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Customer Discussions > Comics forum

Jack Kirby's Fouth World Saga......Is it timeless by the standards of today's fans?


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Showing 1-25 of 65 posts in this discussion
In reply to an earlier post on Jun 13, 2012 2:26:04 AM PDT
You know what? That would be cool,like finding a lost Picasso,lost Shakespeare play!! One can only hope! As long as Mike Royer inks it! :)

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 12, 2012 11:27:36 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jun 12, 2012 11:41:37 PM PDT
Picardfan007 says:
I have to agree. The fourth world appears to be way ahead of it's time. When I look at I wonder if DC ever thought of making an animated movie or feature film of it. They would have to update "the source" so not to be compared to Star Wars, although Kirby did come first in his concept.

I wonder if there are any Kirby concepts that never made it to DC or Marvel that are still hidden or undiscovered.

Posted on Jun 11, 2012 8:45:25 AM PDT
James Davis says:
After reading a solid chunk of Fourth World Vol. 1. One thing kept striking me, how ahead of his time Kirby was. Especially after reading a lot of Silver Age Marvel. Kirby's comics feel much more modern, and accessible than the vast majority of the Marvel stuff in the same era.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 10, 2012 11:20:00 PM PDT
I happen to agree,with a lot of these artists you have to see what kind of life they have,and their past,'cause all of that comes through the pen/pencil and onto the paper.You can't fake that intensity of purpose.Barry Windsor Smith...Steve Rude...Jaime Hernandez...Jamie Hewlett...Masamune Shirow...Redline(this has characters that definitely have Kirbys' influence)...Adam Warren...IMO these guys are putting not just lines on paper,but part of their souls on paper,which makes the work go from good to GREAT. When Kirby would draw a fight sequence,you could tell he knew how to throw and had thrown a punch or two in his life! So Kirby did live through his characters!!

Posted on Jun 10, 2012 10:21:09 PM PDT
Picardfan007 says:
I have to agree. The more I see Stan Lee promoting his so called characters, the more I am aware fo the fact of the people (in authority) out there willing to steal an idea. The Bucemas, Kane, Romita and the rest all represent a bygone era when comics had actual cartooning in them.

I download the Previews Magazine from Diamond comics just to see what passes for comics today. There is a sameness and generic quality to a lot of the new artists that have taken over. There is no sense of style or imagination. They all look like illustrators doing story boards for movies. A lot of them go to video games or movies after comics or use comics as a stepping stone to something more profitable. One thing in comics is still the same. If you are not a super star artist, comics are the lowest paying commercial art.

Posted on Jun 10, 2012 7:46:51 PM PDT
They did actually issue a retraction and name Kirby as co-creator during that whole Cap movie debacle, but the damage was already done.

The older I get, the more Kirby's work seems to mean to me. Recently, the nostalgic feelings I used to have for a lot of the old Marvel comics from the 60s-70s simply isn't as strong... artists like Buscema, Kane, Romita, etc... are looking more and more like commercial artists doing a job as opposed to Kirby. Jack's work still holds up because he wasn't just doing a job, he lived through his characters.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 10, 2012 10:18:10 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jun 10, 2012 10:23:33 AM PDT
Picardfan007 says:
I remember back in 1990 in the pages of The Comics Journal about the then Captain America movie. The movie failed at the box office; however The Comics Journal showed the poster. It had stated, "from Stan Lee, Captain America!" The Kirby's or their lawyer had the poster vetoed and taken down. However the Stan Lee publicity machine still was actively promoting the movie with out a mention of Kirby. Joe Simon and Jack Kirby created Captain America. Not Stan Lee! You would think Marvel's corporate executives might have stepped in to avoid a hassle.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 10, 2012 2:47:23 AM PDT
You know,I'd have to agree about Kirby doing 90% of the work.I've been conflicted for awhile about Lees' amount of involvement with Kirby,and considering how creative Kirby was POST Marvel,at DC and PACIFIC COMICS,(also back at Marvel,with the Eternals).Shame Kirby isn't alive today!He would have totally been recognized for his works!But in a way,with The Avengers movie doing such huge business,even if Kirby and his kin weren't compensated,us Kirby fans KNOW who created/drew those characters first,way back in the early sixties. KIRBY IS KING!LONG LIVE DA KIIIIIING!! :) LOL

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 9, 2012 10:34:06 PM PDT
Picardfan007 says:
I remember the whole contract controversy was covered in The Comics Journal in the late seventies. They wanted Kirby to sign a contract that would bar him from saying he took any part in the creation of the characters. He wouldn't sign it. However, the Marvel lawyers wanted him to be forbidden to show any original artwork (which has all Kirby's story notes in the gutters of the panels). They wanted him to say that Lee was the sole creator, which was untrue.

