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Mary was sinless -- so get over it. (Part III)

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Initial post: Jun 3, 2012 3:44:33 PM PDT
Kevin Bold says:
Continuing the discussion of the poor quality of the Protestant "case" against Marian dogma, especially our Blessed Lady's Immaculate Conception.

Posted on Jun 3, 2012 3:53:44 PM PDT
Kevin Bold says:
pearlsofgrace says: Svendsen is brilliant and so I recommend his exhastive study of Rome's Mother Mary. It is truly enlightening and he is hated by RC apologists for very good reasons. I'm sure he gets a lot LOL!!! Har Har Har when they really cannot refute well. I have read their attempts, very funny!

"It is truly enlightening and he is hated by RC apologists for very good reasons."

1) This is a tacit admission that Svendsen's "scholarship" is truly poor.

2) Being unimpressed with Svendsen's "scholarship" doesn't indicate a personal dislike of the man.

And I doubt that Pearls has seriously read any of the excellent critiques of Svendsen's "theories."

Like this one, for example: http://tinyurl.com/7hvkj4c

Posted on Jun 3, 2012 3:56:29 PM PDT
"Eric Svendsen is a Protestant propagandist. He claims to have "proven" that _heos hou_ really does mean Mary and Joseph had relations after Christ was born (actually, it indicates the probability that they didn't).

Protestants like to pretend there's only one kind of until ("You're not going to have any dessert until you eat your vegetables!"). Only there's another kind ("Stay calm until help arrives."). This second kind of "until," where things don't change (staying calm AFTER help arrives is always recommended) is represented in Koine Greek with _heos hou_."

Thanks for the info, Kevin -

It's sad thinking of those who waste time trying to disprove the Church, and who might lead others astray. Well, maybe like many before him, he'll learn and accept the truth.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 3, 2012 3:58:23 PM PDT
Such sad efforts -

Thanks for the link, though.

Posted on Jun 3, 2012 4:07:43 PM PDT
Another awesome read:

Hail, Holy Queen

Posted on Jun 3, 2012 4:47:32 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jun 3, 2012 9:09:23 PM PDT
Kevin Bold,

From the previous thread.....

In reply, Barbara Lawlor said:

Regarding Protestants...

"So true, Kevin.

Very smart people, spending their time "redefining,"
and "redefining."

...but, they have been sent to us to purify the Church.

Happy blessed Sunday to you, Kevin!"

==

In reply, Kevin Bold said:

"I disagree. They delayed the Church's purification. Doctrine wasn't what needed
to be "reformed" -- it was men and policies."

Barbara says:

I do agree, with you, Kevin, Doctrine never needed to be reformed. By my
comment, "...but, they have been sent to us to purify the Church," I mean
"us," her people, the laity, even our priests, are purified.

By answering the Protestants' challenges, we have to think long and hard,
we have to delve into learning, we have to access references, we have to
contemplate what we were taught.

The challenges of the blessed Protestants, today, keep us, "on our toes," imho.

Posted on Jun 3, 2012 4:47:56 PM PDT
On another Mary:

Decoding Mary Magdalene: Truth, Legend, and Lies

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 3, 2012 4:55:21 PM PDT
Saint Karen says:
Yeah...Hello..."All Christians believe the Marian Dogmas????" What?!?!?!

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 3, 2012 5:11:07 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jun 3, 2012 5:13:35 PM PDT
Kevin Bold says:
Yup.

And those who don't certainly would if they would consider the facts.

Those who won't, because they're prejudiced, ignorant, or biased, are among "the tares."

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 3, 2012 5:14:34 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jun 3, 2012 5:16:18 PM PDT
Kevin Bold says:
Very basic, but solid, introductory books:

The Everything Mary Book: The Life And Legacy of the Blessed Mother (Everything (Religion))

The Everything Mary Magdalene Book: The Life And Legacy of Jesus' Most Misunderstood Disciple (Everything: Philosophy and Spirituality)

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 3, 2012 5:27:17 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jun 3, 2012 5:55:18 PM PDT
On the previous thread.....

""I realize you believe Jesus' humanity is denied if Mary's ovum wasn't used but I don't believe the Scriptures teach that"" --- Kathleen

In response to Kathleen, Raulito said:

"The inspired assumes the person reading the Scripture already believes that God has truly become united with our humanity, and embraced our humanity as his own."

"Otherwise, if the Incarnation was just a potluck, where God brought his own flesh, then God was never concerned with uniting Himself with "our" humanity. He came with his own flesh."

"He came as a stranger, not as one of us. It was flesh implanted in Mary's womb, as some form of surrogate motherhood."

"If so, Mary was never "mother" of Jesus." "

**

Barbara says:

Raulito, exactly, "IF...He came as a stranger, not as one of us. It was
flesh implanted in Mary's womb, as some form of surrogate
motherhood."

If Jesus did not use "the flesh of Mary," as her ovum, He would have
"come to us as a stranger," He would not have truly become, "one
of us," but would rather have been "some other type of being."

