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If I don't believe that God is a Trinity, will I go to hell?


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Showing 1-25 of 573 posts in this discussion
Initial post: Feb 16, 2012 11:51:04 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Feb 16, 2012 12:05:38 PM PST
ABOTA says:
This is another of those, "Does one get damned for believing the wrong stuff?" discussions.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 16, 2012 12:00:40 PM PST
B. Josephson says:
Yes, ABOTA, when you die, you are given a test for correct beliefs.

You not only hve to believe in the Trinity, but you have to answer whether the orignal Nicene Creed is correct or if the filoque clause shoudl have been added.

Since only a handfull of people understand the doctrine of trinity, and I am not one of them, I guess I lose out.

Hope you do better.

Best Wishes,
Shaamba Kaambwaat

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 16, 2012 12:04:57 PM PST
ABOTA says:
Is it multiple choice? Best two out of three? Any other hints?

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 16, 2012 12:10:02 PM PST
B. Josephson says:
No, you have to understand the trinity, not the binity.

Best Wishes,
Shaamba Kaambwaat

Posted on Feb 16, 2012 12:23:19 PM PST
ian says:
No, you do not have to believe the trinity.

Faith in the power that raised Jesus from the dead in enough.

What believing in the "cross" is, is believing that the power that raised Jesus from the dead is available to any one who puts their faith in Jesus resurrection power. Its not only forgiveness from sin, it is life that will be given in the form of Gods spirit of transformation to those who are spiritually dead while they still live.

When they die physically , that life that was put in the believer upon their confession of faith (to Jesus), will also resurrect them to a new physical body. the new body will be indestructible, so that it may be with God forever.

This why Jesus is called the firstborn from the dead, because He is the first to receve this new body. Believe in the power that raised him from the dead, and you will be given new life in this life, and never taste death in the next life.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 16, 2012 1:08:04 PM PST
Craig says:
ian says: "No, you do not have to believe the trinity.
Faith in the power that raised Jesus from the dead in enough"

The power that raised Jesus from the dead, wouldn't that be God? So faith in God is all one needs, no special formulas?

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 16, 2012 1:16:23 PM PST
You asked two questions. Which one do you want answered? Or is it both?

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 16, 2012 1:19:32 PM PST
Kevin Bold says:
It depends.

Do you disbelieve because you don't understand it? No one understands it perfectly, y'know.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 16, 2012 1:20:11 PM PST
Do you get to phone a friend?

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 16, 2012 1:43:29 PM PST
ABOTA says:
Or poll the audience?

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 16, 2012 4:42:01 PM PST
ian says:
Craig, "wouldn't that be God?" That would be an over simplified answer.

God must be defined. Jesus is God, that is why His power is the only one that will raise a person to life. Jesus being God, raised Himself up from the grave. He has the power to "lay down and take up" His is own life. (Jn 10:17)

Since this power is the true and only one, God cannot be ambiguous, His spirit must be specific and a person. The spirit within Him is apart from the trinity, but belief in that spirit is not a condition of salvation.

Since Jesus is God, then the power inside Him is also apart of Him though it may also dwell in you apart from Him. That spirit also has a mind of its own and is its own separate entity, but at the same time is one in the same as Jesus. Jesus and this spirit are in immaculate community with God the Father. This perfect community is what is called trinity, or three who function as one.

People who want to understand the nature of God usually study who he is, but study of the trinity does not bring about salvation.

But, you do not have to understand all this, only have faith in Jesus power of authority to resurrect can also dwell in you.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 16, 2012 4:51:07 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Feb 16, 2012 4:54:15 PM PST
The one thing that sends us to hell is us. "Hell is locked from the inside".

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 16, 2012 6:49:13 PM PST
mrs exp says:
ABOTA,
I surely hope not. Who can say that they believe all the right things.
exp

Posted on Feb 16, 2012 8:13:36 PM PST
Lj3d says:
since my position is one in which I see religion as a human construct driven by the need to address fear, justice and morality...I'm not concerned about going to hell over whether God is a Trinity or anything else.

Posted on Feb 17, 2012 12:54:43 PM PST
ian says:
If every thing is clear, you can see through every thing, everything is transparent, it would be like looking into a world where every thing in is is made of glass. In a world made of glass, the people are blind.

