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shock collars?

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In reply to an earlier post on Sep 23, 2008 10:44:06 AM PDT
Zoey says:
I had an experience this past Sunday while I was at my dog's training class. There are a number of pit bulls in the class and I feel good that these owners are being responsible and want their dogs well trained. Some of them wear shock collars. A few have severe issues and seem to be overcoming them well. We were all standing in a line waiting to start the agility course for the first time when the pit bull in front of me went off the deep end. In a split second he went from a sit/stay facing the front direction to airborne and right into my dog's throat. My Deerhound had done nothing to distract or agitate this dog, in fact he was having a good time untying my shoes. Before I even had time to absorb what was going on and step in to intervene, this dog was stretched out wriggling and making strange noises. I thought he was having a seizure as I scooped up my rather heavy dog to protect him. (It's a Mom thing, you wouldn't understand). Just as suddenly the dog stopped and ran between the owners' legs trembling. The trainer ran over and helped me check out my dog's injuries (which were none but a gooey coat) and then asked me to put Haggis back on a sit/stay. He took the leash of the offending dog but under no circumstances would that dog go anywhere near mine. Then the trainer explained what had happened. He had the controller for the pit bull's shock collar and was waiting for the dog to freak out (so we were the bait for all of this) and then shocked to dog for a full 5 seconds. The pit bull thought Haggis had hurt him and was instantly afraid of him and tried to run away from mine when we went back into line. Apparently the pit bull will remember this (I hope) and not go near my dog again).
The reason behind this tome is to state that I will NEVER, EVER!!!!

In reply to an earlier post on Sep 23, 2008 10:59:25 AM PDT
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In reply to an earlier post on Sep 23, 2008 11:21:20 AM PDT
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In reply to an earlier post on Sep 23, 2008 5:02:31 PM PDT
Eve Demian says:
You don't even want to *know* what I think about this; there are not enough capital letters in the *world*, nor enough exclamation points, to suffice to tell you how incorrect every aspect of what you have described is - - and I know how offended most of you get by that!

Lady, if you're continuing with that trainer, don't scratch your head over why your dog isn't training properly, and don't call him "dumb" again; let me clear up the mystery for you: your trainer is *incompetent*.

However, if you *should* insist on continuing with this disgrace of a dog trainer, do be sure to get her/him to sign a contract stipulating that s/he will pay for any damage that comes to your animal in the course of one of her/his "surprises". And you might suggest to the owner of the pit bull the same pertaining to when her dog becomes *more* aggressive, and begins turning it on *humans*, as well. Will your trainer absorb the responsibility for *that*? Will you be getting a refund of your money for training as this impacts poorly on *your* dog's responses?

In reply to an earlier post on Sep 23, 2008 5:25:24 PM PDT
Eve Demian says:
Just read the more complete version of your post, and can verify that this is not the way in which the collar is to be used, and your "trainer" was misusing the collar and abusing the dog, if the time ("a full five seconds") that you state is correct.

I have no intention of giving away free services, but I can inform you, without doing so, that there is nothing about this scenario that has *trained* the dog - - as he was not even so much as given a directive! This did not *train* the dog, it was nothing more than a show to impress the humans in the class; it did nothing to impress the dog. It hurt the dog, it frightened the dog (*not* what you want, to create a fearful pitbull), it did not train the dog. There is nothing about what you have described that attaches to any *training* association for that dog.

So, were you *impressed*? Because all that the show that that "trainer" put on should have impressed upon anyone was how *unskilled* s/he is. How little technique s/he has at her/his disposal. How little s/he knows about even basic, essential behavior. And how much at the expense of the dogs in the class, and ultimately *you* all (humans) this person is willing to go to make it seem as if you are getting your money's worth out of that class, when in fact, you are not - - because this trainer cannot deliver the goods. S/he has now unquestionably proven that s/he lacks the most basic skills to do so.

In reply to an earlier post on Sep 23, 2008 5:39:11 PM PDT
Eve Demian says:
As I received this post four times, I will take it as a sign, from a higher authority, that I should say one more thing to you: In regard to your unedited version - - why will you be "scratching (your) head"? Why will you *not* go through the most rudimentary process of locating someone competent who can advise you properly? Your issues with this dog are really very simple.

