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Problems with Mozart!

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Showing 51-67 of 67 posts in this discussion
Posted on Jul 2, 2012 6:56:09 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jul 2, 2012 7:02:28 PM PDT
Larkenfield says:
Inspired by MF's post, I thought it might be fun to rate more composers as being either intro- or extroverts from one's personal point of view - their dominant impression - as I believe that each composer must have some measure of both qualities in order to write effectively and still function in the world. My definition of introvert would also include someone who might find it difficult to depersonalize from his (or her) own emotions; an extrovert would somehow have a more objective outlook upon themselves or life in general. I'd be curious how others might rate their favorites. - Lark ♬

Bach - extrovert
Handel - extrovert
D Scarlatti - balanced
Corelli - introvert
Haydn - extrovert
Mozart - balanced
Beethoven - balanced
Schubert - introvert
Chopin - introvert
Liszt - extrovert
Schumann - introvert
Mendelssohn - extrovert
Rossini - extrovert
Meyerbeer - extrovert
Berlioz - introvert
Wagner - extrovert
Brahms - introvert
J Strauss 2 - extrovert
Dvorak - extrovert
Grieg - introvert
Tchaikovsky - introvert
Mussorgsky - introvert
Mahler - balanced
Bruckner - introvert
H Wolf - introvert
Verdi - extrovert
Puccini - introvert
Debussy - extrovert
Ravel - introvert
Satie - introvert
Elgar - introvert
Rachmaninoff - extrovert
Vaughn Williams - introvert
R. Strauss - extrovert
Bartok - extrovert
Ives - extrovert
Messiaen - introvert
Prokofiev - extrovert
Stravinsky - extrovert
Respighi - extrovert
Shostakovich - balanced
Webern - introvert
Schoenberg - extrovert
Sibelius - introvert
Gershwin - extrovert
Bernstein - extrovert
Copeland - extrovert
Cage - introvert
Eno - introvert
Glass - introvert

Posted on Jul 2, 2012 7:11:22 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jul 2, 2012 11:24:39 PM PDT
MF says:

Much as I am flattered by having give you some inspiration, however recreational - I disagree with your criteria. I would argue that the introvert tends to be more objective, or at least, more self aware. In so far as we accept these designations, and all along I suggested they are inherently problematic, supposedly the introvert will understand the motivations of an extrovert, but the reverse will not hold. Despite this, your list does have some cogency, though I would argue that that Bach, particularly in contrast to the more pragmatic, publicly and operatically oriented Handel, is more introverted: his works for solo instruments are among the more gloriously introspective of any I know, and that the introverted tendencies of Mahler and Shostakovich - at least with regard their compositional approaches - account for some of the more common criticisms directed at their music.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 2, 2012 7:11:42 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jul 2, 2012 7:39:16 PM PDT
John Ruggeri says:
KenOC says:

John says, "Taste in music is as varied and mysterious as taste in food."

But does anybody really like parsnips?

In hearty soups and stews parsnips have a mild cabbage flavor and are wonderful baked with other root veggies. We will discuss further in November as it is Sooooooooo Hooooooooot in Philly.


To those who love almost all of Mozart - do you find any Core Musical Value Differences:[ ADDED Between his Instrumental and Vocal Music ] or perhaps My MEDULA has not yet met my OBLONGATA ?


1- This thread is now Mucho Good IMO;
2- MF you are now an Honorary participant in the currently rather somnolent
Food at the service of music, or vice versa" THREAD

Posted on Jul 2, 2012 9:45:42 PM PDT
Jim Ginn says:
Carnola- Mozart uses clarinets in PC 22 that should help you recognize it--the theme even goes to the words "clarinets in twenty-two."

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 3, 2012 12:14:53 AM PDT
MacDoom says:
Lightly oil, then roast. Better than you'd expect by a mile!

Posted on Jul 3, 2012 12:22:55 AM PDT
KenOC says:
Trying to worm my way back into Mozart's good graces...listened to the last movement of the Jupiter, Mackerras and the Prague Chamber Orchestra. Yeah, the music's familiar, everybody knows it, everybody likes it. But could anybody write this music? It's just impossible. I'm looking for a rational explanation, but nothing comes to mind. How could this movement possibly be?

Posted on Jul 3, 2012 4:00:16 AM PDT
ken, for me it's the 1st & last movements of the 40th symphony. every time i hear them, which has been hundreds of times, i just shake my head.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 3, 2012 9:26:43 AM PDT
Mahlerian says:
Interesting list, but I'm surprised that you would describe Mahler as "balanced" in any capacity! Also, Messiaen was never about expressing his own feelings in music. In real life he was certainly introverted (as most composers are), but his music is not about his own emotions at all.

