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Gay and Christian: Why not?


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Showing 226-250 of 254 posts in this discussion
In reply to an earlier post on Jun 4, 2010 7:04:14 PM PDT
A. R. King says:
You're welcome and I'm glad I could clear that up. Also, there is more I could say on that topic.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 4, 2010 7:43:07 PM PDT
Well said...and I mean that in the most Christian way I can say it.

Posted on Jun 4, 2010 7:48:55 PM PDT
A. R. King says:
The second main reason for Jesus coming to earth after his plan of redemption by the cross, was to experience being human and being tempted to sin, so he could say to all humanity at the judgment that he knows what it is like for us to be sinners and live in hardship and joy on a human level. Therefore, no human can say to GOD, "you don't know what it is like to suffer temptation and to be a human being."

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 5, 2010 12:55:20 PM PDT
Robin R. says:
groomRN: So much of what we hear from straight people who are making an effort to be open-minded does seem to come from a place where the basic assumption is that gay=bad. Otherwise, why would an effort be necessary?

While I try to give them a little space (to be truthful, the idea of homosexuality to a straight person can reasonably be said to feel unnatural - for them), I agree with you that this deep-seated and perhaps subconscious attitude can be hurtful, even when people don't understand that's where their comments are coming from.

The only thing wrong with being gay is how some people treat you when they find out. And, as Taylor Adams, the protagonist in my novel Thinking Straight, says in one of his prayers to Jesus:
"I know you love me for who I am. I know God doesn't make mistakes, and if I'm gay it's because that's what he wanted. I think the challenge is to get everyone else to see that. This is their test, not mine. They need to learn that you love me for who I am, and they need to understand that if they're going to love me, they need to follow your example."

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 5, 2010 6:11:02 PM PDT
groomRN says:
Robin, that's why I enjoyed your books so much; you really understand and accept gay people for who we are, without condescension or judgment. The Christian world in this country has great difficulty accepting anyone who falls outside their narrow mindset, and I think it's one of it's greatest shortcomings. I'm far from perfect myself, and don't claim to be anything special, but at least being gay has taught me to be accepting and forgiving and compassionate. The only things I can't accept are ignorance and bigotry, because there is no excuse for either. Anyone who claims to be a Christian has a responsibility to themselves and God to keep ignorance and bigotry out of their lives
You're one of a precious few who demonstrates love and acceptance and wisdom in a truly Christian way, and I'm proud to know you, even a little bit!

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 6, 2010 2:05:40 PM PDT
Robin R. says:
gromRN -- I wouldn't sell yourself so short, if I were you. Gay people have been forced into the margins, and instead of ending up resentful and bitter, it seems to me you've found that being on the edge of society has given you a keener vision than you would have if you were in the middle of society's in-crowds, its cliques, its golden children. And you seem to have made a conscious decision to be loving and forgiving. That takes a special person, in my book!

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 6, 2010 5:35:22 PM PDT
Naomi Kramer says:
"Anyone who claims to be a Christian has a responsibility to themselves and God to keep ignorance and bigotry out of their lives"

*CHEER!*

Yup, I thoroughly agree (in case you couldn't tell). :-D

All I've managed to work out is that 'rules' fit human nature far better than 'belief', 'ethics' and 'logic'. If I ever work out how to fix that, I'll start a new religion *snicker*

Posted on Jul 8, 2010 11:52:09 AM PDT
A. R. King says:
I think Christians have gotten the concepts of what a Sodomite, a Homosexual and a Eunuch all mixed up. In ancient times there was no confusion on the matter. A sodomite is not a homosexual (in ancient times they did not even have this term), a homosexual is what is described in the scriptures as a "natural eunuch." Here's the evidence of scripture:

Matthew 19:3-12 gives us God's view of heterosexual marriage and natural exceptions to heterosexual marriage as Jesus intended His followers to understand them.

Jesus said some eunuchs are born
that way, from their mother's womb.

It is interesting to note that Jesus does not state or imply that born eunuchs exit the womb with genital deformities. Instead, Jesus makes a distinction between born eunuchs and eunuchs who have been physically castrated, whether by illness or by men.

Jesus makes a further distinction between born eunuchs and eunuchs who make a personal choice to voluntarily abstain from sexual relationships for the kingdom of heaven's sake.

The distinctions below, so carefully articulated by Jesus, imply that born eunuchs are not required to abstain from sexual relationships such as a committed, same sex marriage. Some Christians believe that born eunuchs were often homosexual eunuchs. Abstinence from sexual relationships particularly describes the third class of eunuchs and possibly the second class but not the first class, whom Jesus referred to as born eunuchs.

