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Your consciousness is not your soul


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Initial post: Dec 10, 2012 3:43:15 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 10, 2012 3:45:21 PM PST
Macheath says:
The soul is not this Ghost in the machine, that would feel no different, as far as the flow of conscious thought, after the body and brain were turned off at death. The idea that consciousness is your soul seems to be something that people have borrowed from Eastern religions and new age.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 10, 2012 3:52:01 PM PST
Astrocat says:
That could be Macheath, that is that it's inherent in the Eastern religions and that us "new agers" have adopted it. I think it's more likely that since we are Soul in incarnation we have that knowledge, we carry it around with us, and at some point in some one lifetime it pops up and reminds us of Reality. And that Reality is that we are Soul and that Soul is Consciousness.

Posted on Dec 10, 2012 4:02:03 PM PST
[Deleted by the author on Dec 10, 2012 8:29:31 PM PST]

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 10, 2012 4:06:19 PM PST
Macheath says:
Really, so you think your consciousness as you now experience it will continue after the death of the body? Seems perhaps the central element of consciousness is the awareness of experiences (internal and from the external through sense inputs) in relation to the flow of time. Will this consciousness still experience an awareness of the flow of time?

Posted on Dec 10, 2012 4:23:28 PM PST
Alan says:
I will follow the conversation here with interest. I do not have any clear understanding of what 'soul' means. I hope to learn more.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 10, 2012 4:32:40 PM PST
Astrocat says:
Macheath, yes, I'm completely convinced that "I", the Soul that is living through this current personality, will continue after the death of this body. When I've completed my task for this incarnation I will "abstract" from this personality and that will cause it to "die", which is really just the absence of the indwelling consciousness.

No, there is no time apart from the human brain. It's a construct that only lasts as long as the contact lasts between Soul and the matter of the physical body.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 10, 2012 4:35:11 PM PST
Mens Sana says:
Macheath: Seems perhaps the central element of consciousness is the awareness of experiences (internal and from the external through sense inputs) in relation to the flow of time.
M_S: Just for clarity, wouldn't it have to be "self-awareness"? Animals are aware of experiences, e.g., Pavlov's dogs.

Macheath: Will this consciousness still experience an awareness of the flow of time?
M_S: I don't think consciousness as self-awareness (perhaps "identity", for short?) survives death - but there's a lot about the universe that we know nothing of.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 10, 2012 4:36:14 PM PST
Mens Sana says:
I don't know what it means, other than as a concept, either.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 10, 2012 4:49:02 PM PST
Macheath says:
So if there is no time apart from the human brain, in what sense can you say that your consciousness (in which the flow of time is central to it's very essence) continues on after the brain is dead?

Remember, you had earlier said "Soul is Consciousness", and now you seem to be changing your position, and talking about a more abstract "I" rather than a consciousness.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 10, 2012 5:12:38 PM PST
Astrocat says:
Macheath, Consciousness is not dependent on time. It's not the kind of awareness most people think of. Oh, how can I describe this? Okay, there is that state of awareness in matter itself, then there is intelligent, sentient consciousness, the kind we see in the vegetable kingdom. There's animal consciousness and then human consciousness, where we come to "self-consciousness", the awareness that we are, somehow, not the body we live in, but beyond that. But there is Soul Consciousness, and that's where we leave off the need for the material form. Soul is the "I" I was talking about. Soul is Consciousness within the form, but it is not dependent upon the form. Soul is the middle principle between Spirit and Matter. In Christian theology Christ is the middle principle, so Christ stands in for Soul, and for Consciousness, since they're one and the same. Spirit continually interacts with Matter and that interaction continually generates Soul/Consciousness/Christ. It's not dense matter that we're talking about here, however, but etheric matter. Soul/Consciousness is the activating factor between Spirit and Etheric Matter, and the dense material forms are just the outer casing of the inner Reality.

I don't want to go too far here so I'll stop at this point.

Posted on Dec 10, 2012 5:37:03 PM PST
G. J. Stein says:
It seems the words soul and spirit share the same definition in the minds and writings of many.

In my own effort to clarify, I decided every living thing has a soul, but only mankind have both, a
soul and a spirit. One stays after death and returns to nothing, the other passes to eternity.

In an existential way the soul is the sum total of the flower, dog, insect or secular man with the exception
of; the others function by instinct and mankind functions by tuition to his carnal spirit, which is preset at birth
to be self-centered and self-willed.

