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The Honey Revolution

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In reply to an earlier post on Jul 10, 2010 5:26:33 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jul 10, 2010 5:34:39 AM PDT
YT, the 'average' pallet would find the Manuka honey rather unpalatable. I will be able to tell you more later, as I have some coming from NZ, but I have not eaten it recently enough to be an expert on it right now. George finds it quite sumptuous. It has so many flavonoids (originating from the plant kingdom) that it borders on being poisonous; this is why it is promoted mostly as a topical dressing. This does not keep heaps of people from ingesting it generously, but then they drink milk and take chemo generously too.

To answer the question about the most common honey in the market, one first needs to ask, Which Market? By volume, in the Western World, it would probably be Clover, from the pasture plant known as White Clover, as it is produced in all continents especially at latitudes greater than say, 30 Degrees and is popular in markets with a high disposable income.

However, just what kind of honey the Chinese are eating is beyond my knowledge. The sheer size of their population would make their figures very interesting. Up until recently, I suspect they would have exported most of what they produce, simply because their masses would not have had the purchasing power to compete with foreign consumers for it.

In the West, the larger the population, the more the honey production decreases, when quite the reverse seems to be happening in China. So some of our present and coming honey shortages may well be because more and more Chinese are starting to buy their own local product. Conversely, the Chinese may be stretching their own diminishing supply with rice syrup too. It doesn't pay to assume we know much at all about China. It is a bit like the People of Zimbabwe who consume precious little of the platinum they produce.

Just allow that if half of the flowering plants secrete nectar suited to the bees, and 20 percent of that batch produce nectar copiously enough to warrant the honey becoming a major market player, that means the number or various honey flavours worldwide would be the number of flowering plants times ten percent; so, the infinite number of varieties would be entirely overwhelming.

The most common supermarket honey would probably be a blend. Some honey gets blended in the beehive, some in the extracting plant the beekeeper uses, and much more in the processors factory who tries to market a uniform product regardless of where it came from and what properties it had. Just how much honey is used in the manufacturing of other foods is an unknown, but is probably constantly diminishing, as more and more honey shortages push more 'manufacturing grade' honey onto the retail side.

Straight line honey is a strong possibility (100% from the same plant species) but only in times of major nectar flows. The rest of the time, the bees gather nectar from a variety of plants, and although they may not do so on any single day, over the time of filling that hive with honey it is likely they will, as weather changes interrupt and influence each plant's nectar secretion in varying ways. On 'the day' however, the bees are quick to identify which floral type is secreting the 'best' nectar of them all, and they will work that one predominately. Hence, most honey is something less than 100% sourced from one plant species. It is the predominating flavours, colours and characteristics that we 'name' that crop on.

I fear most food processors who want to use the word "honey" in their labeling will be using seriously diluted product. This is one of the reasons why they want to import it; if perchance they get sprung using diluted product, they can blame it on some foreign country.

Global statistics on the honey market are not easy to follow and tend to be something of a secret anyway. So a honey expert is one who knows his own local varieties well! Honey is so negotiable (all but a monetary commodity) official figures on production and consumption may or may not be very representative of what really happens. It would be nearly as difficult as trying to determine how many eggs or tomatoes were produced.

Thanks, Guys, for 'bumping' this thread. The 'hounds' don't like using this thread, simply because they do not want it so conspicuously displayed in the amazon forums list. They are far more anxious to see the thread names include words associated with diseases, medicines or scientific discussions. It will be interesting to see how they go about trying to banish us without at the same time bumping us!

Thanks, Dan MS, for your witness. I too am forming habits that encourage me to try the honey first no matter what the malady. At the Farmer's Markets I even work hard to get a taste of it on the tongue of a very glum looking person, just to see how often it puts a smile on their lips. Smiles and honey are a great combination! Smiles relieve a lot of pain too, and are a great starting moment in any healing process. Smiles are death on disease!

Yes, I use the Royal Jelly pretty much continuously, although not religiously. It is just that I usually have it on hand and when I feel my nerves need support I will take it. I have done this for at least the last thirty years. I use pollen in fits and starts, but not regularly. The propolis is a real wonder product! I am a great believer in Propolis.

One of the strongest evidences for the Jelly is seeing how much the big pharmaceutical companies hate it. They know far more about it that we do, and they sure don't relish the thought of having to compete with it, so they denigrate it when required, but mostly they like to just ignore it and hope it goes away. A bit like the hounds not wanting to bump this thread!

Ten thousand people could die of some medicine or procedure the systems promote, and there would not be a word said, but let one person die who had recently been using the Royal Jelly, and the News Media folk will make a federal case out of it! So it simply says this to me: "If they are against it, I am for it!"

Time for sweet dreams again.


