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Best of the Balkans -- Nominees are...


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Posted on Dec 22, 2012 4:32:05 PM PST
Max O. says:
Nominate:
Enescu: Violin Sonata #3
Xenakis: Pithoprakta
I'm not ready to give up on the Balkans! I've never even heard of Skalkottas. Hopefully more discoveries will come for myself and others.

Posted on Dec 22, 2012 7:05:17 AM PST
It looks like Skalkottas wins.

Posted on Dec 19, 2012 8:14:38 AM PST
Sorry, think the original phrase was something like "musical education / musical coming of age" Mahler was at Vienna from the 14 to 19 yrs. Chopin "grew up in Warsaw and completed his music education there; he composed many of his mature works in Warsaw before leaving Poland in 1830 at age 20."

In order to move this along, and since the frame for groupings began as linguistic -- and Balkan Sprachbund is a acknowledged phenom with a Wikipedia entry n all -- please let's go with the OP parameters. But here will be a Balkan Group and a separate Italian Group running side-by-side in the thread.

Here's what we have so far

Balkans
~~~~~
* voting list*
Skalkottas : 36 Greek Danses
* nominated *
Enescu : Oedipe

Italians
~~~~~
* voting list*
n/a
* nominated *
Puccini : Tosca
Verdi : Requiem

Posted on Dec 19, 2012 2:59:52 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 19, 2012 3:24:15 AM PST
Skaynan says:
"By the coming of age criteria I was gonna put Mahler in Austria. Wasn't he at the Vienna Conservatory from 14 to 22 or something like that?"

Mahler was a Bohemian Jew. By that logic, we should have placed Chopin in the French game, but we didn't...

To quote Mahler:
"thrice homeless, as a native of Bohemia in Austria, as an Austrian among Germans, as a Jew throughout the world-always an intruder, never welcomed"

Posted on Dec 19, 2012 2:52:04 AM PST
Including Italy would not give the Slobovians a fair chance as they would get wiped out by Puccini, Verdi Donizetti,Belini et al.
I second the 36 Greek Danses by Skalkottas.

Posted on Dec 18, 2012 6:47:32 PM PST
mojoworking says:
I think Ken's suggestion of Southeast Europe (leaving Italy out of it) and any other bits of Eastern Europe not already included so far would work.

Any composers clearly belonging to the Austro-Germanic tradition (subjective, I know) should be saved for the Berlin/Vienna game, e.g. Mahler.

Posted on Dec 18, 2012 5:09:21 PM PST
Oh, right. But that was a composer game, not a musical works by Soviet/Russian composers game.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 18, 2012 5:07:59 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 18, 2012 5:11:37 PM PST
KenOC says:
Peter the game was August this year. "Russian and Soviet composers." Specification: "Russian" means growing up anyplace that was or would become part of the USSR.

You nominated Silvestrov and Kancheli and seconded Roslavets. Yes, I have too much time on my hands.

Posted on Dec 18, 2012 4:56:13 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 18, 2012 4:56:49 PM PST
We didn't do Soviet Union. I would have nominated composers from Ukraine and Georgia (one time Soviet Republics) if we had. We only did Russia, by my recollection.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 18, 2012 4:15:06 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 18, 2012 4:41:34 PM PST
KenOC says:
MZ, I remember now. We did composers born in or of age in any territory that would be or was in the Soviet Union. This excluded a lot of Eastern Eropean countries but included the Baltic states since they became SSRs at the end of WW II. Pärt was nominated.

Maybe a "Southeastern Europe"? Don't want Spain sneaking in there. Looking at the map I see Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania, Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Serbia, Bulgaria, Montenegro, Macedonia, Albania, Moldavia, Greece, and Italy. Austria's a problem. But this list excludes (I think) former SSRs.

"Countries that are always going Communist or going broke" maybe. ;-)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0e/Europe_countries_map_en_2.png

Posted on Dec 18, 2012 3:57:52 PM PST
Think we threw the Baltics in with Russia but got no nominees. As far as I know we haven't done Poland, Czech Rep, Slovakia, etc.

By the coming of age criteria I was gonna put Mahler in Austria. Wasn't he at the Vienna Conservatory from 14 to 22 or something like that?

How 'bout renaming the Meditterean Rim or Con Mortuis in Lingua Mortua? Italy & Greece makes more sense to me than having the Slavs & Hungary pick up Greece.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 18, 2012 3:21:13 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 18, 2012 3:23:27 PM PST
KenOC says:
MZ, I think we had a Soviet Bloc game, which included the Baltic countries as well. Of course Russians dominated it. Greece is definitely "in" on the Balkans according to what I can tell.