Raulito, this is the crux of the entire argument right here, I believe.

Thank you, for presenting this concept, so well.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 3, 2012 7:26:17 PM PDT
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Posted on Jun 3, 2012 8:22:27 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jun 3, 2012 8:58:43 PM PDT
Jay Runner says:
Pearls,

Reply from (II): I really prefer the KJV at Col. 1:14, but here is how the manuscript evidence stacks up. I'm hoping indent works here because this post will be a mess if it doesn't:

"En o exomen ten apolytrosin"
"In whom we have redemption"

The manuscript evidence (cited below) for the above (shorter) wording are all uncials:

Mss. Name Century

(aleph 01) Sinaiticus IV
(A 02) Alexandrinus V
(B 03) Vaticanus IV
(C 04) Ephaemi Rescriptus V
(D 06) Claromontanus VI
(F 010) IX
(G 012) IX
(Psi 044) VIII/IX
075 X
0150 IX

Note: after D 06 no other uncials are named, just designated

"En o exomen ten apolytrosin dia tou haimartos autou"
"In whom we have redemption through his blood"

There are no uncials containing the above (longer) wording. The best minuscules which contain the longer wording follow:

Mss. Century

424 XI
1912 X
2200 XIV
2464 IX

note: No miniscules are named

Source:

Greek New Testament, Aland et al, United Bible Societies, 1993

Aland gives the mss. designations for each case on p. 686 as note 7, and I looked them up from mss. tables he gives at the beginning of the book.

Victorinus and Gregory of Nyssa did quote the longer Col. 1:14 in their works, but more of the fathers quoted the shorter version.

The KJV contains a little more of what we know is true at Col. 1:14, but it was added in later and was not in the early mss.

Well, indent didn't work but it isn't too awful bad.

Posted on Jun 3, 2012 9:04:30 PM PDT
Cheri says:
Pearls hope to see you here every once and a while. Wish I had a way to get you my email. This week will be busy, I have a root canal on Tuesday. The bad thing is it has already had a root canal, but isfected under that one, go figure. Praying you are well.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 3, 2012 9:14:22 PM PDT
On the other thread, Faith said:

"Amen, Barbara -

Will light a candle for this intention today as well. Too, if you can (membership is free and open to everyone=) and care to:

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=599281 "

==

Faith, thank you for your kind invitation. I know I will learn
much, on the Catholic Answers Forum.

Btw, since they suggest screen names, I am on as 'LadyAvalon.'

Thanks, again, our Faith.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 3, 2012 11:28:55 PM PDT
Excellent, Barbara! =D

I'm "Pier" - who would have been my sister if one of my brothers had been a girl...LOL!

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 3, 2012 11:42:35 PM PDT
Jesus4us says:
Kevin Bold says:
Continuing the discussion of the poor quality of the Protestant "case" against Marian dogma, especially our Blessed Lady's Immaculate Conception.

spl: I'd say that Mary worship came from goddess worship from the pagan religions that infiltrated the Catholic church. The Catholic Church has been so corrupted for so long it's mind numbing. The RCC is the woman that rides the beast. And interesting that the Catholic Church is considered a "she", or "mother church".

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 3, 2012 11:45:20 PM PDT
Jesus4us says:
kb: Those who won't, because they're prejudiced, ignorant, or biased, are among "the tares."

spl: That's pretty confrontational! Just because we don't worship Mary? I think you're seriously deluded.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 4, 2012 1:11:42 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jun 4, 2012 3:46:36 PM PDT
I thought it odd nobody was posting at II, waiting for somebody to post, then I remembered we'd almost reached the limit this morning before I left for the day.

Your post looks great Jay, very clear. A, B does use 4 words. 1:14b.
I'd chose the flow of miniscule over eyestrain reading the uncials...Textus Receptus KJV "in whom we have redemption, > are several minuscule mss (614 630 1505 2464 al) < the forgiveness of sins."
Greek Orthodox use the minuscule manuscripts,standard Byzantine text.
The ancient Codex Alexandrinus,
I do also prefer KJV, textus receptus which has "14ἐ ᾧ ἔ ὴ ἀ ὰ ῦ ἵ ὐῦ, ὴ ἄ ῶ ἁῶ
( ᾧ We have the redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins;).

Vaticanus in unical= in quo habemus redemptionem remissionem peccatorum:
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the remission of sins:

Throwing away 89/19ths of the mss', Tischendorf renders -''such redemption shall I have son son son remission of sin."

I am uncertain really how accurate the 7 Greek mss' that Erasmus was using (Gr & complete Vaticanus) that laid the foundation for Textus Receptus. Over 80% of miniscules make up the Byzantine text.
It seems Wescott & Hort threw it together in jumbled fashion which renders textus so often mixed and lacking.
Lachmann using 4 mss' rendered a Greek New Testament very different from textus Receptus.
I have zeroxes of P46- Chester Beatty, will have to look for as I think :14 is missing in this letter.
4th c or later Eusebian canons (Alexandrian texts) see (Ammonian numbers), chose =Vulgate per Constantine.
Col 1:14a 4 words p46 & p61 Sinai, A Boharic 1 wd,
1:14 "redemption through his blood" is in Slavonic, Armenian, Clementine Vulgate "redemption" 4 words counted in totals.