A proper upbringing usually weens one of this narcissism and makes for a domesticated citizen in societies world wide.
But the spirit of a man is also deceptive and in a world of gods competing for slavish devotion through one medium
or another, mankind has to learn a defense or else be swept away to moral debauchery.

This is where the Creator God steps in, and offers mankind a spiritual renewal. A fresh new guide for the soul, along with
a promise of a continued relationship after death, in eternity, where only our spirits will remain with His, because
He Himself is a Spirit.

Whats the defense you ask? The written word that renews our minds, taught to us by the Holy Spirit, one-on-one from
within. No religions necessary! This is a 24/7 walk with Jesus Christ, who will show you first hand the difference between
your carnal self and your holy self; your soul and spirit.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the

division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 And there

is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.

{: J

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 10, 2012 6:14:02 PM PST
Macheath says:
"In my own effort to clarify, I decided every living thing has a soul, but only mankind have both, a soul and a spirit. One stays after death and returns to nothing, the other passes to eternity."

G.J., you may be surprised that you sound almost exactly like the great Catholic writer and street preacher Frank Sheed;

"This mingling of spirit and matter in human actions arises from a fact which distinguishes man's spirit from all others. Ours is the only spirit which is also a soul - that is to say, the life principle in a body. God is a spirit, but has no body; the angels are spirits, but have no body. Only in man spirit is united in a body, animates the body, makes it to be a living body. Every living body - vegetable, lower animal, human - has a life principle, a soul. And just as ours is the only spirit which is a soul, so ours is the only soul which is a spirit."

Posted on Dec 10, 2012 6:21:54 PM PST
Our soul experiences consciousness as it has to in our physical form in this physical world. Ninety-nine percent of us are pretty limited beings and we relate to the divine energy within us and without the best our (sometimes I wonder) still-evolving brains allow. When our physical body ceases to function, the soul will experience consciousness in a very different manifestation. And that's just scientific - energy can't be destroyed, only change it's form!

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 10, 2012 6:45:48 PM PST
G. J. Stein says:
Macheath says: "...you sound almost exactly like the great Catholic writer and street preacher Frank Sheed"

Well that's interesting. I've never read him, but could site quite a few others who've inspired.

Hey, when you have five minutes check out this video that covers a bit on this topic, specifically our free will, and
influence of the mind, which is directly attached to both soul and spirit:

http://www.prageruniversity.com/Religion-Philosophy/Do-You-Have-Free-Will.html

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 10, 2012 6:54:30 PM PST
Consciousness is an emergent property of the brain. The soul is a metaphysical/religious/spiritual concept with no actual existence as far as a physically real state is concerned.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 10, 2012 7:19:38 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 10, 2012 7:21:15 PM PST
Macheath says:
Cool Gaelic, "divine energy within us", sounds like Saint Teresa of Avila describing God residing in the innermost mansion of the interior castle that is the soul.

Posted on Dec 10, 2012 7:35:26 PM PST
Macheath says:
What the heck, 3 no votes on the O.P. God people are petty here.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 10, 2012 7:41:57 PM PST
I'll give your posts a thumbs-up, buddy! <3

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 10, 2012 7:51:51 PM PST
Macheath says:
Thanks Gaelic!

Posted on Dec 11, 2012 1:12:52 PM PST
jpl says:
I'm amused by you fatuous believers and new-agers.

Posted on Dec 11, 2012 1:39:01 PM PST
Rubedo says:
I thought this topic was already kicked around in yonder thread:

http://www.amazon.com/forum/christianity/ref=cm_cd_tfp_ef__np?_encoding=UTF8&cdForum=Fx77WQHU8YS50Z&cdPage=11&cdThread=Tx2RL0YOFK6TIX9#CustomerDiscussionsNew

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 11, 2012 2:06:57 PM PST
Macheath says:
Yes, they both have the word "soul" in the title. What are the odds of that in the Christianity forum.

Posted on Dec 11, 2012 2:22:30 PM PST
Rubedo says:
I only see the two threads. How about you?

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 11, 2012 3:20:57 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 11, 2012 3:25:53 PM PST
Jeff Marzano says:
Macheath says:

[The idea that consciousness is your soul seems to be something that people have borrowed from Eastern religions and new age.]