In reply to an earlier post on Sep 26, 2008 11:13:26 AM PDT
Deena, I had a little dog that barked at everything and anything. I used a tin can with a tight fitting lid and put several small rocks in it. When the barking started I would give the can a couple of really hard shakes; this obviously produced a very loud sound that startled my dog and she stopped barking. I also would add a stern "stop" immediately after she stopped barking. This worked for me. When she had a relaps, all I had to do is reach for the rockcan (no shaking was needed) and she would stop barking immediately.
Now, my dog hated that noise so it worked for me. It may be worth a try; but since yours seems to bark due to anxiety it may not work.

In reply to an earlier post on Sep 26, 2008 2:08:54 PM PDT
C. Cleveland says:
You will kill this dog if you employ a shock collar.

In reply to an earlier post on Sep 30, 2008 11:21:23 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Sep 30, 2008 11:49:37 PM PDT
Your trainer has some odd notions about how to use an e-collar, or for that matter, how to conduct a class. :0) I have trained both Chesapeake Bay retrievers and American Foxhounds (for recall) using a Tri-tronics collar, and never have I "burned" one, as I would consider that abusive. Nor would this collar be appropriate for Haggis. It is simply a signal to the dog, not a control device.

As for Haltis and Gentle Leaders, I wish that we could collect every one of them and put them in the trash. They are useless as they don't work with the natural inclination of the dog.

The answer for you and Haggis is a Sprenger collar (also known as a prong collar.) I know they look like medieval torture devices, but they do not hurt. A septagenarian trainer of Fox Terriers made me at least consider them when she yanked one closed on her own arm, and it left only a slight pinkness on her fragile paper-thin skin. I have demonstrated this technique on myself to others, and I can tell you, it doesn't hurt.

What it does do is mimic the feel of the mother's teeth on the puppy's throat (a natural corrective measure) and they pause, and you can get their attention. Once you have established a relationship with Haggis using a Sprenger collar, you can go to working him in a simple "draw" chain collar. (The name "choke chain" is not only off-putting but inaccurate.) You simply correct the dog by applying pressure on the neck and releasing. It's all in the wrist.

Never never use sustained pressure. Remember pressure/release for every correction. And lots and lots of praise when he does the right thing. So many folks forget to use their voices, which finally are one of our most effective training tools. Please, for your sake and Haggis' try a prong collar. You won't be sorry.

P.S. I've been involved with purebred dogs for 40 years. I raise and train notoriously "stubborn" breeds.... I prefer to think of them as "independent minded" ... and as I type I have five Show Champions asleep around my feet. I've earned my stripes in the dog world, my advice is based on what has worked for me. I am happy to correspond privately with you (or anyone) who has questions or needs help, and I am pleased to do so for free, LOL.

Good luck and kind regards,

In reply to an earlier post on Sep 30, 2008 11:46:36 PM PDT

I've read most of the posts in this thread (okay, some I skimmed) so if I've missed something, please forgive me. I would really suggest trying some more crate training with him. If you have a wire crate you might try an airline type, or vice-versa, if you have an airline type, you might try a wire one. Put the fellow in his crate to eat. Put him in his crate at night next to your bed. Put him in his crate when you have people over. He will eventually come to regard the crate as his space, his den, his bed. All of my dogs but one sleep in crates at night, and when I say "Cookies in bed," they all rush to their respective place, and are tucked in with a handful of treats. Your guy has generalized anxiety and this will help. Make sure that you have the right size crate, you don't want one that is too large, as the dog will feel more secure in a smaller space.

The rocks in a can trick that someone else suggested is an excellent one, for unwanted barking when you are home. Be sure that you have developed a voice command for telling him to be quiet. Our dogs understand both "Hush" and "Quiet." Spray bottles can work too, but with some personalities, it just makes them bark more. When he stops barking, praise him thoroughly.

You might try a little Bach's Rescue Remedy. You can find it in health food stores. Put a drop or two in his mouth or a bit more in his water. This has been helpful for some dogs, and if it doesn't work, it has no deleterious effects.

When you leave try putting him in his crate with a couple of treats. Say "See you later" and go. Don't belabor the separation. When you come back, do a few things in the house. Have a coffee. Check your messages. Even if he is barking like mad, ignore him. Then go and let the little guy out. Greet him like so "Hi, buddy, how are you?" or the like. Nothing more. Just don't make a big deal out of it. Take him outside and play with him. Remember that this relationship is on your terms, not his. So far he is really trying to set the agenda. Dogs do their darndest to train us, so don't let him get away with anything you don't want to continue to do.

