Safety Month BOTMKT Amazon Fashion Learn more Discover it $5 Albums The best from Bose just got wireless Fire TV Stick Sun Care Patriotic Picks STEM Amazon Cash Back Offer AnnedroidsS3 AnnedroidsS3 AnnedroidsS3  Amazon Echo  Echo Dot  Amazon Tap  Echo Dot  Amazon Tap  Amazon Echo Starting at $49.99 All-New Kindle Oasis Best Camping & Hiking Gear in Outdoors
Customer Discussions > Economics forum

just what IS money ? describe its characteristics. -- AND what do you think should be used for money ??


Sort: Oldest first | Newest first
Showing 1-25 of 85 posts in this discussion
Initial post: Dec 2, 2012 10:39:10 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 3, 2012 7:58:49 AM PST
Describe money so we can recognise it.
What are the characteristics and propertys of money.

Tell what you propose to use for money.
Prove your money satisfies the description and properties that money should have.

two days now and none of the experts has dared put their ideas about money here in simple plain form
and then tell why they are right

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 4, 2012 3:20:09 PM PST
Just noticed you post. I think you know my basic positions on what money is and should be, but here quickly:

- Legal tender - the gov. should specify, print, own and spend money into circulation, and be limited by boards, congress and the states under the 10th in doing so to prevent inflation/deflation...the originally stated intention for establishing the federal reserve, a responsiblility which they have totally abrogated.

- fiat paper - as uncounterfeitable as technology allows and easily handled

- Must be used for payment of debts and esp. taxes, but of course there is barter, as with gold, etc.

-Loans - the private banks would be better regulated (Amen), and would apply to the federal bank for principle amounts for loans...not 'generate' their own as now.
When the loan was paid up, the principle would return to the federal gov. for use in normal gov. business and help keep taxes low for all. The banks would have to live on interest and fees alone.....that's it so far.

Posted on Dec 6, 2012 10:31:10 AM PST
freedom4all says:
"Money is nothing but a medium of exchange and it completely fulfills its function when the exchange of goods and services is carried on more easily with its help than would be possible to means of barter."
--- Mises

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 6, 2012 10:36:23 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 6, 2012 10:36:41 AM PST
They are wrong period. That is the total libertarian veiwpoint only. it doesn't take into account the existance of monetarily sovereign countries which need taxes to carry on normal operations, like "provide for the common defense". Libertarians are already divided and therefore easy to conquer, being without the possibility of mutual aid (of all sorts). It is a totally untennable, artificial and impossible state of being.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 6, 2012 2:16:43 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 6, 2012 2:30:08 PM PST
Dear Tom,

The Horse asks:

1. What is money, generally ?
2. Name money's characteristics, in some detail ?
3. What substance and or magic should be used for money ?

You, Tom, have answered, nicely:

1. Money is legal tender owners of debt must accept in payment of debt denominated in money.

2. The significant characteristic of money is that it circulates as sellers and creditors receive it--and then spend it (in their new roles as buyers or owners) to other sellers and creditors.

..... Such circulation colors the use of money, leaving everyone perplexed on how money begins to circulate and how it stops circulating, if ever.

3. Money can be metal coins or measured weights or paper banknotes or bank balances due to an owner.
===============

So I say you answered his questions nicely.

More can always be said about money. Libraries are full of anecdotes and numbers about money and its uses.

A fundamental issue remains unanswered: why does Horse ask? What is it he really wants to know about other people's thoughts on the topic of money?

In my opinion Horse has no idea of what he wants to know or why he asks the questions.

..... He shoots from the hip at anyone who suggests anything on the topic; but he never changes his stand: his view is simply that gold is money, period.

He has a point. Gold is the gold standard for money.

But, modern nations do not have enough gold for money. So they resort to legal tender.

Horse knows this -- but will not accept it. So he thinks gold is money. And he knows modern money is not gold.

Modern money is legal tender; and it is also money that is bought and sold on foreign exchange markets.

Perhaps, Horse is a money trader in such markets. If so, I am sure we all wish him luck.

Some of us who are not money traders, are money cranks. We want money system reform to improve the lot of children and working people.