I don't know how he made it through that period. Not only was Jack was treated unfairly; he was robbed of credit that was rightfully his. When I look at the sheer number of pages Kirby worked on; it's mind boggling. For Stan Lee to say that he was guiding Kirby or telling him what to draw or put on the page was completly false. When I look at "How to Draw Comics The Marvel Way", Lee states how the artist creates the plot, draws it and Lee puts the words in after the fact. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that the artist does most of the work. The visuals are what drive the sales and the look of the company. For Lee to say that Kirby just took his direction was another false statement.

When I look at all Kirby's post 1970 work; he wrote,edited and drew the entire comics because Lee took all his other concepts and called them his own. Why would he want to share credit when it was constantly taken away from him. If I could guess, I'd say Kirby did 90 per cent of the work while Lee just did a fast polish on the dialogue.

Posted on Jun 9, 2012 1:35:44 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jun 9, 2012 1:36:41 PM PDT
Well, Marvel will always push that point of view... Lee has been a loyal employee for decades. I'm sure Lee has some iron-bound contract with Marvel that ensures a hefty salary in exchange for Lee glad-handing and promoting for Marvel. I'm also sure Lee has went on legal record, stating that anything he did for Marvel is owned by Marvel. This is all old news by now, but at one time there was question whether or not Marvel had legal claim to the characters, particularly when the work-for-hire contracts actually came to light... the shoddy treatment of the cartoonists was actually brought to the forefront. With Lee recognized as the "creator" of the Marvel characters, it's definitely a legal point in Marvel's favor to have him on their side, so to speak. They couldn't have had Kirby under their thumbs like that.

Posted on Jun 9, 2012 9:36:42 AM PDT
Picardfan007 says:
I hope someday that the world finds out about this because Kirby is largely unrecognized in the press. It's all about Stan Lee. In my mind he just polished the dialogue and called the stories his own, just like Gene Roddenberry did to many of his writers. The way the press talks about Lee, it's as if he showed Kirby what to draw in each panel and the reverse was true.

Posted on Jun 8, 2012 11:25:38 PM PDT
That was me... and that's true. Lee made a career off of Kirby's (and Ditko's) back... but that image of Lee creating everything is so ingrained in the public's consciousness, it isn't even funny!! Even fandom (who should definitely know better) want to keep the image of Lee shepherding the artist through the stories intact. It makes me mad, particularly when you read interviews Kirby did, where he's clearly mad about the whole situation...

IMO, the proof is in the pudding... what did Kirby do before Lee? Refined superheores, created the genres of Romance, Kid Gangs, literally write the book on choreographing... what did Lee do before Kirby? Nothing, he was a kid. Ok, what did Kirby do after Lee? Fourth World, Kamandi, Demon, Eternals, Cap Victory, Silver Star, scratch at the surface of Graphic Novels, etc... what did Lee do after Kirby? Nothing but glad-hand.

Posted on Jun 8, 2012 10:42:22 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jun 8, 2012 10:45:04 PM PDT
Picardfan007 says:
I remember one poster saying Stan Lee hasn't created anything that was a huge hit since Kirby left in 1970. It's true. If you consider She-Hulk and Ms. Marvel, they were just done to protect the copyright so no other company could make them.

I read the interview years back and I can see with a little polishing of Kirby's ideas and scripts, Lee essencially took his creations out from under him. Of course Stan Lee wrote the scripts, after all the work was done by Kirby first.

Posted on Jun 8, 2012 4:01:48 PM PDT
Nicos says:
I found this interview with Kirby while looking around for other things: http://www.tcj.com/jack-kirby-interview/

Pretty eye-opening.