Byzantine Lectionary, Wordsworth-White Vulgate, Stuttgart Vulgate only contain "redemption".

I really think the Jesuit's 'black pope' sent Wescott and Dr. Hort to the Anglican church. In the end Dr. Fenton Hort justified his abbreviated text and put forward that the Vatican Codex B as the purest text and nearest to the original autographs. The discovery of Alexandrian texts discovered about the time their went to print.

Vatican began sending Jesuits to infiltrate the Protestant theological seminaries and Bible societies. These became filled them as professors teaching Greek using Nestle's Greek text, used to each how inaccurate the King James version really is. The deity of Christ has been downplayed, salvation by grace through faith, the resurrection and second coming of Christ.

The reason for the Catholic ecumenical movement, for the Jesuit order, and for all the corrupted manuscripts and Bibles, is to destroy the Protestant faith, and bring those who left Catholicism, back into their fold. Look into the Spanish Armada where Jesuits secretly hid on the ships with the plan to kill, destroy, flay and spear every man woman and infant where a KJV was found. Despite W&H's great feat, it was all about "Absolute Control" over the people.

Jesus in Luke- 20:46 "Beware of the scribes.".

At the Council and Terragona (1234) forbade the laity to read the vernacular translations of the Bible. Pius IV required bishops to refuse lay persons leave to read even Catholic versions of Scripture unless their confessors or parish priests judged that such reading was likely to prove beneficial." (Catholic Dictionary, p. 82).
Council of Toulouse, 1229, Canon 14 "We prohibit the permission of the books of the Old and New Testament to laymen, except perhaps they might desire to have the Psalter, or some Breviary for the divine service, or the Hours of the blessed Virgin Mary, for devotion; expressly forbidding their having the other parts of the Bible translated into the vulgar tongue" (Pierre Allix, Ecclesiastical History of Ancient Churches of the Albigenses, published in Oxford at the Clarendon Press in 1821, reprinted in USA in 1989 by Church History Research & Archives, P.O. Box 38, Dayton Ohio, 45449, p. 213).

...of Toulouse in 1229, the Catholic Church prohibited the people from possessing or reading the Bible in their native language.

In 1546 at the Council of Trent, the Vatican declared the Apocrypha "Holy writ," and an official part of their Old Testament canon. Anyone rejecting this was damned as a heretic and burned at the stake. This law is still in effect today.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 4, 2012 1:15:53 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jun 7, 2012 2:01:41 AM PDT
Hi Cheri,
Root canal sounds horrible. I have a freind that had one and his face really swelled, he came right over after he had it. You should probably begin anti-biotics immediately, not sure if the dentist will do much with and infection present. Do you see the dentist before Tue? I'm sorry :(
I'm praying for you also!

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 4, 2012 1:22:19 AM PDT
I doubt anyone who worships Mary as the Pius's prescribed for Catholics would ever pay compliment to Eric Svendsen's wonderful scholarship! He proves his points with excellence-yes, I am aware of all of the RC b*tch fest over his "lacking scholarship" LOL!

There's a very good reason you guys hate him! :)

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 4, 2012 1:26:54 AM PDT
The biggest propagandist were the two last Pp's Pius carting their worship of the Roman Goddess you call Mary.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 4, 2012 1:34:04 AM PDT
Faith, does the Apostolic doctrine make evident Jesus loved Mary Magdalene?

Who is it that He chose to see first upon Resurrecting from the dead.

Who's broken and pierced heart was comforted by His loving care to Present Himself Risen from the dead?

By His actions, who was made the Apostle to the Apostles?

Were these His earthly mother? Or Mary Magdalene his companion as the apocryphal mss' state?

Posted on Jun 4, 2012 1:44:14 AM PDT
Kevin Bold says:
Luk 1:38 And Mary said, "BEHOLD, I AM THE HANDMAID OF THE LORD; LET IT BE TO ME ACCORDING TO YOUR WORD." And the angel departed from her.
In the Vulgate, "let" is the same "let" as in "Let there be light":
Luke 1:38 dixit autem Maria ecce ancilla Domini FIAT mihi secundum verbum tuum et discessit ab illa angelus
Gen 1:3 dixitque Deus FIAT lux et facta est lux
(It's not "missing from [your] Bible," Pearls. It's missing from your personal knowledge.)

You're right Kevin. I conceed this.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 4, 2012 3:10:46 AM PDT
Karen,

RE: "Yeah...Hello...'All Christians believe the Marian Dogmas????' What?!?!?!"

That's just Mr. Bold's "polite" statement that he believes only Roman Catholics are Christians...

Grace and Peace, Sister,

S.D.G.
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Initial post:  Jun 3, 2012
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