..... We money cranks see poor children and under-paid workers as victims of white-collar exploiters, often called bankers, lawyers and law-makers.

Such aforementioned exploiters need to removed from positions of power where they can steal our money by legal, if foul, means.

Horse never created this problem. He does not even see a problem. He is as dumb as a stick of wood. Conversing with him is like talking to a ventriloquist's dummy, where the ventriloquist happens to be dead.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 6, 2012 2:45:10 PM PST
freedom4all,

You quote Mises as follows:

"Money is nothing but a medium of exchange and it completely fulfills its function when the exchange of goods and services is carried on more easily with its help than would be possible TO means of barter."

The last "TO" ahead of "means" is a typographical error. Change it to "BY".

Mises is FOS. Money's function or purpose is determined by the people who use it. I use it to achieve all the good results that may be possible.

In WW II money achieved the impossible. It helped to save civilization. Today it must save the planet and the human race. It needs my help. It needs Horse to take a vacation.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 6, 2012 2:54:30 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 6, 2012 2:56:31 PM PST
jg is FOS

money is a more efficient way to barter using a special good with specific properties rather than a wide mixture of goods and services. money should be in demand for itself not because it was declared the fiat currency by some corrupt govt. and it should not be arbitrary like seashells as used once in some remote islands nor something like tulips or land.

money needs the following properties:
stores wealth
easily transported
does not rot or erode or lose value with time
can not be easily counterfeited
has industrial uses other than as money itself
easy to subdivide

Gold is the best money, silver is good too.

Paper is the worst thing to use for 'money' because it has no value unless it can be exchanged for something valuable like gold or silver, and the govt can remove the ability to exchange it for gold or silver at will , and the govt can print huge quantities of it on demand with no constraints.

paper (or the modern equivalent = computer bits) permits the use of a central bank that can manipulate the economy and the money to benefit the bankers and politicians. with gold no fed shenanigans screwing the citizens.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 6, 2012 4:10:57 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 6, 2012 4:12:54 PM PST
H; < money should be in demand for itself not because it was declared the fiat currency by some corrupt govt. > True all gov. is corrupt to some degree; we can't fix that easily if at all, you and i. Money should NOT be in demand for it's intrinsic, self-value, or it is just another single commodity. Money should represent all commodities and labor of industry, even if you're only breaking rocks. It is the work ethic that must be honored first, then commodities... which should not of themselves ever be construed as "money" in any system I would partake of. Also, making money basically worthless outside ons'e country, unless there are treaties to whit, makes it harder for "expatriates" to rob the home country of value, unless paying proper fees/taxes for doing so...which is NOT now, and much of the reason the country is on the ropes, besides the fed funny money machine in full gear with QE3 going on forever as has been devised so that our system will fail soon, and in so many other ways. There is simply no great place to hide....eg. Uruguay has little defenses and would make an excellent "hit" target for some jealous group of misfits, etc., unlike our national guard at home as one example.

< arbirtrary > Yep, yes it should, and worthless, uncounterfeitable, portable in pocket, etc. NOT like gold, which is totally impractical...but pretty and should be legal for ownership...and one is smart to own a little as I often quip.

< has industrial uses other than as money itself > not really...or it's other than money ! Money should be specific in it's use and purpose, and otherwise worthless. ...unless you want to buy something within country or pay taxes..pretty easy really; why do you complicate things so ? ...and again, I won't accept much of your gold as any kind of payment, esp. if the country goes down after jan. 1...I'll take barter first.

< Paper is the worst thing to use for 'money' because it has no value unless it can be exchanged for something valuable like gold or silver > Now you really blew it. You CAN use it to buy gold and silver, as it's been declared by the gov. at being "money"... and as I keep saying, not the reverse in my case, etal., as that is barter of commodities and I don't want your gold in any great quantity.