If you decide to go with a medication route, I believe that the only anti-anxiety meds actually approved for dogs is Amitriptyline , a garden variety anti-depressant that has been around for years. It can be quite effective, but it takes weeks to reach a therapeutic level. I have used both Prozac and Zoloft in hard-core rescue cases, with good results, but note that dogs have a much more rapid metabolism than people, it takes a large dosage and can be quite expensive.

You don't say where you are in Ohio, but I am in the Dayton area. If you would like me to help you (or if you'd like to borrow a crate) please don't hesitate to get in touch. Don't give up on the crate training, it just takes a little time and lots of positive reinforcement. Good luck, and let me know if I can help.


In reply to an earlier post on Oct 1, 2008 7:39:11 AM PDT
MM says:
Please explain how it's possible to recommend "positive reinforcement" simultaneously with prong collars, corrections, and penny shake cans. Please explain how the jerk-and-praise method can be recommended by you, a self-proclaimed "positive trainer".
Thank God the name "choke chain" is off-putting. With your "experience" in the dog world, you're surely aware that humans will use terrible, unnecessary punishments in the name of training : right now, there are many thousands of electric shock collars, choke chains, and prong collars being used inappropriately and abusively. Labeling the pain of the corrections that you give as being "natural" is not a justification for the constant punishment and lackluster rewards (praise?) that the dog will experience in being "trained" by these harsh, antiquated methods.
An obedience ring ribbon does not justify the abuse of an ear pinch to teach the retrieve. A pulling dog who's inattentive to his handler on his walks needs NILIF and a smart trainer who can come up with a non-abusive solution. Stop blaming the dogs for your lack of knowledge.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 1, 2008 2:23:17 PM PDT
Oh my goodness, Misa, you have an attitude problem. None of the methods I use or have used is cruel or painful. My dogs are well-adjusted, happy and accomplished. Can you say the same? Out of curiousity, I "googled" your name plus dogs (Are you the erotic photographer, too, lol) and I found that you mostly spend your time on Amazon chat boards and have accomplished nothing with dogs. I suppose you also belong to PeTA, sigh.

The prong collar does not hurt, the draw collar does not hurt, and when used properly, the shock collar does not hurt. I know this because I have tried the prong collar on my own arm (hard) and I have been accidentally shocked while using the Tri-tronics collar. Have you tried any of these methods or are you simply responding out of some kind of sensitive, emotional, knee-jerk ignorance?

The positive reinforcement comes by setting the dog up to succeed, rather than setting him up to fail. If you think praise is a "lackluster" reward, you really don't know dogs at all. Lavish praise is in fact the BEST reward, and a cookie can be a nice incentive. I know many people swear by clicker training, but the same can be achieved by just using one's voice.

Haltis are not appropriate for a situation in which the dog is much stronger than the handler, and Zoey's injuries and the Haggis' injuries are proof of that. (Certainly they were much more painful than any training technique) And of course, if Haggis had been in the path of the car, this "wrong choice" of a training tool might well have ended in his death.

Dogs crave structure. They want you to be the pack leader, and so many owners just don't step up to the plate on this. The methods I've advocated are not cruel, and they are effective. Both of these women are beside themselves with behavioral issues they can't get a handle on. I offered advice based on four decades of experience, having titled my first dog, a Doberman, when I was six years old.

Not only have you not achieved a single notable thing in the dog training world, Misa, you also don't read well. I came on here to offer help and I deeply resent your twisting the advice I gave.

For ZOEY and DEENA.... if you'd like more help or to learn more, like I said, I'm happy to help you.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 3, 2008 5:07:11 PM PDT
H. McClure says:
Wow. Way to be a psycho stalker.

For the record, I'm a CG artist by profession, and I wholeheartedly disagree with you about prong collars. Just because you call yourself an expert, it doesn't mean your methods are unquestionably correct. See Haggis's trainer for a perfect example.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 3, 2008 5:58:54 PM PDT
I don't think "googling' someone qualifies as a being a "psycho stalker," anymore than calling someone names on a public forum makes them a sophomoric twit. Have you ever used a prong collar? No. Do you even know how to use one? No. Do you train dogs everyday? No. Do you have a right to disagree? Sure. Do you have a leg to stand on? No. Good luck with your dogs. You'll need it.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 4, 2008 9:06:59 AM PDT
H. McClure says:
Oh, well I stand corrected. Now I see that you're a positively lovely and helpful human being. (I feel like I'd better explicitly mention that was sarcastic, given your obvious comprehension level.) And you "know" all this information about my dog experiences, how, exactly? Oh wait, you don't. Thanks for playing, though.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 4, 2008 4:58:38 PM PDT
Jon Crosbie says:
Ah, it is nice to see an Amazon discussion post keep the tone so mature. Oh well. If you look up some of my posts with regard to the HD vs BluRay DVD fight you'll find I'm just as guilty of childish insults as anyone.