Once a thing becomes solid, coherent, tangible, opaque to our vision then it may be seen.

So it is with faith. if you can see through every argument then you are blind. If you believe in nothing, you have no foundation. Faith happens when what we see with our eyes expands the understanding of our ideal. But if what we see shuts down our desire to comprehend mystery, then we are arrogant fools who believe we have all the answers.

An infinite universe without a purpose, or a designed order is a thing without hope. If there is no hope, then there is no point to exist.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 17, 2012 1:32:23 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Feb 17, 2012 2:02:10 PM PST
B Josephson

Yes. when you die you not only must believe in, even if you do not understand, three in one and one in three, you must also take sides on the filioque, not forgetting that you must also explain the differences between "ἐkporeuomenon" (Greek) and "procedit" (Latin) and indicate as well which meaning you believe in, whether the procession was temporal only or forever, AND whether any generation OR spiration (indicating WHICH you personally believe in) was involved so far as Christ and/or the Holy Ghost was concerned, or you fail entirely. I mean really, the answer is only obvious for a "true" Christian so why worry. :)

Nearly all the Nicene bishops spoke Latin, but read Greek weakly. When they eventually came to realize what the Greek creed said, maybe a thousand years later, they changed the words to conform to their own understanding. On judgment day, just change it all into English and your own understanding, and things should work out. I mean what could be clearer. You will not be questioned as to any biblical phrases, so do try to get the creed right, in particular the "ousious", concerning which you must be VERY specific. While no one understands it completely, you must be able to understand it to the requisite degree, which is either 51%, 99%, or somewhere in between. If all else fails, you could say you believe the whole matter to be a mystery--this might get you through, since it is completely correct. :)

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 18, 2012 4:10:47 AM PST
Ambulocetus says:
My understanding, given the "sheep and goats" thing in Matthew 25, is that you only go to hell for failing to do right by "the least of these"--failing to help the poor, failing to visit people in prison, etc.

There aren't ten people alive today who properly understand the doctrine of the trinity. In fact, there isn't one of them, because it's incoherent gibberish, a meatless bone for the mind to gnaw on rather than dealing with things which are actually of value to living a moral, fulfilling, and/or pleasurable life.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 18, 2012 4:21:00 AM PST
Yes.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 18, 2012 5:48:52 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Feb 18, 2012 5:50:56 AM PST
ABOTA, No, only for sinning against others, and showing no remorse, (Luke 13:5) as we shall each receive as our WORKS deserve, (Revelation 2:23, Matthew 16:27, John 5;29), not our faith, (1 Corinthians 13:2, John 13:25), for faith without works is dead, (james 2) and only then can one inherit the Heaven that Jesus has purchased for us all by His Most Precious Blood. Peace always in the Most Precious Blood of Christ

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 18, 2012 6:01:46 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Feb 18, 2012 11:52:46 AM PST
Daniel Dickson

Nice piece of prose and good exposition on one of the more ambiguous attempts to improve on scripture. Those who write against Arianism tend to see it as black and white, or good vs. bad. The idea was that Arianism demoted Christ by declaring him to be a SON. If you see it that way, then one must be against it. However, the Arians did NOT see that it in any way affected Christ, simply that as the Son he was FROM the Father, which in no way offended their idea of Christ's godhood.

Lingering desire to make Christ identical with the father, rather than merely of the same, or one, "ousious", led to the filioque debate, which has not ended. The nicene creed was not necssary and did not settle things. It only gave a word formula which, for a time, satisfied some people.

Eusebius, with good credentials, acceded to Constantine and voted against his long cherished Arianism, (Eusebius owed his library at Cesarea to Origen, a well known Arian) but after the council Constantine decided he really didn't like the Athanasian solution and took away Athanasius's bishopric.

Since Constantine was not a Christian at the time, we have to wonder about the ABSOLUTE doctrine of the Nicene Creed. All is not lost if we decide to part from this particular piece of dogma.

We do still have the New Testament, which might get us by even if the Nicene Creed is ultimately revealed to be too ambiguous for any kind of
solid agreement.

The idea we could live lives of dark sin, and ultimately get a free pass because we happen to sort it out right on filioque is the ultimate theological illogic. It is theillogic.

