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"Politically Charged" Barenboim yet again.


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Posted on May 3, 2012 5:16:40 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 3, 2012 5:22:50 AM PDT
scarecrow says:
Well Henry is right, these discussions do get out of control; I think because no one accepts working toward a middle, it is either this "You are with me or against me. . ." nothing in between. .
And this issue does foment hatred for everyone; Nothing is resolved with this. . . So . .

1)In not taking sides, you are taking sides, you simply want the situation to continue as is; would be the first issue;
1a) which is why there are no sides to take, we all should work to resolving this problem, understanding it deeply;
2) get rid of the bias, there is plenty of it;in fact that's all you get in the USA Media. . .
3) there is such a thing as Jewish Fundamentalism, look it up it is never mentioned, too embarrassing for most American Jews--, it is every bit as militant extreme as the other brand names we all know and love of the Fundamentalists. . .
4) Why should the Arts be thrown into this cause,?, how about people children dead every day in Africa, the Congo, 10 million dead over the past 14 years- from malnutrition, wars, genocide, diseases;
5) if you look, there is plenty of interesting works in the visual arts on the political Middle East; photographers;painters;
6) Composer Dror Feiler has works that are pro-Palestinian. He's the only one I know from youtube, and Issa Boulos, a Palestinian composer.

Posted on May 2, 2012 10:37:54 AM PDT
Henry Kaspar says:
Political debates - especially if related to issues as emotionally charged as Israel/Palestine - tend to spiral out of control in anonymous forums. But this one: so far, so good. Civilized and interesting. So why not continue as long as it stays this way?

In reply to an earlier post on May 2, 2012 9:24:43 AM PDT
[Deleted by Amazon on Jul 29, 2012 3:00:38 PM PDT]

Posted on May 2, 2012 9:15:41 AM PDT
Skaynan says:
No prob Donna. I'm with you on this. The international media anti-Israeli bias seems really unfair to me. Deleting the post.

Posted on May 2, 2012 9:13:11 AM PDT
<<All it does is bring out the Israel bashers, including those who hide behind a cloak of "impartiality" and soon will bring out their>>
these sort of threads also brings out the extremists of the other side.

"ANY criticism of Israel, is TOO much criticism of Israel" types.

Posted on May 2, 2012 8:55:04 AM PDT
[Deleted by Amazon on Jul 29, 2012 3:00:38 PM PDT]

Posted on May 2, 2012 8:20:08 AM PDT
[Deleted by the author on May 2, 2012 9:16:07 AM PDT]

In reply to an earlier post on May 2, 2012 8:18:12 AM PDT
[Deleted by Amazon on Jul 29, 2012 3:00:37 PM PDT]

Posted on May 2, 2012 8:15:41 AM PDT
Skaynan says:
Well, more to the point: Women are allowed to play music and perform.

In reply to an earlier post on May 2, 2012 8:10:20 AM PDT
[Deleted by Amazon on Jul 29, 2012 3:00:37 PM PDT]

Posted on May 2, 2012 8:06:51 AM PDT
Wyote says:
But of course the bikinis are oppressive, restrictive clothing imposed on women by closed-minded religions dominant in some parts of the West. In the truly enlightened parts, women tan topless on the beach.

Posted on May 2, 2012 8:04:58 AM PDT
Wyote says:
Been to Aqaba, and personally seen Arab Muslim women walking around with their heads exposed, getting tans on a beach wearing bikinis. Unbelievable!

Israel is politically too savvy to stop a Palestinian orchestra from having a performance. And "all its wrong-doing" is for all practical purposes an empty set, an abstract category with no concrete content.

Posted on May 2, 2012 7:43:36 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 2, 2012 7:54:04 AM PDT
Skaynan says:
Piso: impossible. Most Arab countrys just wont let the Israeli's in. The opposite, however, is not true. Barenboim and his Palestinian/Israeli orchestra had never been prevented from playing in Israel, to the best of my knowledge. People in the west tend to forget that many Arab countrys are Islamic dictatorships of the worst kind. Israel, for all it's wrong-doing, is no dictatorship. Free speech and all the other civil freedoms (that includes musical performances of any faith or nationality, and even women, yes, women! Are allowd to play instruments and perform in israel) are allowed there, as far as I'm aware.

Edit: I also heard that in Israel, women are even allowd to walk around with theyr head exposed! And not only that, even get a tan on e beach wearing a Bikini! Unbelievable!

Posted on May 2, 2012 7:36:41 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 2, 2012 7:41:11 AM PDT
Edgar Self says:
I'm trying to think of other Western conductors who have organised orchestras of young Arab and Israeli musicians and tried to bring them to oplay concerts in Arab countries.

I'm not a fan of either Barenboim's pianism or conducting (I like some chamber recordings I've heard) but think he merits credit for trying to bridge the gap with music, despite skepticism over his personal and political motives, and in the face of opoposition from both Israelis and Moslems. I've talked to the young Egyptian principal oboist in the West-East Divan, who seemed very happy with what he was doing. He has since married an American musician.