This distinction becomes important when confronting Complementarian assertions that limit marriage to the Adam and Eve marriage paradigm. God does not assert that limitation in scripture.

Instead, Jesus carefully exempts eunuchs from the Adam and Eve marriage paradigm. Eunuchs, according to Jesus, cannot receive His saying about Adam and Eve style marriage.

"He that is able to receive it," [Jesus' statement about marriage] "let him receive it." 19:12.

The Testimony Of Jesus - Our Lord Recognized Three Kinds Of Eunuchs, Matthew 19:11-12

1. Eunuchs so born from their mother's womb. These eunuchs, according to Jesus, were born that way. They did not make a personal choice to be eunuchs and they were not physically castrated by men. Some Christians believe these men were homosexual eunuchs.

2. Eunuchs made so by men via physical castration. These eunuchs were physically castrated and could not consummate marriage.

3. Eunuchs who made a personal choice to be eunuchs, by abstaining from marriage, for the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus distinguishes the third class of eunuchs, who made a choice to be eunuchs, from the first class, who did not make a choice to be eunuchs.

According to Jesus, born eunuchs are exempt from the Adam and Eve style, heterosexual marriage paradigm. The common traditionalist tendency is to read into that exemption that all eunuchs must therefore be celibate, an assertion Jesus never makes.

Jesus did NOT prohibit
same sex marriage for born eunuchs
in Matthew 19:11-12
To read a prohibition of same sex marriage into the passage, when the passage does not say that, is to go beyond what scripture says.

It seems clear in Matthew 19:11-12, that Jesus did not expect homosexual eunuchs, born eunuchs, gay people, to abstain from loving, committed, same sex, marriage relationships which observe Biblical moral principles.

Is there room in this passage to allow homosexual eunuchs the right to same sex marriage? I believe there is room.

How do I arrive at that conclusion? In the passage, Jesus intentionally differentiates between born eunuchs and the class of eunuchs who voluntarily abstain from marriage.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 12, 2010 6:42:20 AM PDT
groomRN says:
It's interesting that you make this post because it brings up a point that has been on my mind lately. It seems that many people, including "open minded" Christians, feel that it is okay to be gay as long as you don't act on it, which is absurd. If that were true, then gay people would be condemned to living lonely, solitary lives, devoid of love and everything that goes along with healthy sexual relationships. The God that I know does not want me to be lonely and unhappy. He is a loving and compassionate God, and I don't believe He is watching us, laughing at all the sad and lonely gay people who are living solitary, celibate lives.
Besides, what is the difference between having gay sexual desires and actually carrying them out? Our thoughts ARE actions, so they are one and the same. People are still gay or straight even if they are celibate.
Also, living a lie only leads to more serious problems. God told us not to be "double minded" and what could be more double minded than pretending to yourself and everyone else that you're not gay. I can think of few things more lonely and sad than when you cannot be honest with yourself and others. It goes back to what I have said before: we don't choose to be gay, we're chosen. I look at being gay as a gift, and one I'm thankful for every day.

In reply to an earlier post on Aug 23, 2010 11:42:19 AM PDT
Dinubabear says:
Your points are off

1. If this were true then the Leviticus laws would no longer apply and it would be okay for us to eat pork, and wear poly-cotton blend clothing or touch something that was touched by a menstruating woman within the last 7 days. And we all know the religious right is consistent & doesn't allow this.

2. If you go back to the KJB you will find the word homosexual is not used at all in the New Testament, but effeminate was used. Homosexual was a new translation addition. In the Greek it means more like the mind is soft like a woman's- So Fence Sitter or Indecisive would be a better translation today. Also the Old Testament doesn't use the same word for a man sleeping with a man, so again the KJB writes if a man sleeps with mankind... Again not mentioning homosexuality, and Sodom & Gomorrah, men wanted to sleep with Angels not men. If they were gay, why would Lot offer his virgin daughters?

3. You misunderstand the story of Onan completely. Onan's brother was evil so God smote him, and told Onan to go to his sister-in-law and impregnate her, so his brother would have a son to inherit. The child would be considered his brothers instead of Onan's. So Onan jerked off as a form of birth-control before going to see his brother's wife, Tamar. God smote Onan for directly disobeying him, not for spilling his seed upon the ground.