This advice is for asked for some different suggestions and I think you got some! Now, what to do with all these suggestions? This advice is much more focused on dealing with people than it is dealing with dogs, so take it for what it's worth.

I'd take all of these suggestions to someone you can actually meet who's a respected dog trainer in the area. If the guy blows off your suggestions and acts arrogant about it, I'd stop going to him. If he (or she) listens and then gives you reasonable explinations as to why he (or she) wouldn't do it, that'd probably be the dog trainer I'd listen to.

In all honesty, Mike and Larkin Vonalt actually seem to know what they're talking about. I think the most unhumane thing to do with your dog is giving him back to a rescue because he kept barking. If it takes a shock collar, then it takes a shock collar. Certainly trying other stuff that's more humane in everybody else's eyes is probably a good idea but if it's not working, it's not working. All the guilt trips in the world won't change that.

On a more sophomoric, argumentative note...

It's a *shame* that *Eve* is being such a *bad* *representative* and CONDESCENDING JERK regarding her *profession*. It *looks* alot *better* when you *shut up* and let your *work* do the *talking* for you.

If you really want people to listen to you, throw out a quick suggestion that'll give you some credibility. Essentially saying "I'm phenomenal at what I do but in order to prove it to you I'm going to need some money" just makes you look bad.

All I got. Deena, good luck with the pooch. Good on you for not just getting rid of him and actually attempting to do the right thing. God bless you and I really do hope it works out. If you do have to resort to something drastic like a shock collar, I won't judge you.

Not that my not-judging is worth much of anything :)

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 5, 2008 9:15:15 PM PDT
Zoey says:
Thank You Larkin for your offer of help. I think we are on the bright road of mighty success!!! I took Haggis for another lesson today and the instructor told me he's ready to qualify in his class! Hopefully this will happen next Sunday! He's passed his search lessons where the owner hides in (of all things, a police firing range with buildings and all sorts of moving distractions. With his training ON the prong collar, he's been forced to focus on my directions and he found me in less than 2 minutes. That was the best timing for the group! He also passed his sit/stay for 4 minutes while I walked away from him to play with another dog. He did marvelously well with a down/stay as well. With all the training with the collar ON him (both rings are always clipped together so he doesn't get accidentally choked), Haggis now walks on perfect heel without a leash for over 30 minutes at a time. We've done very well with the agility course and now he takes it on his own - on command. I have talked with handlers for the Deerhounds in competitive showing and it is expected and considered standard behavior to jump up on the handler/owner. My dear Haggy doesn't do that anymore. Hence, no further injuries. He doesn't bolt off after a small animal and stays on heel when we see deer close up and doesn't make a move or a sound unless I release him with "Okay, go be a dog" .
Haggy has learned to trust me, wants me to be his leader and shows me that on a daily basis. We've bonded very closely during the training and he actually enjoys himself now.
To MM: prong collars can be used as 'positive' reinforcement when you know how to use them properly, and the owner needs to be trained before training can begin with the dog. If you decide to hang your dog up on his prong collar for not following a command, then it's abuse. If you use it as a correction aide a quick and NOT violent tug or jerk, as you put it, helps them understand that what they are doing is not correct. Unfortunately, dogs don't speak English but are happy to watch you making noises at them. And since we don't speak dog, we have to resort to other methods of getting a desired response from our furry friend. Go watch a female with her very young puppies. They do all their corrections at the neck line. We have become just an extension of that mom dog. It comes out to be like an almost stern tap on the shoulder (for us) for the dog. At least Haggis learned well using this method. If I was hurting him - punishing him with painful stimuli such as the prong collar, he would never walk with his head up or his tail a bright waving flag bouncing along behind him. He would in fact fear me and/or hate me.
Yes, MM, humans really do horrible things to animals as well as people. We're not discussing that. We're discussing animals that we love and want to be by us out in the community, dogs that people aren't afraid of and that do socially acceptable acts. That requires training. If the prongs were so were so bad as to be an instrument of torture, they would be outlawed. They are not. They are gaining in popularity. I hated putting the prong collar on Haggis in the beginning but I couldn't afford the hospital expenses (for both of us) nor the pain inflicted when air head went butterfly hunting without telling me. When you begin to fear your own dog and you know you have to do something NOW, you don't start researching different theories or trendy methods. You get a damn good trainer, spend the long money and learn from him/her. The trainer doesn't train my dog, he tells me how I need to act to train Haggis. Like I just said, Haggis will stay right on heel and not leave my side while his favorite prey munch the grass. I couldn't have done that kind of training on a leather or nylon collar. This breed and other giant breeds sort of think that training is a pain in the butt and not to be taken seriously. For me to reach the level with my dog that show ring handlers have not experienced, hey.....I'm one proud individual!! And my dog helped me to get there. I still hate E collars - even though I was ready to go out and purchase one at one point, and I do believe they cause pain as I've seen it used. But it taught a pitbull that he can't attack Haggis anymore. I carry a an electric device with me whenever I'm out, especially with the dogs, to send an electric charge through any other dog that might try to attack us (and they've tried) or person with less than healthy motives. The police told me that if I continue to hold an active charge on a downed animal or person, after about 5-6 seconds, I'll have rendered them confused and ataxic as well, for several minutes - long enough for me to high-tail-it outta there! That is punishment, but there is reward in that too. The reward is enabling me and my pets to seek safer territory.
Manufacturer's say that those stupid halties and such are easy to train a dog with, and then site an example of a horse (of all things). Big deal. A horse moves the direction his head is pointed towards. A third grader could tell you that. Dogs are not horses and they don't train the same way. Dogs scan the area they are traveling in and they need the freedom to put their nose to the ground. That's all innate. They don't work, unless yo have a brain dead dog, or a blind one.
If I've offended anyone, it was not my intention and I offer apologies in advance. All I know is: this 60 year old is going "kiting" around the block anymore and our walks are fun filled. Oh yes, would someone be kind enough to tell me what a ring ribbon is? Never heard of the term............. Go hug your pups!

