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Opinions on the DC Relaunch?


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Posted on Jun 30, 2011 1:23:07 PM PDT
Joe R. says:
@S. Kelly For now I believe that they are all supposed to be on-going. But there are rumors coming out saying that DC is only giving each series about 6 issues. Some are saying that gives DC room to change back around January if things go badly.

D. Newsrama, did a 10 myths about the relaunch, interesting read, well kind of, I think DC PR and DC editors creators don't talk much.
http://www.newsarama.com/comics/ten-dcnu-myths-busted-110629-1.html

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 30, 2011 5:01:52 PM PDT
Leon Evelake says:
I hope thats true. It seems like such a waste to restart everything. Maybe this will all go down like heros reborn.

Posted on Jun 30, 2011 5:25:49 PM PDT
Joe R. says:
Leon
DC is just trying to stay viable, that's why this whole thing is a throw ideas and see what sticks act. Notice how the lesser known characters seem to be changed a lot compared to the mainstays. They won't change their icons for fear of no recognition, but c-d list characters have the freedom to be wholly changed.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 30, 2011 6:56:16 PM PDT
Leon Evelake says:
The problem is how much they pull this. I mean just a few years ago they reworked their history with 52, and have spent the last couple of years making the dc universe much more like the silver age stuff. Problem is that while many of the writers doing so grew up with the silver age stuff there is also a large portion of readers who have read nothing but the post 80s reboot. So its been kind of annoying for recent readers to see how much needless retconning has been going on. Either way with further changes especially wide scale ones they are risking alienating even more readers.
You mentioned the main characters being less changed. Well, all we really know about is the costumes and ages. And that they are doing this to try to appeal to a younger generation. This could be very bad, take superman I dont want a younger more unsure of himself superman. Smallville was bad enough, I like the mythic, adult character that doesn't spend time whining about how he wants to be normal. Now we dont know if thats how this will work out but considering recent trends and reinterpretations of other characters, its a valid concern.

Posted on Jun 30, 2011 8:01:57 PM PDT
Joe R. says:
Yeah I hear what you're saying. I can't say I agree with what they're doing. I'm confused how batman is supped to be younger now, while Nightwing is all grown up. They really messd withthat whole dynamic. I liked that Tim Drake was adopted by Bruce. But now that seems all gone. Plus, confusing too. DC thinks wrong to confuse new readers with continuity, but okay to confuse old readers with nonsensical changes that actually take away dynamics.

They are trying to do what Marvel does. By having separate characters claim the older heroes namesakes. I'm thinking about the new teen titans book, Tim Drake is Robin, but he just seems to be calling himself that, with no real connect to the bat family.

I also think DC is willingly risking their log time fans and supporters. I think DC thinks that once this current generation of reader is gone, that's it. But then I wonder why Marvel isn't really pulling the same thing. How many fans would be pissed if Marvel decided to relaunch Captain America, as some Iraq war experiment, never served in WWII, never paired up with Bucky, never worked with the Avengers, and they toss out the suspended animation thing? That's why I think Marvel has the ultimate line to test the waters with these kind of ideas.

DC should have just done a few titles. Something along the lines of the Marvel ultimate books . But they want to really pull that trigger. Let's hope they don't shoot themselves in the foot and scare us all off.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 30, 2011 8:46:52 PM PDT
Leon Evelake says:
Marvel and dc both have strengths and weaknesses. I used to think that marvel was a little more willing to let their characters grow, be replaced and have a bit more consequence to their actions. But with joe quesadas run of rampant changes, characters being used as political author avatars (not to mention advertisements for things quesada likes) , their recent tendency to flanderize or completely derail characters for no real reason and the fact that writers are forced to make things match the movies, I think marvels really screwed itself up. Not that its all bad, but over all. I thought dcs strengths were having these iconic mythic characters and a stronger respect for who those characters ( especially compared to marvels recent years) and their histories, but the recent endless retconns kind of kill that as well. But at least with marvel while they may make massive mistakes with characters and even border on ruining some, they tend to update things in small chunks and most stories stay in continuity. With this dc thing it really bothers me that all the good stories i have picked up over the years no longer matter. In example Green lantern for the first time since i have ever read comics is interesting, its not something i want to start over with.