Well, I am not sure I totally agree with your Ex-gay premise. I agree with Marilyn von Savant's premise that there are 2 types of gay people. I think some people are genetically gay and have they gay hypothalamus and can live a well adjusted life or screwed up one line anyone else. And "deprogramming" will just screw up their lives. So if they are genetically gay I agree with you. And others start out in an abusive, screwed up, or rapist environment, that may make them gay, and not well-adjusted. Therapy may or may not cure their being gay, but current ex-gay deprogramming will probably still leave them screwed up.

In reply to an earlier post on Aug 23, 2010 3:13:32 PM PDT
A. R. King says:
Well said and exactly right.

In reply to an earlier post on Aug 23, 2010 8:25:48 PM PDT
Robin R. says:
Stephen, I don't see how my points are off, at least not by what you've said.
1. For starters, you said: "If this were true then the Leviticus laws would no longer apply and it would be okay for us to eat pork, and wear poly-cotton blend clothing or touch something that was touched by a menstruating woman within the last 7 days. And we all know the religious right is consistent & doesn't allow this."

Ummm... Not following you. The laws of the Levites *don't* apply any longer - not to anyone but Orthodox Jews. Certainly not to Christians. Not sure what *your* point is here.

2. Re the translations, all I'm saying is that the gay lifestyle was not something society recognized. Whether the men who now identify as homosexual would have been labeled effeminate or something else, there's no way society of the day would have had anything like the concept of homosexuality or gays that we have today. They were all just people, and some men (the OT makes no mention of women with women) had this aberrative behavior of having sex with each other. It's true the words homosexual and heterosexual didn't exist until the 19th century, so they wouldn't have appeared in any scripture. And this supports the point that the concept had no context 2,000 and more years ago. So... what are you saying?

As for sleeping with angels... It's possible Lot recognized the angels as angels, but the towns people did not. They told Lot to send the *men* out to them. They were evil, per previous verses, and full of evil, and it's plausible that they wanted to show contempt to these strangers in the way men of that time and place frequently showed contempt to other men over whom they wanted to demonstrate power: they wanted to rape them, not sleep with them. But it had nothing to do with homosexuality or effeminacy. It was common practice for victorious soldiers to rape the vanquished survivors on the battlefield. Scripture tried to put a stop to it, though not very successfully. And that had nothing to do with sexual orientation, either. So this also supports my point that the concept of homosexuality was not understood at that time in that part of the world.

The angels were not gay. The towns people were not gay, or at least no more of them than would be gay today. The crowd was an angry, rioting mob, and Lot offered his daughters to them. I don't understand your question ("If they were gay, why would Lot offer his virgin daughters?"). They weren't gay. And Lot offered his daughters to avoid offering them the angels.

3. I don't see why God wouldn't have been equally irate with Onan for breaking one law as for the other. Not only did he disobey, but he disobeyed by breaking another sacred law. Masturbation was right in there with the other abominations. And when a man did that, he was killing a Jew (given that the Torah was speaking to Jews).

And now, for the ex-gay question. Whether or not there are people who believe incorrectly that they're gay, I say we leave it up to them whether they feel they've been pushed down the wrong path. But under no circumstances do I accept that they need to change so God can love them, which is unfortunately where the ex-gay camps start from.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 26, 2011 9:02:42 PM PST
First of all Robin, thanks for replying and giving your views. However, true Christians know that "All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight". I think that if you did thorough research, you'll find that most of the recognized translations say the same things that the oldest of ancient scrolls say. More and more secular evidence verifying the scriptures are uncovered every year, like the ancient cuniforms of king Cyrus which gives a medo/Persian account confirming the Bibkical accounts around 607 BC and the secular list goes on and on by the hundreds. God's word tells us that " It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step" and that the world through it's wisdom did not get to know God. If you're going to believe in an Almighty God then you must trust in him completely, with all your heart and do not lean upon your own understanding because the wisdom of the world is foolishness to God. We must use our brains as our creator intended, you see, all the things that were written aforetime were written for our instruction, yes Robin, they were written for a warning to us upon whom the ends of the systems of things have arrived.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 27, 2011 10:43:34 AM PST
groomRN says:
Z., it's interesting how you have classified us who don't agree with you as fake Christians, as opposed to "true Christians". It amazes me how the "true Christians" can decide who is a real Christian and who is faking it. Perhaps "true Christians" should leave that determination up to God. I suggest that you use your brain AND your heart to interpret God's will. You may be surprised to realize that God's will for me is not necessarily the same as His will for you. You may also be surprised to know that gay people (or, in fact, any other people) are perfectly capable of interpreting the Bible and understanding God's will for us.
I suggest that you put your Bible down for a while and start listening to God with your heart, because that's where He truly is.
What you're saying, if I understand what you've written, is that my relationship with God is bogus because I am living a satisfying Christian life as a gay man. I do trust God implicitly, with all my heart, and rely on Him every day. By living this relationship, I can't say I completely understand it, but I do know in my heart that I'm who and where God wants me to be. That's probably impossible for you to understand, but that's not my problem. I only have to answer to God, not man.