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 5, 2008 9:18:22 PM PDT
Zoey says:
I hope that reply was meant to be an exaggeration. No, I saw one used and I could never get over the guilt of using one. Haggy's flakey enough without that.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 5, 2008 9:24:57 PM PDT
Zoey says:
Eve, Are you referring to Haggis and I? I surly hope not.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 7, 2008 2:21:38 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Oct 7, 2008 2:24:43 PM PDT
Hi Deena,
I feel your pain. Actually, I used to feel your pain but I've fixed the problem.

I have two Chihuahuas; one is 8 lbs and one is 4 lbs. I live in a condo, so every time anyone in the building moves, they go off like a gang of burglars is breaking down the door. Anyway, I just wanted to let you know that you seem to be on the right track according to the posts that I read from you.

First, you should not let him have the run of the house, especially when you're not home. Little dogs are scared of everything that is bigger than them - which is everything. They need a place to feel safe. You should get him a large crate with blankets and pillows in it to hide and sleep under while you're gone. Put some of his toys in there and maybe a tee-shirt that you've worn a few times. That will make him less confused and more assured that you are coming back.

Second, make sure he is getting enough exercise. People don't think about the fact that their dogs sleep all day long while they are gone. We just come home and expect them to be calm while we're awake and go to sleep when we sleep. Look at it from his point of view, he sleeps all day, lays around all evening and then is expected to sleep all night. Give him and outlet for his nervous energy. I walk mine around the block and then let them run and chase each other on the tennis court in my complex. They sleep like babies afterwards.

And, finally, shock collars can work wonders on small dogs, when used correctly. Never leave it on him when you're not home; if it malfunctions, he could break his own neck trying to get it off. Consider one like this... or one of these... which are made for small dogs. Put it on the lowest setting and increase it only if necessary because he doesn't feel it at all or after he decides that barking is worth the minor annoyance. And don't coddle him when it shocks him. Remember that it doesn't so much shock them as it scares them. And it doesn't hurt his neck, it only hurts his feelings. I did this with mine, even the 4 lb. little guy, and now all I have to do is show them the collars and they quiet down instantly.

Little dogs are a joy if they are exercised properly and controlled firmly but lovingly. They are a giant pain in the butt if they are anxious, spoiled little balls of nerves with no outlet other than barking.

Good luck with your pup!