Posted on Jun 8, 2012 8:53:31 AM PDT
Picardfan007 says:
I remember 1976 too. The Bicentennial Minutes and the Jack Kirby Tresury Edition and his 2001 adaptation. I loved Machine Man and was hoping there would be an omnibus with those issues. I wonder if MGM has stopped that (the original owners of 2001) or Marvel decided it wasn't popular enough. I know Ditko took over the title after Kirby left and it was one of the last Marvel books that truly had the Kirby influence for me. The Marvel line is nothing but pale imatations of what Kirby made them.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 8, 2012 2:40:18 AM PDT
He was the nicest man you could meet!He was standing in front of a giant pencil drawing of Kamandi with a band of gorillas and I'm 5'4" and He was probably 5'2",and it was like talking with your favorite uncle.He asked me if I had seen his new series The Black Panther,(I had.)and I told him I was a big fan of his work,I even got my picture taken with him.Back in those days I just walked up to him,no barriers/time limit/minders no nothing.The convention was in a small hotel downtown,later that night I watched the movie 2001 shown from an old reel to reel movie projector! 1976 was a completely different time,but I remember it like yesterday! The year Mr. Kirby died,my Dad died,as did Kurt Cobain,but all three of 'em still live on! I'm glad you started this discussion 'cause Mr.Kirbys' contribution to the world CANNOT BE EMPHASIZED ENOUGH!! What Dr.Osamu Tezuka was to Manga/Anime,Jack Kirby was to American Comics! LONG LIVE DA KING!! (I just love doin' that! LOL) :)

Posted on Jun 7, 2012 7:58:04 AM PDT
Picardfan007 says:
Wow, you met the King! What was he like in person? I would have liked to have been there. 1976 was the year I bought the Kirby Captain America Treasury Edition. I would have liked to see him then.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 7, 2012 4:02:16 AM PDT
Looking at shows like Young Justice and Ben 10,and Motorcity and Tron Uprising I'd say that JACK KIRBY IS STILL DA KIIIIIIIING! DA KING<OH YEAH!!! I bought all of Kirbys' Fourth world series off the comic spin racks back in the 70's and remember bugging the old gent who worked at the liquor store to open his box of comics that would come in on Tuesday and put 'em on the spin rack 'cause i knew kirby books were in there!I'd buy 'em,not even open 'em 'cause I wanted to wait till I got home,read 'em and have my mind blown by the King's awesome works! I too just bout the Omnibus volumes 1 and 2 and love the use of paper the coloring,the packaging of Kirbys'work in this series is just great!I can't wait for the reissue of the remainimg books since i found out The Hunger Dogs will be in the last book!There'e an Anime called Redline that any Kirby fan worth his salt needs to own,or at least have a look at! While the art style is nothing like the King,the whole Anime has the stamp of Kirby all over it,there are a couple of characters who you can tell by looking at them that Kirby inspired their creation! So,whether it is Movies,TV,Anime,the Internet,Books,if it's something that is original,dynamic,and action packed,it is the spiritual offspring of Mr.Jack Kirby/Curtiss/Kirtzberg! Check outOrc Stain Volume 1 TPthe art is nothing like The King but the power and originality of Mr.Stokoes'story is reminiscient of Kirby I'm 56 yrs old,had the honor of meeting and talking to Mr.Kirby at the 1976 San Diego con ,and am a Kirby fan for life! ALL HAIL DA KING<KIRBY DAT IS!!! :)

Posted on May 29, 2012 8:09:58 PM PDT
Picardfan007 says:
I remember reading about this in the Kirby Collector. What I was shocked at was how Lee brazenly took Silver Surfer out of his hands. When Lee decided to have Surfer in his own title, he never gave Kirby the opportunity to script or draw for his own character. I can understand his desire not to have any collaborations with other Marvel characters when he returned in 1975. When he was working on the 75' version of Captain America, The Eternals Black Panther and Devil Dinosaur he did the whole "written, drawn and edited by Jack Kirby" thing. Being a major creator and the man responsible for the look and attitude of every Marvel character, I can understand why he felt the way he did. Stan and Jack did make a final Silver Surfer graphic novel in 1978. It was good for it's time and I was hoping for more. Kirby was very fortunate to get a job in animation at the time and didn't have to depend on Marvel for a check.

Posted on May 29, 2012 5:15:20 PM PDT
Think about the Warlock/Him 2-parter in FF ( don't know the actual issues off the top of my head... in the 60s )... Stan changed character motivations during his scripting!! Kirby intended the scientists to be benign, as the story was Kirby's take on Ayn Rand and Objectivism. Once Lee got the artwork and went to work, the scientists resembled the typical "evil" comic book scientists that had been done time and time again. Not to mention Lee's changes to Silver Surfer... Kirby intended him to be nothing but a construct of Galactus, an empty vessel. Lee gave him a typical comic book origin and subsequently made the character much more pedestrian. The fact that Surfer's comic was cancelled before #20 bears this out.