Sorting out the Nicene Creed is not the same thing as throwing ourselves on the mercy of Christ. Hence, if somone wants to read the opinion of a group of Dark Ages bishops, I have no objection. I just do not want to be held to their opinion. We have access to many more documents in this day and age, and still cannot agree, so I guess we will just have to be satisfied with the bible, even if it was not edited by secularly appointed philosophers.

Those who worship according to legalistic religion will find that the gospel is suited for and designed around the least of us, not only the philosophers. I don't think the Nicene Creed has anything very helpful for the common man who likes to hear, think, and speak in intelligible propositions. Somehow I just don't think the university has been built yet which can explain the nature of God. You learn that on your knees.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 18, 2012 6:07:54 AM PST
Tammy says:
Y'shua will judge. His justice and mercy are perfect. Not one of us (humans) are righteous.

I don't believe in the three in one. I believe in the three. I can not help what I believe to be true or false. I am either convinced/convicted of something or I am not.

I am able to pretend I believe something, in order to pacify others, but what good is that? G-d knows my heart and my thoughts. He can not be fooled.

It is a question I ask Him all the time. "Is the "trinity" as explained by Christianity true? Am I wrong?" He has not, as of yet, directly answered in any way that I can identify. But it is also possible that He has answered and I have missed it. So I just keep asking. He knows I am honestly seeking truth, and I think that He accepts the honest seeking of truth as an offering that pleases Him.

See, I won't be devastated by the answer of the "trinity" question either way. It is what it is.

I think our willingness to accept the truth, and our willingness to submit to it and to G-d, will be taken into account by Him at the judgement.

Just my opinion.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 18, 2012 11:57:43 AM PST
Answer to Daniel Dickson-LaPrade statement.

<<There aren't ten people alive today who properly understand the doctrine of the trinity. In fact, there isn't one of them, because it's incoherent gibberish, a meatless bone for the mind to gnaw on rather than dealing with things which are actually of value to living a moral, fulfilling, and/or pleasurable life.>>
=========================================================
San Diego Question.

Do you want a quick and dirty answer to who/what the Trinity is or one that is long & detailed?

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 18, 2012 12:06:18 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Feb 18, 2012 12:07:04 PM PST
LDSaint says:
No. But people who don't repent of their sins, you will.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 18, 2012 11:59:12 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Feb 19, 2012 3:48:49 PM PST
San Diego

Your offer to explain the trinity is problemmatic in one respect. It is certain to lead to a contest over words today, just as it did in antiquity, from the Dark Ages, during the Medieval era, and on through the Reformation.

We already have too much sectarian contest here in this forum. For the most part, we should support other Christians, but the divisions and sentiment here frequently have nothing to do with Christianity and are not worded respectfully, as Christians should speak to each other. We quarrel like the bishops who attended the meeting at Nicaea.

No one, especially me, wishes to say anything derogatory about someone's religious faith. Some people are so defensive, that anything other than utter and complete agreement WITH THEM gives offense. If the Nicene Creed were straightforward, it should present no problem. However, it is difficult to find any proposition ever written which is less straightforward than the Nicene Creed. Hence, many feel we may consider it for what it is worth, but the Bible must remain our source for doctrine, superior to any word formula drafted by committees. Salvation would still be available had the bishops never drafted the Nicene Creed.

However, I do not believe the wording of the Nicene Creed expresses things in terms which make sense. It is not reasonable that God would require for salvation belief in propositions that are unintelligible.

The councils themselves recognized the problems inherent in the word formula, and kept holding councils which revised, changed, etc. We know what the Nicene Creed 325 A.D. says as words, but it is worded in Greek, so any explanation must actually explain the Greek. That is what has caused so much dissension even among those who claim to believe the Nicene Creed.