Posted on May 2, 2012 6:26:36 AM PDT
Larkenfield says:
Daniel Barenboim interview...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDJui5-zoeg

Posted on May 2, 2012 6:16:40 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 2, 2012 7:01:54 AM PDT
scarecrow says:
We are suppose to admire Barenboim for his courage? I think now it makes for good PR for his own career, for it is abundantly clear all these liberal gesturings--- doesn't really help the cause of Palestine, as all those flotillas bringing food;No
-only Washington and Europa can help their cause---it is as simple as that---and you see quite clearly no one at the moment wants this situation resolved. . . just to keep it in its current state-

if making pathways to peace at the United Nations doesn't work, nothing else will;
Yes Israel and USA has had 60 years to solve this problem of isolating Palestine, and it has; So whatever you see is exactly how the"" powers that be"" want to shape this situation there;usually through occupation and wars. . .
Eyal Weizman has great books on this from a perspective you usually will not encounter---; as the late Baruch Kimmerling, Amara Hass, the late Tanya Reinhart, Robert Fisk; try reading about the situation from another perspective,
You all might learn something-,and not simply wallow in the abundance of surface ignorance, arrogance and bias we get;

Washington and Europa needs Israel to be the "bulldog", a proxy for surveillance, to disrupt any truly revolutionary force for change there; even democracy is not acceptable-, there within the quagmire of the Middle East.
The concept here is a simple one--- to keep the Arab countries off-balance,to make them pliable so the oil keeps flowing--- and most are quite compliant,quite manageable;most (to counter what has been said herein already),most Arab countries have informal or formal peace treaties with Israel. . . .
The Assad regime in Syria now is doing Israel's work, in killing their own people, those who desire change from tyranny there, as the world saw with the liberation in Egypt, that was an incredible beginning, as Tunisia, and Libya;
Israel looks at all these "flashpoints" as a serious danger for it cannot do its job of controlling through force, or threat of war the particular set of events---; change is not desired . . .Washington as well. . .

As far as destroying Israel ,who can take that seriously? Israel has vast arrays of nuclear weapons,the most sophisticated air force in the region-with the help of the USA military behemoths- and all the Arab countries know this--So again--- it makes for nice propaganda. . . especially with the existential historical dimension of the Holocaust to utilize within the mix;

Also what is the time table for doing this,When and How? and WHO will destroy Israel, Iran?,North Korea, Iraq? Syria?, Saudi Arabia? how about Algeria or Jordan? It is ridiculous mindless chatter--

And it is a propaganda trope that is quite old now,but Alas!, it has not outlived it's usefulness for propaganda.
All the Arab countries have many more problems than this;the regimes there fear their own populations more than Israel--- and WHO will allow this assault, this devastation to happen? the USA, Europa;

Instead it makes Again-- for good timeless propaganda,good press,it keeps the warmongers going, and to keep the weapons acquisitions vouchers large--- send large amounts of armaments, F=fighter jets, multi-million dollar tanks and helicopters; given or sold,discounted) to Israel;it's GREAT business- for arms merchants, for they can supply both sides----- and it's a great tool, a buzzz' great for fundraising magnet here in the USA.

Barenboim is quite courageous, how many musicians even take a political cause to heart, most are illiterates when politics is mentioned-Danny should stick to whatever he does best, play the piano; let others who know more about Palestine in profound dimensions, let them work at this. . .

In reply to an earlier post on May 1, 2012 3:28:36 PM PDT
K. Beazley says:
Skaynan,

How can an outline of a considered opinion possibly be "argumentative", particularly as I outlined reasons why I agreed with you at times, while at others I disagreed? And even if it was, it is hardly "for no reason". You resurrect a highly contentious issue, one in which you took a highly outspoken & prejudicial position, to which a considerable number of people took exception, & you want us to believe this is somehow a "different issue"?

BTW, just how exactly did I "make it personal"? Does addressing you by name do that?

Kim.

Posted on May 1, 2012 2:53:13 PM PDT
Skaynan says:
Kim- don't be argumentive for no reason please. I didn't bother re-reading the gaza thread so I really don't remember who called who what, and I don't care much. I brought up an article (which I did not write or invent- its out there), and you can judge it in any way you see fit. I re-ask of you, please don't make it personal. I happen to agree with the articles view (frankly, I don't see how can anyone justify an act like presented there)- you happen to think I'm wrong, and enough said, ok?

In reply to an earlier post on May 1, 2012 2:47:24 PM PDT
K. Beazley says:
Skaynan,

It's ironic that you summon up the malevolent spirit of "Barenboim in Gaza", yet you seem unfamiliar with its proceedings. It was others who labelled you as a "troll", something I disputed on your behalf. But I also strongly criticized your position, which I saw as highly prejudicial & blinkered. My opinions have not changed on re-reading the thread.

So it seems clear to me that when you say "lesson learned" that, in fact, you haven't learned a thing.

Kim.

Posted on May 1, 2012 2:34:06 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 1, 2012 2:43:30 PM PDT
Skaynan says:
Dear Kim.