Posted on Jun 30, 2011 9:42:38 PM PDT
Joe R. says:
Leon
I guess the big 2 have screwed themselves up, both with varying ways. I hated the way Quesada did the BND thing, haven't really read Marvel since. I feel like if that's how things are going to be why be invested in any story. It's like Watching a TV show, and middle of the season they decide to recast and re plot the entire thing. That and Marvel's $4 price tag, helps me say no more often than not. Any more I buy more things that are interesting from new creators. I just accept things change and you're better off just having an era or storyline you liked and moving on. Let them court new readers all they want. Relaunching, rebooting it's going to happen but tossing out all the continuity that should count, just kinda makes me give up wanting to continue reading.

Not sure why Marvel does make the comics reflect the movies, which I despise. Wasn't until after the spider-man movie came otu that the comics had to throw in organic web shooters. Take what happened lately, Bucky dead, again, and Steve in back as Cap, course what happens in 3 weeks. Hmm coincidence? I think not. So the universe the way it's been is good enough to start a movie franchise. Yet having those new readers delve into the marvel universe by having them read other issues to see why the comics are different is wrong.

Yeah GL did get better since Johns came on it. I guess wish he'd do that more often, rather then making some have this 60s 70s slant towards the campy, cheesiness. I was getting into the Morrison Batman and Robin series. But now who knows how that is going to be after September.

I will say when this was announced, I did wonder why I should bother even buying DC since after September none of it will matter. Oh, wait, some of it does, not all, but some. Which is just strange. Not sure how that works. But whatever. That's why I'm more interested in the lesser known characters then the icons. At least that way, not knowing much, I can't be too bothered by the changes. It'd be ironic if this was the tread with the relaunch.

I've guess come to terms with it happening, and if they lose me I guess that's what DC wants.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 30, 2011 9:56:29 PM PDT
Leon Evelake says:
That makes sense. Its kind true but sad that the only way to be into the marvel and dc titles (without being frustrated by all the bs) is to just find the stories that work. Its annoying because its getting harder to find ones that are not connected to several upcoming events and that have an actual endings. At least there are many really good stories coming other companies in the US, Japan, and Korea. As well as the sort of non main universe stories of dc and marvel.

"Oh, wait, some of it does, not all, but some."
I must of missed that, but maybe it means they will still use things like batman year one. Though I doubt it.
A bigger question for me (and forgive me if its been mentioned) is are they doing this in a way that over-writes the current dc universe or will the current dcu be set as an alternate universe kind of like they did with the original golden age stuff?

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 1, 2011 7:33:34 AM PDT
WolfPup says:
Interesting, though of COURSE this isn't the same reality as the comics took place in previously.

I liked the idea of the JSA existing, and like the original Green Lantern being kind of the "elder statesman" of the DCU.

*sigh* I don't know about all this :-/

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 1, 2011 8:27:41 AM PDT
Joe R. says:
Last I heard. Batgirl's The Killing Joke is still supposed to be canon. I guess they're going to change how Barbara wanted to stayed paralyzed. The Batman and GL stories are still supposed to matter. Which is strange that Bruce decides to just stop Batman Inc. and now Dick goes back to being Nightwing. Yet, Action Comics is supposed to be retelling of Superman's early years, while Superman title is about him grown up, I think. It's all very confusing.

