hit with increased rates of foreclosure.

Survey data released in December by the Center on Philanthropy at Indiana University, which tracks donations nationwide, suggested that nonprofits were bracing for leaner times.

That means more work, but less money.

"Prior research shows that human services nonprofits are among the first to see an increased demand for services when the economy slows," Eugene R. Tempel, executive director of the Center on Philanthropy, said in a statement accompanying the release of the report. "In those circumstances, such organizations often also face declining financial support from households, foundations and corporations. Even though the economy is not in a recession, uncertain economic conditions may be of particular concern for these organizations."

Nearly half of respondents to the center's survey predicted the economy would have a negative impact on fundraising in the first six months of 2008, according to the report.

the rest at: http://www.natcath.org/NCR_Online/archives2/2008a/030708/ss030708e.htm

Even I can do the math in estimating the difference between $100 billion in expenses and $6 or $7 billion dollars in church donations.

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 22, 2012 7:52:57 AM PDT
Reesey says:
My problem, Alexandra, should have been obvious, as I framed my statement in the exact same fashion as you framed yours. I don't doubt that SOME priests are sexually active, in complete violation of their vows. What I have a problem with, once again, is painting the WHOLE with the same broad brush you paint the FEW. So, when you say: "Catholic priests get Viagra....", it doesn't reveal any attempt to speak of a sub-set of priests, but of the WHOLE set of priests. I find that wildly inaccurate.

And, don't bother to mention Sipe's "study". The results of his study of 1500 priests who were already from the sub-set of sexually active priests can hardly be extrapolated to the WHOLE. That's a bit like studying 1500 men in prison for assault, and concluding that the vast majority of ALL men are violent.

So, I reject your statement that "priests use Viagra" not only as hearsay, but as inaccurate. Better to say that "some priests are alleged to use Viagra."

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 22, 2012 7:59:19 AM PDT
Astrin Ymris says:
Reesey,

Religious organizations ONLY get government money if they comply with the conditions for receiving said money; i.e., use it for non-sectarian secular purposes, and comply with all relevant state and federal regulations.

Religious freedom doesn't extend to "the right to receive government money for employer health insurance that's trimmed to fit your religious doctrine". That is indisputably a SECTARIAN use of federal funds.

Posted on Mar 22, 2012 8:05:43 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Mar 22, 2012 8:24:22 AM PDT
Reesey wrote: "Viagra fixes something that is "broken". ABC, sterilization and abortion 'break' something that is healthy, good and natural."

Well so do birth control pills, "fix" things! They regulate irregular menstrual cycles and relieve peri-menopausal symptoms without subjecting women to high dosage HRT complications AND BCPs prevent unwanted pregnancies which is good, along with eliminating ever having to deal with abortion.

Finally, if men received free Viagra, there'd be as much public outrage over a woman saying she wants to see video tapes of men using Viagra for strictly recreational sexual enhancement purposes--versus to overcome erectile dysfunction that's disallowing men ability to father children in holy wedlock--as was (rightfully) the case when Rush Limbaugh criticized a woman for her defense of provision of free BCPs.

Posted on Mar 22, 2012 8:07:28 AM PDT
Funny how it's always "different" when we're talking about male sexuality. In short: the Catholic Church is still one of the biggest proponents of the bad old "double standard" left on the planet.

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 22, 2012 8:20:03 AM PDT
Reesey says:
AR: I'm not going to do homework for Catholics who are as capable of finding information they don't (really) want to know about their Church....

Reesey: And, you have an example, just ONE, where you have "enlightened" me on something I didn't know about my Church? B/c I can't think of a single example. Rather, I can think of numerous examples where you posted nonsense and misinformation (like, the flat Earth Myth, the True Cross relic Myth, the so-called "public crisis" myth that even the judge refuted, the "one bill" myth, and many more) b/c you don't bother to check your own assertions before you assert them.

But, that still isn't answering my question.....(actually, I asked you several on the Part II thread, which you haven't answered, but let's just stick to this one for now).

AR: Even I can do the math in estimating the differece between $100 billion in expenses and $6 or $7 billion dollars in church donations.

Reesey: So, what are you now saying? What was the NCReporter article supposed to be saying? That Catholic hospitals and charities receive a large amount of $$ from the government for doing work for the government, like Medicare and Medicaid? Because if that is what you are saying, then I absolutely agree. Catholic Charities' annual statements are posted on-line, and easily accessed. They received in 2009 something like 67% of their income from the US government - and spent that amount on doing work for the government.

But that isn't what I have been asking, because that isn't ALL of what you asserted. I flipped back several pages on Part II, and found your exact words:

AR: "And one more time Reesey, and others I will remind you that when your social services agencies and hospitals rely heavily on government subsidies, and employ many non-Catholics, you have abdicated your right to impose Church standards on anyone in your employ, who is not Catholic."

Reesey: So, don't try to make it sound like I am ignorant of how much $$ Catholic hospitals and charities receive from the government, b/c that is not what I am asking you. I have asked, about 4 times now, for legal and constitutional proof from you that we have "abdicated" our First Amendment Right to Religious Freedom simple because we do work for the government.

So, don't simply assert your personal opinion as if it were a legal or constitutional fact. Give me THOSE facts to support your opinion, otherwise, it is just an opinion.

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 22, 2012 8:20:35 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Mar 22, 2012 8:21:51 AM PDT
Astrin, that is why I posted (above) quote from, Sister Carol Keehan, D.C., president and CEO of the Catholic Health Association, and video link. She correctly argued, "We forego the good in favor of the perfect," in affirming why she doesn't think allowances for BCPs, for non-Catholic employees, should be dwelt upon, as they risk losing ability to do "good" with whatever money received from subsidies that is directed to many, many other purposes. She also stressed that Obama upheld Catholic hospitals ability to continue to receive subsidies without requiring they also become providers of abortions.

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 22, 2012 8:24:24 AM PDT
[Deleted by Amazon on Mar 22, 2012 10:55:28 PM PDT]

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 22, 2012 8:28:11 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Mar 22, 2012 8:29:50 AM PDT
Reesey says:
Keehan is not an "alternative magisterium" of the CC. She is a very powerful nun in Washington (one of Obama's favorites), and in CHA, but she neither speaks for the Bishops or for the CC. In fact, she is more often than not, in direct opposition to Catholic social teaching, the Catholic health-care directives, the bishops - and, canon law for that matter.

IOW, she is your version of Bill Donohue, so she carries no weight with me. I have already stated in the past that I don't personally "like" Bill Donohue, but I've independently checked everything he alleges, and I've never found that he has lied or misrepresented anything. OTOH, I cannot say the same of Keehan.
‹ Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ... 400 Next ›
Discussion locked

 

This discussion

Discussion in:  Christianity forum
Participants:  82
Total posts:  10000
Initial post:  Mar 21, 2012
Latest post:  Sep 2, 2012

New! Receive e-mail when new posts are made.
Tracked by 10 customers

Search Customer Discussions