< the govt can print huge quantities of it on demand with no constraints. > Yes, they can now, and are, but this is NOT my system they use...and they are just plain BAD people as Franklin quipped about. The regulations and agencies both public and private for such do not exist at present for my system, and TPTB will make sure that they never do for obvious reasons. Your gold system is your dream to keep until you hit someone like me who refuses you a gallon of milk after jan. 1, because all you offer is useless to me gold.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 6, 2012 6:34:50 PM PST
money is a SPECIAL commodity
that has the properties noted

if people did not want money for its own value then it woudl not be useful as money

any commodity can be used as money
some work better than others
without a standard like gold that everyone wants
you are back to bartering each and every one
with whoever you can find to trade with
inefficient and wasteful to do it that way
when gold/silver works so much better

work ethic is worthless except to the extent it was used to create wealth

you can work hard and achieve nothing
that is useless to other people and will not feed you as nobody will exchange goods for a lot of effort that went nowhere

gold is good worldwide
always has been
always will be

no country has any claim on the value you created
you are free to move yourself and your wealthy anywhere anytime
unless yo uprefer a fascist commy statist govt controlling all

gold is practical
and a number of countries do use it
those that do not have worthless paper that inflation robs of value daily

money shoudl not be specific in purpose
that defeats the value of it and why it is perfect for money
without value the govt can counterfeit it easily

you can buy gold with our paper money
but you get less and elss gold every day

buy gold and HOLD VALUE AS A STORE OF WEALTH
hold paper and yo ulose value every day
paper is bad for citizens and good for the banks/fed and politicians

your system is a great theory
never worked anywhere ever
and never will work anywhere ever

gold always works
always has
always will

paper is worthless unless you can trade it for a FIXED AMOUNT OF GOLD THAT THE GOVT HAS IN STORAGE. the gold our dollars get is less and less every day. and fort knox is empty.

plenty of people will sell me anything i want if i have gold
your gallon of milk will rot in a week
and you wont get anything for it
want to trust some guy who says he will give you a tomato next summer for your milk today ?
gold avoids that problem and all problems with paper

you are a socialist keynesian if you like paper

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 6, 2012 8:04:44 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 6, 2012 8:32:09 PM PST
Horse says to Tom Lamar:

....."[Y]our system is a great theory that never worked anywhere ever
and never will work anywhere ever."

Gelles says to Horse:

..... At least we have a sentence--not a grunt. Since 1971, when Nixon took the dollar off gold, all currencies in the real world, like all of Asia, the Americas, Europe, Australia-New Zealand, and Africa, are made up of debt-based fiat legal tender, including paper notes and bank-accounts that hold fiat money.

The central banks of these countries hold gold in their vaults as reserve wealth they can sell for other fiat currencies -- but none will pay gold in exchange for their own currency. Gold is not their money, nor is there a standard percentage of their wealth that they keep in gold.

Gold is a good store of value, often better than currency. But the success of fiat money is of astronomical importance and is evident whoever you look. If you want wealth, weapons, winning, you use fiat money. Lamars' production backed money is a good idea. All nations use it as best they can.

Any nation using gold as most of its money is an unusual one with lots of gold. Google or Wikipedia can probably name any. I looked and found note.

These real nations, huge, medium and small, since 1971 have built cities and industries of immense wealth.

So what is Horse talking about? He is referring to horse manure.

The real choice we have concerns debt-based money and debt-free money. Keynesian thought, IMO, suggests that both be used in roughly equal proportion. But experiments with mostly one or the other have been successful.

Interest rates, tariff rates and tax rates all have effects. A very high minimum standard of living is the desire of all democratic nations. Plutocracies desire very high maximum standards of living and minimum standards as low as their poor will stand. I want democracy. Horse may want that too. How he can achieve same is for him to explain. A gold standard may make it impossible or impractical.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 6, 2012 8:22:55 PM PST
H; < money is a SPECIAL commodity
that has the properties noted
if people did not want money for its own value then it woudl not be useful as money >

Wrong; the gov. specifies that which is money period. Legal tender is law.

< without a standard like gold that everyone wants
you are back to bartering . >

Are you listening ? LEGAL TENDER is all that matters...unless you want to go to jail for trying to pay taxes with horse feathers !...(or gold)

< work ethic is worthless except to the extent it was used to create wealth >

It's good to know how you feel about most Americans; We will strike at your plant soon of course. The work ethic/Labor is what built western civilization, along with innovation...rentier logic be damned.