Forced by the neoplatonists ridicule of the unintelligible nature of the Nicene Creed, Gregory of Nyssa (who first used the word "trinity" for the Godhead, said that "God and Christ are of the same substance just as all men are of the same substance because they are all men" But that is not how the creed is being read today. The late insertion in time of the filioque clause indicates there are aspects which are never going to be acceptable to those trying to fully explain the Nicene Creed. The wording keeps pushing people into blind alleys because the idea Christ is only an emanation makes it even harder to explain how he emanated the Holy Ghost, rather than the Father emanating the Holy Ghost, presuming that any emanation occured, rather than Christ having a being in his own right, and being coeternal with God, as His Son. Would it not have been better for the council to say "God is beyond man's comprehension, so no explanation of his nature can be composed which you can put in your hip pocket and walk away with it."

The Bible took no interest in "emanation". That was a concept of the Alexandrian School of Philosophy. Salvation would have been available even if the council at Nicaea had never been held. Christ's godship, and equality with the Father was intact, even if no one decided to call him an emanation.

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 16, 2012 3:31:27 PM PDT
Daniel Dickson-LaPrade says:
My understanding, given the "sheep and goats" thing in Matthew 25, is that you only go to hell for failing to do right by "the least of these"--failing to help the poor, failing to visit people in prison, etc.

There aren't ten people alive today who properly understand the doctrine of the trinity. In fact, there isn't one of them, because it's incoherent gibberish, a meatless bone for the mind to gnaw on rather than dealing with things which are actually of value to living a moral, fulfilling, and/or pleasurable life.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Jeremy Crockett says:
To: San Diego

This is tangential to this discussion, but my concern (as far as being really born again, as far as being a true Christian) is that I "got that" information from an external source, if you take my meaning. In other words, since 1997 I've been reading commentaries, visiting forums and moderately attending churches that hold the Bible as the ultimate authority but I seem to lack "insight" or being taught by the Holy Spirit, do you see what I mean? Anyway, sorry to digress.
-------------------------------------------------------------
San Diego reply:
I understand fully and will cover all the necessary details (will take one or two more posts).
In the meantime the below is a repeat of the "Essence of God". The repeat is for two reasons.

One, some of the content below has been changed from the prior post and will partially address your above statement and more importantly this post below is designed to be placed on the ("How can any human being choose of his or her own free will to go to Hell?) thread.
Where it will answer a multitude of conversations that have been and probably will continue to be posted there.

"Trinity" link (one of many) @ bottom of post. Amazon threads being what they are the servers do not allow for sufficient space to fully detail an all inclusive answer.

THE ESSENCE OF GOD

Definition: God is a Trinity with reference to persons (as an example use light with three main components of Actinic, Calorific & Luminiferous (see definitions at bottom). He (singular - all three members) have the same attributes which reveal Who and What (He - they) are. Essence is what He is, or, in other words, His intrinsic nature. All three members are coequal and coeternal.

1. Sovereignty. God is the Supreme Being of the Universe and, thus, the Highest King (Ps. 47:7; 115:3; Heb. 6:13; Eph. 4:6).

2. Righteousness. God is absolute righteousness. He has no sin, nor has He ever sinned (Ps. 145:17; Isa. 45:21; Rom. 3:26).

3. Justice. God is Just and cannot be unfair (2 Chron. 19:7; Zeph. 3:5; Nahum 1:3; Hab. 1:13a).

4. Love. God is love (intrinsically) without the need for an object. Love (when directed toward man) is God putting value on mankind and reaching out to man (John 3:16). Love is the motivation for grace (1 John 4:7 19). And Grace is the end result of the Justice and Righteousness of God being satisfied due to Christ work on the Cross. The resulting option for all members of the human race is whether the "individual" accepts or rejects that work on their behalf. If they accept then they are saved Jn. 3:36A, and if they reject then Jn. 3:36B applies because the one sin (singular) Christ could not die for on the Cross was refusing the righteousness and justice of God executed on the Cross.
4a. Jhn 16:8-9; "And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin (singular), and of righteousness, and of judgment: "of sin, because they do not believe in Me".
4b. All the sin(s) of the entire human race (past, present & future) were poured out on the humanity of Christ (a judicial imputation) during the second three hours, he was on the cross from 9am to 3pm. Refusing to accept him as Savior (Gods grace in action) means the individual has refused the Absolute Righteousness of God as per this statement, Mat 5:20; "For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven". The result is that the only option God then has is the exercise of his Absolute Justice here, Mat 25:46; "And these will go away into everlasting punishment" or here, Jn. 3:36B; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." Or here, Rev 20:15; And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire". God has done all the work, individual humans only have to accept or reject that work "personally".