At least now you don't think I'm a Troll ;-)

But the issue in the OP here is different- and you must agree the whole thing is one big debackle. Perhaps you are right- but by risking "jumping to the same pool" (or a different but related "pool") I still think we can incite an interesting discussion about these issues without calling each other "trolls". So far, it seems much better then the old "Gaza" discussion. But indeed, if it's going to escalate and get ugly, this time I'm off the thread. Lesson learned.

regards,

Your good friend Skaynan.
Edit: btw, why don't you join David's "listening group"? Would love to hear your impressions about the music there.

Posted on May 1, 2012 2:26:11 PM PDT
K. Beazley says:
Skaynan,

"If you want to know what my beef with Barenboim is, Check out a thread in this forum called "Barenboim in Gaza"."

After re-acquainting myself with that thread just now I cannot for the life of me understand why you would want to jump in that pool again. Didn't you get beat up enough? Is the prejudice you & the poster Balok exhibited there so strong that you will masochistically put up with any number of "slings & arrows of outrageous fortune" to put it out there for all to see?

Besides, it also attracts a "lunatic fringe" who say things like "It is kill or be killed...That is why it is foolish for a Jew to make music with them. If Barenboim's not careful, the concertmaster might just stick him in the back with the bow of a violin."

Kim.

In reply to an earlier post on May 1, 2012 10:31:50 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 2, 2012 10:49:01 AM PDT
Edgar Self says:
Skaynan, many thanks for taking the trouble to quote the article. We both contributed to the earlier thread about Barenboim "Eyeless in Gaza". But I hadn't heard or read anything about the Qatar concerts and cancellation. That would be easier to understand if it were Bahrain.

Barenboim's violinist son Michael Barenboim is now making a career as soloist. He'll play Schoenberg's concerto with the CSO next season. Barenboim hasn't conducted CSO since he left, although he came herewith another orchestra in the Harris Theater across Michigan Avenue from Orchestra Hall (and safely underground).

In reply to an earlier post on May 1, 2012 10:25:40 AM PDT
Skaynan,

Anytime you state a politically unpopular opinion on Amazon you are going to get opposition and sometimes it will get personal and you will be viewed as evil by people who are allegedly tolerant types who have no use for a viewpoint outside the mainstream of liberal thought. I remember the thread quite well and caught a lot of grief for going against the grain but ultimately I don't care. Most of us only know each other through informal interactions here and we really can't truly judge one another's character based on this setting.

In reply to an earlier post on May 1, 2012 10:18:50 AM PDT
You have a point but Barenboim has been viewed as a divisive figure in his own country who is often seen as having more sympathies for the Palestinians than the Jews. His motives may be good and certainly those of his musicians are probably good but it is questionable whether his efforts will bear any positive fruit.

Posted on May 1, 2012 9:59:01 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 1, 2012 10:23:21 AM PDT
Skaynan says:
Piso:

"Qatari authorities decided to cancel the performance of the West-Eastern Divan Orchestra which is conducted by Daniel Barenboim a known supporter of the Palestinian cause. So why has the concert been cancelled? That depends on who you ask.

The West-Eastern Divan Orchestra was established by Barenboim and Palestinian-American Edward Said. It includes Palestinian and Israeli members and is based in Berlin.
Rare Performance
Barenboim in Gaza 'peace concert' / Reuters
Israeli maestro breaks new ground as audience of some 700 attends hour-long concert along beachfront in northern Strip
Full Story

Last year the orchestra performed with Barenboim at the annual Katara music festival in Qatar - to much acclaim. In light of the success, the orchestra was invited to take part in this year's concert, which was set to begin on Tuesday.

The event was supposed to include three concerts featuring the orchestra under Barenboim's lead as well as a debate at a local university on the subject of "music as a contribution to peace."

Said died nine years ago, his widow was among those invited to the debate. Everything was ready, thousands of tickets were sold, but just a few days ago Barenboim was surprised to hear that the Qatari authorities announced that the festival was cancelled.

The reason? "Sensitivity to the developments in the Arab world." The official announcement further stated: "We are aware of Maestro Barenboim's special talents, but the festival under his lead is cancelled."

Apparently this is only a diplomatic pretext and the reality may be that the Qatari authorities surrendered to the pressure that was put on them by the Palestinian organization for boycott on Israel.

The Arab media insisting that the reason for the cancellation is the fact that "Barenboim represents the occupation" - a strange claim in light of the fact that Barenboim has expressed his enthusiastic support for the Palestinian struggle for statehood and self determination and has even been awarded an honorary Palestinian passport.

Editorials in newspapers throughout the Arab world stated: "This isn't the time or place to entertain Israelis and a Zionist conductor. Qatari authorities are giving the Zionist maestro an opportunity to present a seemingly positive aspect of Israel."

Edit: when you mark that this post doesn't add to the discussion, can't you read one post above and see that someone actually have asked for it because he cant open the web page???
Not to mention that this post IS the OP. there are things I'll never understand.
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