I had the following message already saved about this subject so I'll just paste it in below. This message talks about the initiation rites that were practiced in Egypt and other places in the distant past.

The initiation rites were designed to allow people to reach high levels of spiritual enlightenment and answer questions about things like the soul. Some of the subjects the initiates learned about were magic, alchemy, mythology, astronomy and astrology, sacred geometry, and their divisions of the self that is listed below.

The Egyptian Book Of The Dead is not easy to understand at times. It seems to be talking about concepts that probably cannot be easily explained using language. I mentioned E.A. Wallace Budge's translation which I have here and started reading but did not finish.

There's also the different levels of consciousness which are the conscious, subconscious, and super conscious.

The relationships between time and this physical world are very mysterious. When the physical body dies the soul or spiritual body returns to a timeless dimension we call the spirit world or spiritual realm. Time does not exist in the spirit world. I guess it's like an eternal present or something.

One of my favorite strange theories is that people can be reincarnated into any time period past of future or even repeat the same life experience over again. Edgar Cayce apparently repeated the same life over again during the American Old West time period.

The mysteries of time was a favorite subject of Rod Serling and his Twilight Zone TV show. Some of the episodes that deal with time are:

Back There
No Time Like The Past
A Stop at Willoughby
Walking Distance
Queen Of The Nile *
Long Live Walter Jameson *
Spur of the Moment

* two of my personal favorites

Jeff Marzano

The Mummy (1932)

Initiation

The Lives of Edgar Cayce

The Twilight Zone: The Complete Definitive Collection

Jeff Marzano says:

Vicki says:

[Didn't they believe, for awhile. that their bodies had to be preserved as much as possible after death, so that they could live longer in the afterlife ?]

The ancient Egyptians had very mysterious ideas about death and the afterlife as is indicated by their strange mummification practices and their religion in general.

The Egyptians had more subdivisions of a person than just body, mind, and spirit. They had something called their 'divisions of the self' which I'm showing below. That list was compiled from E.A. Budge's translation of the Egyptian Book Of The Dead.

This list in some cases matches up with what Elisabeth Haich said about things like the different levels of consciousness. In her book Initiation Elisabeth recalls how some part of herself was traveling along with her mummified remains during her funeral. The Egyptians believed in reincarnation.

I started reading Budge's book but didn't finish it. I may pick it up again and read some more. It contains what I guess would be called spells or incantations that were found on Egyptian tombs and which were part of their religion. Not that they are evil spells but rather they involve making requests to the gods for protection in the spirit world and things like that.

I think Edgar Cayce stated that this book was originally called The Book Of Life.

Jeff Marzano

Egyptian Heritage: Based on the Edgar Cayce Readings

The author, Mark Lehner, was referring to E. A. Wallis Budge's translation of The Egyptian Book Of The Dead which contains their Divisions Of The Self:

a. Khat - the physical body of man considered as a whole

b. Ab - the heart, the source of life, good and evil, and the conscience.

c. Ka - translated "double". an ethereal alter ego which could leave the body in the tomb and inhabit any statue of the deceased. this life form could also enjoy life with the gods in Heaven.

d. Ba - the heart-soul, which could assume material and non material forms. it enjoyed eternal existence, and could unite with or leave the body at will. it was for the Ka and Ba that food offerings were left in the tomb.

e. Khaibit - associated with the Ba. "the shadow" could also leave the body at will and travel wherever it pleased.

f. Sekhem - "vital force" or "life force" of the individual. it is believed to dwell in heaven with the Khu. it is a term that translators are hard put to define.

g. Khu - the spirit-soul, the immortal part of man which went to heaven as soon as the body died.

h. Sahu - the lasting, incorruptible spirit-body, which incorporated all the ethereal elements of man within it.

i. Ren - the name of a man, believed to dwell in Heaven. the Egyptians were very careful to preserve their names because they believed that one existed only as long as his name was preserved.

According to Budge, "the whole man consisted of a natural body, a Spirit-body, a heart, a double, a Heart-soul, a shadow, a Spirit-soul, and a name. All these were, however, bound together inseparably, and the welfare of any single one of them concerned the welfare of all."

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 11, 2012 4:41:02 PM PST
What evidence is there to support the idea that souls exist?
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Discussion in:  Christianity forum
Participants:  17
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Initial post:  Dec 10, 2012
Latest post:  Dec 18, 2012

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