The reason I say just having stories that you really like, is because you know they will change them. Brubaker's Cap run come to mind, The first 30-40 issues of that run are great. But then, sure enough, Rogers has to come back. I got used to Bucky as Cap, and once you get used to him, well time to change again. It's the same with Thor, by JMS, I really enjoyed that, until Marvel had to mess with it to make all the world events matter there too. ( which is another discussion all it's own. You can't tell creators they have full reign and they won't have to participant in the summer event only to go back on that promise. Or in Brubaker's case, he originally wasn't supposed to write Cap Rebirth, but he ended up having to.)

The big 2 always have to interrupt runs with this year summer event crossover. I really wish they'd just make the summer event it's own title and not make it crossover. Take the month of July as the Fear Itself/Flashpoint event month, and when everything changes, yet again, afterwards. Have the regular monthlies titles take a hiatus for that one month, read what happens in the world, and in August when everything restarts. We have the aftermath from the events. rather then all this, you only have to buy 30 titles a month to get the whole story thing. Make the event be just a single month thing, the only issues that come out are that title. That would be something, I think.

It'd lower their costs, and if you're a Marvel or DC fan, you'd pick up that singular series. Both would gain a better idea of how many actual readers they have. Just an idea. But hey that's what comics should be all about anyway.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 1, 2011 8:31:47 AM PDT
WolfPup says:
I like your idea a LOT for how to do these summer events. They're super frustrating, even for me...someone who's pretty bought in to superheros and DC/Marvel, and I STILL can't really do them.

I liked 52, and I liked Identity Crisis okay, and both I guess have ramifications elsewhere, but are self contained, which seems like the way to do it. Also means they function as books, and aren't this weird disjointed stuff we get.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 1, 2011 5:51:32 PM PDT
Leon Evelake says:
" though of COURSE this isn't the same reality as the comics took place in previously"
The reason i asked was because the modern stuff was sort of over wrote on the silver age more than some of the other timelines. So i was wondering if there would be some odd event that lead to the current dcu being changed into the new one.

Posted on Jul 1, 2011 6:15:40 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jul 1, 2011 6:18:02 PM PDT
Joe R. says:
Leon
Supposedly it's Flashpoint, which also kind of leaves DC and out if things go badly. There's a article over at CBR, a letter or what have you about a lot varying concerns,
http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=33078 It somewhat explains what they're doing and yet still leaves questions too. They say it's a relaunch, but at the same time the are rebooting characters too. It's just another PR thing, take from ti what you will.

Wolfpup,
Thanks for the compliment on the summer events. I just think this idea sounds and acts like an actual event rather then just a money grab. I think it may help creators actually push themselves. Anymore I just buy the main event book at the most. Most of the time the tie-ins are just filler, hell sometimes you get some of the same exact scenes.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 2, 2011 2:33:21 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jul 2, 2011 2:33:42 PM PDT
Leon Evelake says:
Thanks that helped.

I found this part interesting.
" This is not a reboot, it's a launch. This is a historic initiative for DC Entertainment and the DC Comics characters - and a first in the company's publishing history. "
Interesting because its pure bs.

Posted on Jul 2, 2011 4:05:05 PM PDT
Joe R. says:
Yeah,
Some characters are getting a complete reboot, while others are getting a relaunch. Two months and we find out how this all works out.

Posted on Jul 6, 2011 4:07:48 AM PDT
M. Cook says:
Firstly I haven't read all the posts here, so forgive me if I'm being redundant.

DC seems to be taking the stance that this relaunch is intended to be "new reader friendly" in that, because they're all "# 1's" , it'll serve as a "great jumping on point for new readers or readers who are put off by decades worth of continuity" (did I sound editorial enough?) . My problem with that is: if this new restart point is brought about by FLASHPOINT, and therefore is tied into FLASHPOINT, then is it really all that "friendly" to new readers? Further more, if somewhere down the track there is a point where the DC continuity gets "fixed again" , how is that geared toward the new reader? Wasn't the (failed) ALL STAR "line" supposed to deliver this "jumping on point" ? Same with the "EARTH ONE" line?