Posted on Jul 10, 2010 6:45:41 AM PDT
I admit it, I was guilty
But don't you believe it, that I was wrong
I never accepted my relocation
And I'm looking out past them four hours till dawn
I've dreamed of this day since they locked away the key
A prisoner in chains will not make a madman of me
These voices insane are telling me tales from the stars
So I call on the reigns of forces drawn in from afar
The walls have deceived me
I imagined this all on my own
These spirits around me, clouds of dust looking for a new home
When they tap on my shoulder, tell me I got what I deserve
I throw my arms & destroy them
Cause on this day they will eat all their words
I've dreamed of this day since they locked away the key
A prisoner in chains will not make a madman of me
These voices insane are telling me tales from the stars
So I call on the reigns of forces drawn in from afar
I can stop all the voices
and bang on the walls with my fists
But my only choice left
is the one I'd never dismiss
I hear the world through the echos
A song of life through the noise in the crowd
In this cell I've known plainly
That what I want is what is not allowed.
I've dreamed of this day since they locked away the key
A prisoner in chains will not make a madman of me
These voices insane are telling me tales from the stars
So I call on the reigns of forces drawn in from afar

Posted on Jul 12, 2010 5:50:33 PM PDT
OH! Now I get it. Thanks Android, for the subtle hint. The reason there are so many resident knockers in amazon forums is that you guys are doing time! I don't know why my psychic powers hadn't brought that possibility to my attention previously.

Oh well, such is life. I am satisfied that most of the people in jail at any moment got there as a surprise to themselves. Few if any of us set out to be criminals, but it sure does creep up on us unawares.

Do they not serve real honey in jails (or gaols, as we call them in Oz)? Maybe it was the honey that inspired you to wax poetic, Sir?

Anyway, the tone of the verse intones the indomitable nature of the human spirit, and I am glad it is alive and well in you. All good things come to those who wait.



Posted on Jul 12, 2010 7:56:09 PM PDT
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In reply to an earlier post on Jul 13, 2010 1:02:42 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jul 13, 2010 1:03:06 AM PDT
YTWong says:
John, thanks for your reply.

This may be a dumb question but as I'm not so familiar with honey and didn't do much research on it, so I hope you can reply and tell me more.

I was told that real honey can only be bottled in glass bottles/jars and not plastic bottles/jars. Because plastic will not allow the honey to last, or certain chemistry compounds doesn't mix with each other... Is this true?


Well, John, regarding your comment on pharmaceutical drugs versus honey...while doing my research on other topics, I came across these...

Honey can quieten a child's cough better than any medicine, say researchers
Read more:

Cough medicine banned for children under two as 100 remedies are taken off the shelves
Read more:


Posted on Jul 13, 2010 3:58:22 AM PDT
Yes, YT, now you are starting to see why honey is such a threat to the incomes of many people. Not only is it better than most other non prescription products when it comes to everyday ailments and discomforts, it does not produce the side effects that demand the harsher and more dramatic drugs either. By dealing with my minor complaints with honey and soft herbals, minerals, etc., I avoid the need for all these toxic compounds that keep most other people totally engrossed in talking chemistry. My time has been freed right up to talk about far more desirable things. But, of course, if everyone was like me, it would only be the beekeepers who had the money and the world would implode. Long live the system! As long as god can save the queen bee, it really doesn't matter too much if the masses get ripped off a bit.......... what do you think?

Regarding the plastic containers: Theoretical science is a wonderful game to play, but just being convinced in the mind does not bend the spoons for all of us. In the real world, everything would be better if it wern't so complicated, but alas, we already have complicated it, so what to do now?

There may still be plenty of amphora in that hill in Rome, and they may be ever so slightly better with regards to the lead leaching out of them into the honey, but when it comes to sending George honey from NZ by post, the amphora just don't cut it. Your source about the plastic bottles sounds like spin to me, but no doubt some nerd has perfected the theoretical science to back it up.

Things go better in glass. But what the heck? I use plastic bottles myself, and don't look like being able to extricate myself from them anytime soon. What difference would it possibly make in a life time? Maybe add another three or four days to the life span? In my humble opinion, the anxiety created by trying to be too pure can cause as much disease as the poison one is trying to avoid. Our bodies are wonderful devices and they can cope with a lot of punishment.

As an example, just look what has happened to our friend the Android. He may well have been drinking his distilled water out of a pewter cup, ......... for sure, something has poisoned him. It is the poisons we ingest, apply, breathe and select on professional advice that do us the most harm. Getting away from all of them takes one huge load off the liver and the kidneys so they can then deal effectively with the few environmental poisons which are all but impossible to escape.