In reply to an earlier post on May 29, 2012 5:47:31 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 29, 2012 5:49:08 AM PDT
W.T. Keeton says:
Exacty, mark twain. And to make it even worse, a look at any of the early Marvel pages shows that the artists (especially Kirby) often wrote in the dialogue as they drew the pages, and at least in the case of FF, a full half of the dialogue that made it into the final comics was entirely Kirby. And most of the rest was just Lee rephrasing basically what Kirby wrote to give it that distinctive "Stan Lee" feel. Reading FF, you can sort of tell that the dialogue was probably written by two people as there are definite shifts in tone and style between serious plot-oriented parts and the funnier bits. My feeling is that shift is caused by Lee rewriting the funny bits, but being uninterested in (or lacking enough actual mental engagement in the story to feel comfortable in) changing the serious parts. Kirby did "funny" well in later books that he wrote, but it always had a more mature flavor than the dialogue in those early FF's. That's why I think that dialogue wasn't his original. I think Stan made it a bit more juvenile than the Kirby version would have been.

Posted on May 28, 2012 10:11:22 PM PDT
Picardfan007 says:
It's too bad you weren' t writing the history of Marvel. I agree. I have to laugh when Lee says he "wrote" the comics. Sure he did. After everything was drawn and plotted by the aritist all he did was create dialogue. Kirby and Ditko did the real work to make the comics work.

Posted on May 28, 2012 11:26:17 AM PDT
Look at it this way... Lee had been in comics for 20 years without a spec of recognition. Marvel/Timely/Atlas was universally recognized as the lowest of the low before '61. Shlockmeisters, forever jumping on trends after they had already been proven. Lee was a failed writer who LONGED to have glory and adulation heaped upon him... finally, in the 60s, he gets what he had always wanted. By that time, Kirby had revolutionized comics several times with Cap, Romance comics and the ultra-successful Kid Gang comics. His visual verve informed action scenes and his imagination had created dozens of memorable characters by this point. Lee had a position of power (editor, cousin of publisher) and was able to skew history however he wanted. No way on earth he was going to share any of those accolades with some lowly cartoonist, regardless of how much of the actual workload he was responsible for...

Posted on May 28, 2012 11:11:37 AM PDT
Picardfan007 says:
On the creation of Spider-Man:

After reading Joe Simon's "Comic Book Creators" , written with his son, I have to say Spider-Man was most definately theirs. Meaning Simon and Kirby. I was always of the school of thought that Kirby was exaggerating about Spidey's creation. That all changed when I read Simon's book. When I saw the logo with the hyphen, it was very much like the Spidey log we have seen in the comics. I was on the Kirby web site when his son Neil was saying the concept of Thor was mostly his. The reason he can attest to that, was the fact that Kirby's home library was full of books on mythology. What I can't get over is how Stan can dismiss Kirby as an equal co-creator. Kirby was responsible for all the visuals, costume designs, layouts, atmosphere. When I was seven years old I wasn't running to the news stand to read Stan Lee's spectacular writing. I was there for the visual aspect of the books, which at the time was all Kirby.

Posted on May 28, 2012 9:41:50 AM PDT
At least Mignola readily acknowledges Kirby's influence...

Yes, the whole Spidey debacle has been debated over and over, but it's obvious to me that, under Stan's definition, Simon/Kirby created Spidey. Kirby (with Simon's blessing ) brought the unused "Spiderman" concept to Lee once the superhero swing was going. Lee didn't use it, but later came up with his own Spider Man character... or a basic sketch that definitely borrowed from the Simon/Kirby concept (orphaned teenager living with elderly aunt/uncle who gains spider powers).

Now, as I said, according to Lee, whoever coins the basic concept is the "creator". I don't necessarily believe this, but Lee has repeated this over and over, attempting to grab as much credit as he could. Unfortunately, this backfires on him when pertaining to Spidey. Personally, I think Lee and Ditko deserve co-creator credit, no matter how much Lee hems and haws about it.
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Initial post:  Apr 26, 2012
Latest post:  Jun 13, 2012

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