5. Eternal Life. God is eternal life, which has neither beginning nor end (Ps. 90:2).

6. Omniscience. God is all knowledge (Col. 2:3; 2 Tim. 2:19; John 2:24). "Omni" means "all".

7. Omnipresence. God is everywhere at the same time, yet is NOT a part of nature (Prov. 15:3; Ps. 139:7 12; Matt. 28:20).

8. Omnipotence. God is limitless in ability, power, and authority (Matt.28:18; Heb. 1:3; Luke 1:37; Phil. 4:13).

9. Immutability. God is neither capable of nor susceptible to change (James 1:17; Heb. 13:8).

10. Veracity. God is perfect truthfulness. There never is a time when He is in error. God cannot lie (Titus 1:2; Heb. 6:18; Ps. 117:2; John 14:6; Num. 23:19).

Nota Bene: Now for a direct applicability to the Amazon thread titled "How can any human being choose of his or her own free will to go to Hell?
The title of that thread has two mistakes. It asked "How" where the correct question should be "Why" do individuals end up in Hell?
The answer to the "Why" is contained in the subject details mentioned above in this post.

The second mistake is the originator of that post asked the wrong question of the wrong individuals (namely humans on an Amazon conversation thread) where she should have simply addressed the question of "Why" to God.

Which is the purpose for the Canon, to answer the Who, What, When, Where, Why and How questions by the humans.
God (the second person of the Trinity as per the 1st chapter of John) choose of his own free will to become a man and die for the sins of the entire human race. Accept it and you are saved as per the murderer crucified on his right stated here, Luk 23:43; And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." Reject it and you will note the name and person of the other individual crucified on the left side is not mentioned. The choice is yours to make personally, no one can decide for you. God is a gentleman he does not coerce the volition of anyone. That is why you have the following statement by Christ here, Jhn 19:30; So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit". And the result for those who accept is here; Hbr 10:14; For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified". Religion says do, do, do. Christ said done (the Greek text means "a point in time, separated from time, and continued forever).

Here is another (in principle) example of a religious unbeliever vs. a believer.

Luk 18:9 thru 14; "Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
"Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
"The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, 'God, I thank You that I am not like other men--extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector.
'I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.'
"And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise [his] eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me a sinner!'
"I tell you, this man went down to his house justified [rather] than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."

Nota Bene: Whoever reads this post (wherever it is found) if you remember nothing remember the following.
Time has no bearing with God. They knew all of human history before they created man as per, Isa 46:10; "Declaring the end from the beginning," And as such they knew that in the entire history of the human race sooner or later every individual would commit a personal sin at some point. So they made provision in Eternity past here, Rev 13:8; "written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" for the second member of the Trinity to become human and die for all the sin(s) of the entire race. And since they deal in the realm of the absolute they simply condemned the entire human race to spiritual death by the action of one individual here, 1Cr 15:22; "For as in Adam all die," which subsequently allowed them (in absolute Righteousness and Absolute Justice) to make provision for the entire human race to be saved by the action of one individual (Christ on the cross). The one sin (singular) as stated above in this post that Christ cannot die for is an individual refusing to accept Christ as savior. That is the only reason individuals end up in Hell as per the above listed references. That is why if you look closely at the Great White Throne Judgment of Rev 20:11ff, you will find no mention made of sins. Reason being that all sins of the entire human race were adjudicated over 2000 years ago. There is no double jeopardy. In the Greek text of this passage the "works" mentioned are the human good deeds that religious unbelievers thought would get them into heaven as a human rational substitute for the Absolute Righteousness and Absolute Justice of God executed on the Cross. God has done all the work. Both for condemnation and salvation. The only thing a human has to do is either accept or reject as per Jn. 3:36 A or B and the example of the human crucified on the cross to the right of Christ here (Luk 23:43), see text in prior paragraph.

Actinic, Calorific & Luminiferous: Since there are many web sites which provide the details on this subject and its analogy to the "Trinity", I just picked one from an extensive batch and its link is below.

http://www.gbible.org/index.php?proc=d4d&sf=rea&did=35
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