Now take in the fact that there are 52 titles to contend with. Is it just me, or are there a few titles/concepts that seem pre-destined for failure? (I won't name any, I'm sure you can decide which)

Fair enough if there were a few that were mini-series (between 6 and 12 issues in length). But no, these are all on-goings.

Perhaps it's intended as a 25th Anniversary Celebration of the original CRISIS and subsequent relaunch of the DC-verse back then?

I will of course give DC a chance to prove itself, but I can't help but have a bad taste in my mouth about this relaunch. I mean, really, when will they understand that what makes for good comics is great talent being allowed to create great comics -- MINUS the editorial interference! (Hopefully I'll be proved wrong. For the record, I AM looking forward to Morrison's take on ACTION COMICS!)

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 6, 2011 11:53:55 AM PDT
Joe R. says:
M. Cook,

Flashpoint does lead into this, but it's supposed to be a new beginning. Meaning, I think, that you won't have to know what took place in Flashpoint or before to jump in. The ALL STAR was intended to, by DC, to be a let's do whatever series, but changed into being continuity books. The new Earth One line's are separate series/titles. I also think they were meant as movie pitches.

As for all the 52 titles. You're right in that I feel they are just seeing what sticks. I've read that all the series are set for at least 6 issues. Then I'm sure they will see what's what and decide what stays and goes from there. I think DC is really trying to reach a wide audience, and they will produce what readers want.

The bad taste you're getting that this is being called a relaunch, not a reboot. DC has said some stories and continuity from the books will remain, thus a relaunch, while other titles are complete reboots. It's confusing and DC isn't really being straight forward with their answers.

I think DC is having this branch off from Flashpoint in case it falls flat. DC will have an way out, and a way to turn it all back, through another event.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 6, 2011 4:08:15 PM PDT
M. Cook says:
Joe R.

I'm a DC guy more than a Marvel guy. I really do think that Dan DiDio has done a good job of steering the DC brand -- for the most part.

I think that they just haven't managed to co-ordinate all their big events (IDENTITY CRISIS thru to FLASHPOINT) in the best way/s possible. Take FINAL CRISIS, for example. (I love FC -- I am in the minority of thinking that Morrison conceived a truly epic story. It's biggest problem - in my opinion - was that DC marketed it as "the day evil won" -- and yet they dropped the ball in that it really didn't (post-FC) change much. I can't help but wonder if they should've played it out more (say 6 months) of having Darkseid lording over the DCU before having him get his a$$ handed to him. Instead, FC finished, they had their NEW YEARS EVIL books, which didn't really tie-in to FC, and then it was back to the staus quo. But I digress. Back to the relaunch...)

I've re-read this last years FLASH title (that leads into FLASHPOINT) and it makes mention of the time anomaly in the early 21st Century that is an aberration or some such. Now, is the pre-FLASHPOINT DC/52-verse the aberration? Is it FLASHPOINT? Or will it be the relaunch-verse? I guess only time will tell...

I too agree that it's confusing and the fact that DC isn't saying too much does not help one bit. Sure, I like a bit of mystery and surprises, but surely they must realise that they need to clarify their stance on exactly what they are trying to achieve with this relaunch, hopefully sooner than later. We'll see.

Posted on Jul 6, 2011 6:40:34 PM PDT
Joe R. says:
M.,
I do like that Morrison really likes comics and superheroes and what they can be. I did have to think about FC which is not a bad thing. And once you realize what's going on and what he was trying to accomplish, it's really stands out.

I never read a lot of the tie-ins. I have a rant/suggestion on this thread or the "Rants and Raves II" thread about what I think event books should be.

That being said, I read somewhere that Flashpoint was originally supposed to be 7 issues. Then the relaunch idea came to fruition and now it's 5, leading into the relaunch. I think they should have just made August Flashpoint month, done that single event book and then the restart.