Posted on Feb 27, 2011 1:43:00 PM PST
A. R. King says:
groomRN says:
Z., it's interesting how you have classified us who don't agree with you as fake Christians, as opposed to "true Christians". It amazes me how the "true Christians" can decide who is a real Christian and who is faking it. Perhaps "true Christians" should leave that determination up to God. I suggest that you use your brain AND your heart to interpret God's will. You may be surprised to realize that God's will for me is not necessarily the same as His will for you. You may also be surprised to know that gay people (or, in fact, any other people) are perfectly capable of interpreting the Bible and understanding God's will for us.
I suggest that you put your Bible down for a while and start listening to God with your heart, because that's where He truly is.
What you're saying, if I understand what you've written, is that my relationship with God is bogus because I am living a satisfying Christian life as a gay man. I do trust God implicitly, with all my heart, and rely on Him every day. By living this relationship, I can't say I completely understand it, but I do know in my heart that I'm who and where God wants me to be. That's probably impossible for you to understand, but that's not my problem. I only have to answer to God, not man.
====================================
Well said GroomRN! As a gay man and a Christian and having spent two years (from age 18 to 20) in a Christian seminary, I see both sides of the debate here. Z is right that in this world and in the Church, there are true Christians and fake Christians. In scripture our Lord and Savior Jesus referred to them as the Sheep and the Goats in the Church. The Book of Revelation speaks of the day when Christ and his angels will separate the true Christians from the false and Jesus will say to the false: "Depart from me ye workers of iniquity, for I have never known you." And the angels will then cast the false (goat) Christians into outer darkness.
GroomRn is also correct in that one Christian cannot judge another Christian as to their position with GOD and whether or not they are a true Christian. For Scripture tells us that each Christian in the body of Christ (the Church) serve different functions and different positions. The only real difference between Christians that matters is whether you are truly born again or not. Some persons in the Church are not born again, but are there because of family ties or self-calling (as opposed to being called to salvation by the Holy Spirit) and opportunity. Some are in the Church to destroy it (ministers of Satan in sheep's clothing appearing as angels of light). I think of the Westboro Baptist Church and cults and self-serving priests and pastors and bishops mostly in that matter. I have seen these sort of supposed "Christians" divide and destroy Churches over trivial and petty matters. Which makes it easy on the rare occasion to spot the false Christian. And just because your heart is in the right place, does not make you a Christian. As Christ told Nicodemus and the scriptures say:

"There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again" (John 3:1-7).

Posted on Feb 27, 2011 2:08:07 PM PST
A. R. King says:
One of the most often quoted and misunderstood scriptures is Matthew 7:1 "Judge not, that ye be not judged."

But what does Jesus mean by that? Well, let's keep it in context and read the whole scripture: Matthew 7:1-6 (King James Version)

Matthew 7

1Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

6Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

What Jesus is teaching us here is a very special form of judgment we as born again saved believers are not to engage in. Hypocritical judgment of our fellow Christians and non Christians. Does that mean we are to refrain from all forms of judgment? No way! That would contradict most of scripture. We are to engage in judicial judgment of sinners and criminals and to discern blasphemy and heresy in the Church and among Christians. We are to judge and discern between good and evil. How could we function as messengers and followers of Christ (GOD) if we did not? Many scriptures command us to do so. And not just in the Church, but our local and national communities as well. For scripture says that the born again believer is the ambassador of Christ and the salt and light in the world of sinners.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 27, 2011 2:31:37 PM PST
groomRN says:
A.R. King, I'm glad you said it; we are all messengers of God. Therefore, it's our duty to share His love. It's NOT our duty to spread disharmony, ignorance, bigotry, selfishness, or any other evil. Naturally, we aren't perfect and make mistakes. But how do we explain that my partner and I cannot attend church anywhere in my hometown in central Illinois, because we would not be welcomed. We would be judged, criticized, and sent packing. How is that spreading God's love? The one place on this earth that anyone should be welcomed with loving open arms is the church.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 27, 2011 3:18:40 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Feb 27, 2011 3:20:59 PM PST
A. R. King says:
groomRN says:
A.R. King, I'm glad you said it; we are all messengers of God. Therefore, it's our duty to share His love. It's NOT our duty to spread disharmony, ignorance, bigotry, selfishness, or any other evil. Naturally, we aren't perfect and make mistakes. But how do we explain that my partner and I cannot attend church anywhere in my hometown in central Illinois, because we would not be welcomed. We would be judged, criticized, and sent packing. How is that spreading God's love? The one place on this earth that anyone should be welcomed with loving open arms is the church.
===================================