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 14, 2008 12:49:38 AM PDT
Sherry Boyer says:
I am certain that you are at your wit's end with your chihuahua. It sounds like his barking has become self reinforcing at this point. It also sounds like you have tried just about everything. There is a lot of emotion out there around the idea of a "shock" collar, and a lot of mis-information. I don't listen to people who say shock collars are evil, abusive, etc... and have never felt one of these electronic collars. How can they know? There was one post about how effective it was to use one, yet other people talk about how mean it would be. I would totally support your use of such a collar. The point is not to harm your dog, it is to interrupt the barking pattern that he has developed. Were you to feel what one feels like on a low enough level to affect a change in behavior, you would be so surprised- it doesn't hurt, and in fact is surprisingly mild. I am a firm believer in interrupting the patterns to lower the stress that the dog's barking habit is creating for itself and the household it lives in. Go for it! We like the TriTronics Bark Limiter (I am not a distributor of these products)- you can set the level yourself, and then when you turn it off, a light goes off for the number of times the collar stimmed the dog that day. If it goes off a lot, then your level was too low and thus ineffective. If the light goes off 2 or 3 times, then the level is right. Good luck!

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 14, 2008 6:26:13 AM PDT
MM says:
It is irresponsible to recommend such a punishing device when experts agree that the use of a shock collar is detrimental to a dog.

"Almost without exception, physical punishment, including the use of prong collars and electric shock collars, alpha rolls, and dominance downs can make an already aggressive dog worse. Owners should be discouraged from using these techniques....."

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 19, 2008 7:25:58 PM PDT
k9mom says:
Hi Deena: First - don't refer to the collar as a "shock collar". It's an e-collar which gives (if used correctly) mild electric stimulation to distract the dog and eventually train the dog to do what you want or don't want the dog to do. If it's being stimulated and it doesn't know what it's doing wrong it's going to become confused. In short, get your dog and yourself to an experienced trainer (no group lessons) and have a chat with a trainer who can evaluate YOUR dog and YOUR problem. Everyone I know refers to the e-collars as "shock collars" and truthfully, those that do use that term, really have very little understanding of how they work or how to train with them. Get a good trainer. You'd be surprised how many dogs are products of their environments and not the start of the problem itself. Much luck with your problem. I have a siberian husky/GSD mix, a Golden Retriever and a GSD and the mix did have a barking problem initially - we worked it out with a combination of training and understanding why he was barking - seperation anxiety and how you handle it can have a lot to do with why a dog may continue to bark non stop. I hope you are able to find an answer to your problem but ultimately, it starts with you and it should include a qualified trainer - not one in a chain pet store that mass produces dog training.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 20, 2008 6:52:22 PM PDT
Zoey says:
K-9 Mom, Please don't refer to a 'shock collar (which it is-it delivers an electric shock) as a mild electric stimulation to distract a dog. If you want to distract a dog from one behavior to another, use the collar and leash. I spoke earlier in this thread about my only experience with an "E collar" and I never want to see that again. It was used on an aggressive dog that decide to shred my dog at his training lesson. That dog wasn't distracted - I think he got his brain fried! Even a 2-3 second 'medium' shock scared that dog to pieces and is probably still confused as to what happened that day. When I need to redirect my SDH, a quick jerk on the leash (the way I was taught) is enough to bring him around to the task at hand. He keeps a prong collar on and will probably have it on till he's a much older dog, and he understands the collar and what selective deafness will bring him. He knows better now. After multiple injuries, even involving fractures, I can finally walk my dog as a pleasure, not a requirement.
Shock collars are nothing more than tasers hooked into the collar, designed to punish, not correct. They scare the hell out of an animal not capable of rationalization. God help the poor beast that had to be subjected to these 'corrective devices' when the owner/handler is in a really bad mood and everything the dog does besides breathing, is an irritant to him/her and the dog gets zapped up and down the street. If you feel you must have one of these mid-evil torture devices, and you are not capable of getting results with a capable trainer, then you have the wrong dog.
I will admit that I had once given thought about using one myself because my Deerhound is dominant to a nauseating level when he is off lead in a meadow with my other two dogs - Borzoi & Greyhound. He will literally knock them tail over teacups and 'herd' them to areas that they can't escape from. I thought I might try it to put an instant end to this foolish behavior but then I decided to use common sense when these issues come up. Either he is off lead, or the other two dogs are off lead and the SDH stays on lead. If the dogs can't work it out themselves, then I'll do it for them. I rank these collars right up there by the Iron Maiden. It took some really demented individual to think up that one.
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Initial post:  Aug 24, 2008
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