As for which universe the relaunch takes place in. I think it's the main. But looking over the title families that have been introduced, I think it would be a novel idea to have all these books in separate universes, with only those characters being the sole heroes/villains existing. That way if you like supernatural type stories, the only events that take place with be related to that genre. And when events or crossovers happen they will be confined to only those books in that universe/family. Then when something in the Superman books happens I only have to pick up those 4 books. rather then needing or wanting to pick up Batman to find out how it effects him or Aquaman or who ever.

Posted on Jul 6, 2011 6:58:31 PM PDT
Esgaldil says:
The nice thing about modern comic publishing is that I can just wait a year and see if there are any collections worth my time after that...

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 6, 2011 7:36:45 PM PDT
M. Cook says:
Joe R.
I will check out your "Rants and Raves II" thread; thanks for the heads up!

I like your idea about each book occurring in seperate (self-contained) universes. I've always thought that, as an example, Superman works best when he is the sole superhero of his world. It kinda still works if he's the first one and then others follow after him. But when you make it that he's not the FIRST and he exists in a world full of superheroes, then what makes him unique and special is really watered down. Plus, when they put out umpteen books featuring him, and it all starts to become like a soap opera, that just makes it worse.

Further to your idea of "seperate universes" , I tend to imagine such universes as "bubbles" , so that when Superman's "bubble" comes into contact with that of, say, Batman, that "overlap" forms a "cross-over effect" so that, at the end of the "cross-over" , their seperate universes are still as such, and yet each character, in varying degrees, retain recollections of the "cross-over". Therefore, the "need" to maintain the "continuity" of a unified universe (such as the DC-verse as it now stands) is less dependent on editorial edicts and affords the creative teams the ability to decide for themselves how they wish to tell their stories.

Posted on Jul 7, 2011 1:19:57 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jul 7, 2011 2:30:26 AM PDT
This is beyond killing the goose that laid the golden eggs. It's like they killed the goose, lied about it, retconned a new goose to takes it place, then backtracked, rebooted the goose's story and relaunched it in a different medium in a different language. DC, one more time, is making their universe(s) totally inaccessible. Comics are yet another American industry is self-defeating. See my review of Infinite Crisis and Civil War.
Morrison is a great writer but erratic. Animal Man, Doom Patrol, All Star Superman, Batman Arkham Asylum, WE3 are great comics. His work on on for Marvel on X-Men and Marvel Boy was vastly inferior. JLA was great or near great writing crippled by appalling art. The Invisibles is one of the most frustrating comics of all time. Brilliant and maddening. But hey it paved the way for the Matrix. Couldn't finish Sea Guy, The Filth, his X-Men, 7 Soldiers of Victory. But I love the mad brilliant big-balled bastard. He knows magic and madness and mystery. His interviews are hilarious when he's not bashing Miller and Moore for no reason.

Posted on Jul 7, 2011 8:27:19 AM PDT
I've been giving it a go and trying to reboot the DC Universe myself this summer: http://infinitereboot.blogspot.com/

What I've learned so far is it's harder than it looks. Trying to juggle 52 different titles in a way that keeps characters familiar to long time readers while accessible to new ones is pretty tricky. It'll be interesting to see what comes out of the event and how long any changes made actually last.

Posted on Jul 7, 2011 7:30:24 PM PDT
S. Kelly says:
Since I've never read much DC before, I was thinking this would be a great time to jump on board...now I'm not so sure. I haven't read many optimistic appraisals of the upcoming reboot from any of the DC experts in the crowd here, and they are sure to know more than me, but what do you all think? Will they just go back to the old story lines if this totally fails?...or will they just plod onwards? I'd hate to jump in, get into the new story lines, and then have the whole thing get cancelled. From what I've read above, DC has done a lot of this rebooting in one form or another in the past...and it hasn't always been received well, what did they do about it?

Posted on Jul 7, 2011 8:38:50 PM PDT
Esgaldil says:
I'll say it again - there is no advantage to buying new comics the month they are published. Give it a year, and listen to what people are saying.
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