< you can work hard and achieve nothing
that is useless to other people and will not feed you as nobody will exchange goods for a lot of effort that went nowhere > ...Are you serious ? Tell your car mechanic that and see how long it sits there untouched.

< gold is good worldwide
always has been
always will be > yes, why don't you leave NOW !..after being punitively taxed of course for your unAmericanism.

< no country has any claim on the value you created
you are free to move yourself and your wealthy anywhere anytime
unless yo uprefer a fascist commy statist govt controlling all >

Not if I ran the country. I do tell my reps that from time to time; we'll see.

< money shoudl not be specific in purpose
that defeats the value of it and why it is perfect for money
without value the govt can counterfeit it easily >

OH ! now you want to pay taxes in horse feathers ?...I know you'll hoarde your gold like they always do ! My plan prevents counterfeiting and overprinting or did you miss that too?

< buy gold and HOLD VALUE AS A STORE OF WEALTH > To a degree; but it can be called in, and in bad times it is no where as acceptable as useful goods; forget it.

< your system is a great theory
never worked anywhere ever
and never will work anywhere ever >

My system is simply built on the work of others ie, Franklin and Lincoln, who were not privileged to have modernity to help them make theirs function well.

< paper is worthless unless you can trade it for a FIXED AMOUNT OF GOLD >

Now you run into the old Spooner problem; that face value is never the commodity value. Fiat paper can be made stable, regardless of markets, wars, or wishes.

< you are a socialist keynesian if you like paper > Not at all. I am a realist and hate Keynes the useless printer; socialism, commmunism, fascism and captialism do NOT work; realism does, as my system portrays for the best mankind has to offer itself.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 6, 2012 8:40:09 PM PST
that is your political view

reality says people ignore the govt when they destroy their so called 'money' with inflation

economists and practical people totally disagree with your statist viewpoint

put separate points in separate posts and i will show you why you are FOS

not reading massive tomes on screen and replying to you

Posted on Dec 7, 2012 12:05:04 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 7, 2012 12:13:17 AM PST
This discussion by Horse, the hidden customer whose words are hidden from view on my order, says to start it:

..... just what IS money? describe its color. how does it smell, etc.

Tom Lamar and I explain what modern money is. Then Horse objects to "tomes" he said we posted. He knows a tome is 800 pages long. Our post have been far less than a single printed page. And he (the Horse) being full of it, says we are FOS (Fully on Subject). Of course we are. So we say thanks and hope he leaves these premises permanently. He is a bore, a boor, a cipher--who has never paid his dues with a meaningful line of text. But, You say (who is not even in this discussion,) we deserve him because we have encouraged him to keep his oar in the water. Well, you're right. We've asked to ignore his posts and then clicked them on like the fool who loves to make the same mistake over and over again. Fool I am to expect from Horse anything but horse manure. He is stuffed with it. Given the chance he throws it your way and laughs out loud at your mistake of exposing what was hidden for good reason. Un-hide the Horse and duck. His supply of h.s. is infinite. His delight in playing in it is the same. He is the Horse who rode in on too -- and we ate it again for supper. Will we never learn to leave un-read the hidden ravings of that lunatic?

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 7, 2012 4:15:28 AM PST
As a libertarian, you are as I say, totally divided and easy to conquer, like the indians and palestineans, and supremely so as an "individual" with your so called non-legal tender "money". Governments simply must exist for all sorts of mutualism for society to exist at all, with an enforced monetary system to keep those like yourself from forcing others like me to take whatever you feel is "money", lest we all perish in small fiefdoms of isolationism as you intend for mankind.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 7, 2012 4:19:46 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 7, 2012 4:22:47 AM PST
Were we all in politics, there would be the usual harangueing, but hopefully some of Franklin's compromise to save the country's currency when it all came to a vote.

ps - am now in "discussion" with a Dr. Rich from Heritage (or should I say Heresy) about Constitutionality on FB who so far will not address sovereign currency nor the QE problem !