Well, there are no easy or simple answers here. The Church today, just like the Church of yesterday, has it's problems with perceived sin. Most people both in the Church and out of the Church don't differentiate between the sinner and the sin. In like fashion, certain sins are seen as far worse than other sins, which is truly unscriptural and based in human pride and arrogance and ignorance too. Many Christians have forgotten their own sinful backgrounds and natures and think they are somehow better than others because they are "Christian."

Also, when it comes to homosexuality, too many Christians and non-Christians as well, don't differentiate between being homosexual and homosexual practice. They fail to understand and accept the fact that "being" homosexual is normal and natural and equate it as a choice and therefore a moral choice making it a sin. The sin, scripturally, is in the behavior, not the orientation and even this fact is not accepted by many homosexuals in the Church. Consequently, the self-loathing and suicides of many. Fortunately, there are "Gay Churches" and non-Gay Churches accepting of their homosexual brothers and sisters. I hope one such Church is near where you live.

Posted on Feb 27, 2011 3:28:19 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Feb 27, 2011 3:54:00 PM PST
A. R. King says:
groonRN, like it or not, hypocrisy is a big part of any institution comprised of human beings. The Church in all it's denominations is not spared this. Remember, all Christians are "converts" from the sinful world. They bring with them into the Church their baggage of bigotry, prejudices and misunderstandings of Christianity and the Church in turn fails to teach effectively the truths of scripture. Consequently, many Churches are infected with interpretations of scripture through personal prejudices that make the scriptures mean something other that they actually teach. Homophobia and a misunderstanding of scriptures relating to it are an example. Many Christians and Churches would benefit from some sound lessons in the original teachings of scripture from a Jewish Rabbi. But then, even Jews have this problem in their faith. But they do have a proper understanding of the original scriptures of the Torah. Jesus changed many things too.

In reply to an earlier post on May 3, 2013 7:32:07 AM PDT
glownatural says:
You want a logical explanation for a supernatural deception. It is your choice to abandon biblical scripture on God's design for man and woman. It's exactly what the demonic forces want: for those who don't believe in Christianity to believe a lie.

Sodomy used to be illegal for a reason. If you won't listen to God, listen to what your body is telling you: it is harmful and leads to disease. deadly disease in many cases.

In reply to an earlier post on May 3, 2013 7:52:49 AM PDT
groomRN says:
I already know in my heart that my soul is right with God. You have absolutely no right to judge anyone. Your argument against gay sex leading to disease is ridiculous. Straight sex leads to just as many diseases, as well as unwanted pregnancies.
Do you follow all of the Bible's instructions regarding eating pork and shellfish, wearing clothes of mixed fibers, women wearing pants, etc.? I doubt it. But you and your sort enjoy picking and choosing what pleases you from the Bible. Jesus preached love and forgiveness, without judgment. I really can't see any of that in your sad little cm met.

In reply to an earlier post on May 3, 2013 7:54:48 AM PDT
groomRN says:
Also, you don't know anything about me, so you dont know if i listen to God or not. Stop judging and try loving instead. From your post, it is difficult to believe you have love in your heart.

In reply to an earlier post on May 3, 2013 8:19:27 AM PDT
groomRN says:
One more thing I just have to ask. Why do so many Christians feel compelled to judge everybody? Why do you focus on what other people are doing? God told us to love each other, but very few seem to care about that. So I'm curious why you focus on doing the thing God told us not to do, and ignore what He told us to do, which is to love. Your soul is between you and god, and I'm okay with that. Why can't you be?

In reply to an earlier post on May 3, 2013 10:57:29 AM PDT
Robin R. says:
groomRN: It's not just that glownatural and so many Christians are judging others that's most intriguing. It's that they seem to be so fascinated by what other people do for sex. Gotta laugh.

In reply to an earlier post on May 3, 2013 11:24:17 AM PDT
groomRN says:
Robin, you're right. They claim gay people are obsessed with sex, but I believe they are the ones with an unnatural obsession with sex, especially other people's sex lives. We gay people certainly aren't interested in what straight people do in their bedrooms! Ha!
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Discussion in:  Gay forum
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Total posts:  254
Initial post:  May 2, 2008
Latest post:  Jun 13, 2013

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