Having said all that, I should confess though, that I have just accepted delivery of 63 glass jars of Manuka honey from NZ. The glass was not really my choice, however, as I had pictured the product arriving in ceramic tubs. Glass doesn't seem to attract much criticism, come to think of it. Maybe I am very lucky.

One thing I do with my honey drums, however, is coat the inside of them with molten beeswax. I would guess that beeswax would be the ideal medium in which to store honey.

The lads are doing a wonderful job of refraining from bumping this thread, but I see they have gone mad starting new ones. Maybe that is the new strategy.......... dilute the interest......... spread the visitors out as far as possible so their chances of falling onto one like this is reduced. Why don't you open one asking if the Gerson Therapy is worth studying? Do you reckon they would boycott that one? I'll predict a YES on that one. My ears are starting to heal a bit now that the barking has subsided.

Re; The Cough Medicines. Five deaths and a hundred serious reactions, aye? One child died in Lower Sloblovia twenty years ago of 'suspected' botulism poisoning from honey. I would dare say there have been some serious law suits brought against the makers of those products. It takes a lot of pressure to get that industry to back away from their products. I mean A LOT of pressure. One or two dozen deaths wouldn't concern them at all.

Stay Healthy.


In reply to an earlier post on Jul 13, 2010 6:24:27 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jul 13, 2010 6:26:10 AM PDT

As usual, you are talking out of both sides of your face.

"I avoid the need for all these toxic compounds that keep most other people totally engrossed in talking chemistry"

Yet, you attempt to talk about fructose-loading and glucokinase over in the agave thread.

"Your source about the plastic bottles sounds like spin to me, but no doubt some nerd has perfected the theoretical science to back it up."

But in another thread you say It is my humble opinion that owing to the aging process (or a diseased state) the liver looses its capacity to store the maximum amount of glycogen""

I see! Your opinion trumps science? I have never seen you disparage "spin" when it was done for a quack modality.

You state here that '"Things go better in glass. But what the heck? I use plastic bottles myself, and don't look like being able to extricate myself from them anytime soon."

While saying elsewhere "The tried and proven old ways continue to be the best, regardless of what the next popular line of science is used to promote."!!!! Like storing honey in glass?

Translation: John is against all things technological, chemical and capitalistic.. UNTIL IT WOULD DRIVE UP HIS BOTTLING AND SHIPPING COSTS!

What a raging hypocrite!

Posted on Jul 13, 2010 7:31:33 AM PDT
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In reply to an earlier post on Jul 13, 2010 7:41:47 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jul 13, 2010 7:45:07 AM PDT

John is a little shakey on understanding a metaphor.

He thought your other post from Scene IV of Hot Air Balloon was 'admitting' to being in prison!

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 15, 2010 3:10:49 AM PDT
YTWong says:
Michael, are your replies always based on insults?

John said he preferred his honey arriving in ceramic tubs rather than glass...which in my opinion, doesn't affect the shipping cost much!

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 15, 2010 3:11:44 AM PDT
YTWong says:
John, thanks for your reply.

A new topic for Gerson? Hmm...sounds interesting...I'll think about it! ;)

Posted on Jul 15, 2010 4:23:11 AM PDT
Thanks, Guys. You have decided to bump this thread after all, aye?

I'm a bit busy with my honey at the moment, but you guys carry right on. You're doing a great job!

My Dearest Michael. I do love science. It is a wonderful game. One just has to take extra good care not to take it too seriously. I might pop over to the agave thread now and see how my ffiends over there are going!



In reply to an earlier post on Jul 15, 2010 8:24:56 AM PDT
He's a situational Luddite....he's only for technology that aligns with his personal views.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 15, 2010 8:32:55 AM PDT
"He's a situational Luddite"

Yup! And this is a situation where science actually agrees! He *could* rightfully condemn certain types of plastics due to chemical leeching and can be villified from an environmental stand...but he "prefers" plastic!

I guess the fact that plastic is cheaper to produce and transport has nothing to do with it!?

After all, John is a not a businessman that values profits! He is a just a hobbiest interested in spreading the gospel of honey to the masses.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 15, 2010 8:39:31 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jul 15, 2010 8:41:48 AM PDT
Ali says:
D. A. Webster, you can't be serious. You're the person who claimed pleomorphism was debunked 100+ years ago. And Wasson is the person who claimed that nerves don't carry electric current, that eating cooked food causes no greater degeneration than eating raw food, that there are no sugar-regulating components in unheated honey, and that no ingested enzyme can function in the body. Every single one of these claims has been utterly disproved by scientistic research. When you call someone a Luddite, apparently you just mean that he's not bowing at your own favorite outdated technology.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 20, 2010 2:01:43 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jul 20, 2010 2:03:37 AM PDT
Nah, he's not serious, Ali. He just gets paid to write that kind of junk and he hates it. He eats honey and looks after himself with the same passion as you and I do, he just needs to keep his income stream going, and a bad job is better than no job.