Schoenberg is the opposite. An introvert in your sense as well as in reality. For him, music was the expression of the subconscious.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 3, 2012 2:36:45 PM PDT
Your absolutely rite en. Mozart rarely is unpredictable, but when he is, the results are amazing. Try listening to symphony 25 last movement. It is arguably the best piece he wrote for pure intensity and suspense. Try it, any old version will do, just avoid Marriner conducting it like the plaque.Concerto for Bassoon and Orchestra * Symphony No. 25 * Rondo for Violin and Orchestra No. 1 Mozart to tell you the truth, does better piano concertos than symphonies, but it's an aquired taste, if you don't like the late drawn out ones, the earliest ones are cute and loveable.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 3, 2012 3:41:30 PM PDT
DavidRFoss says:
Classics Explorer says:
Your absolutely rite en. Mozart rarely is unpredictable, but when he is, the results are amazing.
I think we might be using the wrong words. Mozart was very creative and original and often did things outside the box, breaking new ground advancing the genre and all that. He did this occasionally before K. 400 or so (to great effect) but after K. 400, he was basically doing this with everything he wrote.

What he always had was an amazing level of polish, though. When Haydn did something quirky or innovative it has a tendency to stick out and its often incorporated into his humor. Its not so extreme that its awkward or mannered but the listener is much more conscious of it. But with Mozart, the transitions are always so smooth and seamless. Things can be surprising on the first couple of listens but once you know the piece you grow to think that music was always intended to be written that way. Its very easy to forget how original a piece is when everything is so smooth and polished.

Posted on Jul 3, 2012 10:37:22 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jul 3, 2012 10:43:05 PM PDT
KenOC writes, "Mozart's music is seldom surprising except in its astounding perfection."

I find the Dies Irae in Mozart's Requiem to be very surprising & overwhelming--especially if it follows on the heels of the previous movement--that is without musicians & conductor taking a substantial rest between movements, which I can't imagine is what Mozart wanted. Peter Schreier gets the transition right: Mozart: Requiem. I never get tired of listening to that movement (or any of Mozart's music for that matter).

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 3, 2012 10:48:40 PM PDT
KenOC says:
David writes: "Things can be surprising on the first couple of listens but once you know the piece you grow to think that music was always intended to be written that way. Its very easy to forget how original a piece is when everything is so smooth and polished."

Very very true! A great observation.

Posted on Jul 4, 2012 12:05:31 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jul 4, 2012 10:50:27 AM PDT
Skaynan says:
I totally disagree about Mozart being "not surprising". The famous aria of the queen in the magic flute (is nothing short of Bizarre if it wasn't so well known)? The ending of Figaro, when the most beautiful music of the whole opera is being heard ("contessa pardone") only once (!!!) and never repeats, the last movement of symphony 41 with it's crazy, unbelievable fugal counterpoint? The development section of symphony 40 last movement, in which Mozart goes really wild up to a point that he plays in almost serial fashion all all 11 different notes and the only one he does NOT play is the tonic G, the beginning of PC9 where the piano enters in the 2nd bar (!)? The "cuts" he makes in the beginning of the 40th symphony, with themes entering all in odd places on uneven counts... The list goes on and on. We are just so well versed in this music that we forget just how outright weird and "Surprising" it actually is. Also worth mentioning is all manner of very unusual instrumentation (The clarinet trio, the Gran partita, the Divertimento for string trio, the Glass harmonica etc)- all very strange and surprising by sound alone.
Also, Mozart (along with Haydn and Prokofiev) is the rare composer with a great sense of humor, which gives all sorts of surprisese all throughout his work (the monks singing a wonderful short choral in the magic flute while all they're saying is "aufvidersein")... Not to mention the obvious stuff, such as the Musical Joke, the "Disonance" quartet or the Songs with... well... "adult" content ;-)

I love Mozart!

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 4, 2012 5:25:20 AM PDT
yes!!! piano concerto #9... after the quick entrance, the piano drops out for a while until that long trill. i love how he did that!

Posted on Jul 4, 2012 8:36:03 AM PDT
Mozart is my #1 although Bach's genius is so other worldly that the best conclusion I can come to is that they both share the top spot.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 6, 2012 5:44:09 PM PDT
Roeselare says:
"The musical elements, or at least, the technical aspect of these elements, are as limiting or otherwise, as the psychological, historical and political perspectives to which we sometimes draw attention."

That's an unfounded assertion, unless you're referring to personal preferences. We can't assert anything about personal inclinations, only statistically about the human animal. To a musician, the score showing the musical elements is more important than the tangential perspectives.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 6, 2012 5:45:07 PM PDT
Roeselare says:
Thanks L. I appreciate the effort.
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Discussion in:  Classical Music forum
Participants:  25
Total posts:  67
Initial post:  Jul 1, 2012
Latest post:  Jul 6, 2012

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