BTW the etymology section discusses languages spoken in the "Balkan" area, not whether countries belong in the area of not. Italy doesn't seem to, nor (except in a very minor way) does Turkey. Maybe a better guide would be the "Balkan Peninsula," which Wiki says includes:

Albania
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Bulgaria
Greece
Kosovo[a]
Macedonia
Montenegro
Croatia
Serbia

Wiki adds: "The term "The Balkans" covers not only those countries which lie within the boundaries of the Balkan Peninsula, but may also include Slovenia and Romania. Prior to 1991 the whole of Yugoslavia was considered to be part of the Balkans. The term "The Balkans" is sometimes used to describe only the areas in the Balkan peninsula: Moesia, Macedonia, Thrace, Kosovo, Šumadija, Bosnia, Herzegovina, Dalmatia, Thessaly, Epirus, Peloponnese and others, but more often it includes the rest of former Yugoslavia (Serbia, Croatia and Slovenia) and Romania,namely the provinces of: Vojvodina, Slavonia, Banat, Wallachia, Moldavia, Transylvania, and others. Italy as a totality, is generally accepted as part of Western Europe and the Apennines."

Any way you cut it, without Italy it's thin pickins.

Posted on Dec 18, 2012 3:13:09 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 18, 2012 3:13:32 PM PST
Skaynan says:
Off topic, can't resist: Where WOULD you place Mahler? He himself didn't seem to know..

Posted on Dec 18, 2012 2:45:43 PM PST
Grieg, Sibelius, Nielsen were covered in Runic Staves. Dvorak & Chopin would be hit in a future non-Russian Slavic game, but I'd prefer to hold off on that til after the holidays.

Posted on Dec 18, 2012 2:37:59 PM PST
Skaynan says:
What would we do with Dvorak, Grieg, Sibelius, Nielsen, Chopin, and even to some degree Mahler?

Posted on Dec 18, 2012 2:35:12 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 18, 2012 2:41:16 PM PST
Thanks, Ken. As I said in the OP, I'd use the first list in that article. The one under Etymology. Could change the title of the voting round to something more appropriate. To me it would be weird to include Greece in the old Soviet bloc countries.

Posted on Dec 18, 2012 11:49:40 AM PST
mojoworking says:
What would you guys do w Greece?

Include it with the Balkans?

Posted on Dec 18, 2012 10:08:50 AM PST
KenOC says:
Lots of difficulties in defining the Balkans. This may help (or not).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkan_states

Posted on Dec 18, 2012 10:04:40 AM PST
What would you guys do w Greece?

Posted on Dec 18, 2012 7:18:59 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 18, 2012 12:07:35 PM PST
Personally, I think it makes more sense to do a "Composers from the Former Eastern Bloc" countries, and include the Balkans there as well as all those former Soviet republics, minus Russia. I don't think there is enough from the Balkans to sustain a game.

Posted on Dec 18, 2012 3:16:22 AM PST
mojoworking says:
I second DM's vote for a separate game for Italy - it is a country exceedingly rich in composers and the thought of having the likes of Verdi, Puccini, Donizetti, Bellini, Vivaldi, etc mixed in with the likes of Enescu and Skalkottas really doesn't make sense to me...

Plus, if Italy is included, the thread title needs changing, as the whole of Italy has never been in the Balkans, only certain parts of the peninsula as far as I am aware. Personally, I never think of Italy as part of the Balkans.

Posted on Dec 18, 2012 12:53:34 AM PST
nom :
Verdi : Requiem
Puccini : Tosca

Posted on Dec 17, 2012 11:14:05 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 17, 2012 11:21:51 PM PST
OOPS...thanks for the catch on the number, DM. I copied that from another game and when voting starts it will be cut-n-paste from the get-go.

I've revised the number. I like vocal works even though they've been non-gratia generally ;-)

Posted on Dec 17, 2012 10:53:49 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 17, 2012 10:56:13 PM PST
David Mayer says:
From my reading of Wikipedia, the following countries are included in the Balkans:

Albania, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Croatia, Greece, Kosovo, Macedonia, Montenegro, Romania, Serbia, Turkey, and Slovenia

Italy is an ambiguous case. Some groupings include it; others don't. I think it's musically fecund enough to support its own game, but that's just one opinion.

A second opinion: as much as I love Enescu, Vladigerov, and Skalkottas, and respect Xenakis, this is a not a region that has produced much famous music. It may be prudent to lower the cap from 75 to 25.

Posted on Dec 17, 2012 10:15:50 PM PST
David Mayer says:
Nominate:

Enescu: Oedipe
Skalkottas: 36 Greek Dances
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Discussion in:  Classical Music forum
Participants:  8
Total posts:  26
Initial post:  Dec 17, 2012
Latest post:  Dec 22, 2012

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