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 7, 2012 9:05:35 AM PST
you are so confused

i am a tea party member
who leans to libertarian more than neocon wars

we will not be conquered by the liek of you or gelzie
our money is better because people want gold
they dont want fiat paper no matter what you say

we dont have to force anyone to use our money
because they already want it

you have to use coercion to get peopel to take paper
because they knwo it is worthless

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 7, 2012 9:58:33 AM PST
The frn IS on the way out, but that's a gov. matter. It MUST be used or you go to jail for trying to pass other "stuff" off as money. You CAN barter gold, while it's still legal. We may be a mess, but we are still a country of law, not men (like you)

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 7, 2012 10:51:26 AM PST
we can legally barter anything at any time

you only have to use their krapp fiat worthless paper to pay your taxes

we are a country of law and still some freedom that you and keynes want to do away with

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 7, 2012 11:46:45 AM PST
..and what country might that be ?

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 7, 2012 1:33:51 PM PST
you would be wanting to destroy the usa from your posts
or were you going to start your own country
if so tell us what island you bought

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 7, 2012 2:22:29 PM PST
I would run for congress and fight to restore the Constitution. America represents the finest political examples the world has ever known, and I for one will not see it die from indifference or malfeasance. What's your problem?

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 7, 2012 3:35:47 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 7, 2012 3:36:40 PM PST
you have to win

good luck with that

people want freebies
not theoretical 'money' rhetoric

i have no problem
just opportunities
never let a good crisis go to waste
they are going to ruin the economy
so be prepared to get rich off it liek the 1% are doing
dont be a schmuck and go down with the ship like the sheeple

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 7, 2012 3:47:48 PM PST
My monetary plan would be like "free money" compared to what "we the (little) people" have now, or did you miss that ? I have no intention in going down with any ship of state...I suppose you'll just expatriate ? it's getting harder to get out of the country intact as I read from Prector's rag.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 10, 2012 3:25:52 AM PST
R. says:
"if people did not want money for its own value then it woudl not be useful as money"

This is not exactly true. People don't want money because of its inherent value. They want it because of what it represents. For example, if someone goes to work and gets a paycheck from their employer, that money represents the hours of labor they performed. In effect, that individual is trading their hours of labor when they purchase something else.

The problem with gold is that it is subject to fluctuations in supply and demand outside of any possible use as a currency. This means that the value of gold compared to anything else will also be subject to fluctuation. As such, it seems unlikely that gold will be a perfect monetary system.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 10, 2012 8:45:46 AM PST
half right

without its own value
the govt can rapidly make it useless by printing more of it
and then you cant trade it for anything

gold is stable unless compared to paper which inflates constantly

gold always has value

gold has worked for all history worldwide
if you have gold you can trade fro other stuff

if you have paper
there always comes a time when you use it to start your fireplace cause it has no value or use
‹ Previous 1 2 3 4 Next ›
[Add comment]
Add your own message to the discussion
To insert a product link use the format: [[ASIN:ASIN product-title]] (What's this?)
Prompts for sign-in
 


Recent discussions in the Economics forum (923 discussions)

  Discussion Replies Latest Post
Common sense and Russian-American Partnerships 1 8 days ago
"Free Market" Extortion 3 9 days ago
How has the Middle Class "cut off its own legs"? 8 12 days ago
Mises: The Meaning of Laissez Faire 6 13 days ago
The Big Story -- or -- the bigger picture 0 15 days ago
The "STRUCTURE OF PRODUCTION" describes What we need to SUPPLY us all on Earth -- and a MONEY (with which to buy it) 0 15 days ago
MONEY defined to meet our needs is MISSING: QE creates enough money for it to run downhill. Taxation of income, gifts, death and wealth is a futile attempt to have water run uphill. 1 16 days ago
More and More is always LESS than Too Much Money ! ! 23 16 days ago
German `labour treasury certificates' 14 18 days ago
Tragic day for the World. 2 18 days ago
The Case Against Legal Tender Laws 4 19 days ago
Glass-Steagall Act 20 20 days ago
 

This discussion

Discussion in:  Economics forum
Participants:  6
Total posts:  85
Initial post:  Dec 2, 2012
Latest post:  Feb 6, 2013

New! Receive e-mail when new posts are made.
Tracked by 1 customer

Search Customer Discussions