His boss is losing his shirt, the world is spinning in the wrong direction, honey is taking over the minds and bodies of the intelligent people, and that leaves a lot of people in the lurch. You and I simply have to forgive him for being so willing to sell his soul this way and hope his youth can carry him long enough to get a better job.

You keep eating your honey, Dan, and something will break for you somewhere. This world's economic problems are greater than what you and I can solve for the masses, so no matter what garbage they encourage you to write, mate, you just keep you heart pure, your mind open, and one of the days you might make a good beekeeper! Start by finding yourself a local beekeeper, start reading books and surfing the internet and check out a few of your cousins farmlets in the country where you might be able to put a hive down............. just one step at a time, Mate, and it will all come together in the fullness of time!

Join the Honey Revolution!



In reply to an earlier post on Jul 20, 2010 2:47:11 AM PDT
OldAmazonian says:
I have read that Manuka Honey is made from the nectar of tea tree blossoms. Tea tree oil is also used as an antimicrobial treatment in humans (although it is deadly to cats) so the Manuka honey may have some of the same properties.

Posted on Jul 21, 2010 5:03:03 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jul 21, 2010 5:08:14 AM PDT
Indeed, In Australia, we have a plant called the Tea Tree, and it is one of several leptospermums we get a bit of honey from. The New Zealand Manuka is another leptospermum subspecies, which is considered to be a grandchild of the Australian strains. New Zealand being such a young land mass, it would appear that our varieties were here long before NZ rose up out of the sea.

The honeys we have from the leptospermums are indeed similar to the Manuka and are being marketed similarly, although the Manuka had a head start on us and that name looks like becoming the trademark for most all the leptospermum honeys. I suspect a little blending, borrowing and sharing of that now famous name 'Manuka,' will keep the Australian varieties in the shadows a bit.

Indeed the Australian Tea Tree Oil has been developed and promoted goodo, and is now known world wide. The New Zealanders are developing their Manuka for its oil too, but maybe the situation is reversed with the oils, as I would think the Aussies got in first and our Tea Tree oil may overshadow the NZ equivalent, at least in the near term. Those leptospermums are pretty remarkable plants.

I am seeing many reports of the Manuka honey being a wonderful skin treatment for acne. When one considers how many teenagers there are in the world at any one time, one wonders if there will ever be enough Manuka to go around.



Posted on Jul 21, 2010 6:57:24 AM PDT
I love honey man, I buy it locally too. Helps allergies for me, heard others too. Instead of regular caffeine, I eat a bowl of cereal with milk and honey and man that wakes me up. I dunno why, but this stuff is great for everything almost. Helps alot. Great energy.

Posted on Aug 18, 2010 3:18:12 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Sep 2, 2010 12:20:58 PM PDT
ParrotSlave says:
I finally got a kilo of the sidr honey, at an unbelievably high price, and it was delicious--and still is, and better be for a long time, because it is going to have to last--but I would have to rate it a toss-up as to which tastes better, the leatherwood or the sidr. I would wager that the sidr is reputed to have some kind of medicinal qualities.

And, Wong, unless you enjoy ingesting BPA and other plasticizers, stick with glass. For all practical purposes, glass is inert; that's why chemists and biologists use it in the laboratory. Glass doesn't contain any chemicals for honey (or other foodstuffs that you might be storing) to leach out. That's one reason I was so happy with my leatherwood and my sidr honeys: they both came in glass jars, which are harder and harder to find. Unfortunately, the only manuka honey I have found so far is packaged in plastic, but I am hopeful that I can find a supplier who is concerned that the product stays pure once it's packaged. Surely, somewhere in New Zealand there must be someone who understands why some of us still use glass.

Other things I buy are getting harder to find in glass too, like flax oil. Flora still carries it in glass. I buy wheat germ oil by the quart too, and Viobin still uses glass. I tolerate plastic for items that are refrigerated or frozen, because, since leaching is a measurable temperature dependent process, I figure that I don't have to worry too much if it stays at a low temperature.

I was trying to figure out the above two posts on this page by Paranoid Android, and a similar poetic post on page 9 of this forum. Wasson said something about "Hot Air Balloon" so I asked my friend Google, who obliged by pointing out that those posts here are verbatim lyrics from something by a group called "Disco Biscuits," which I had never heard of. Perhaps Paranoid Android is a member of that group, perhaps the author of those songs, but, if not, I am wondering why I see no credit given to the author, or even any quote marks being used.

John L., yes, there have existed poisonous honeys, produced from poisonous plants, that have even been used in ancient times to help disable an opposing army, but I would not consider any honey to be poisonous because of its flavonoid content. If that were the case, people would be dropping dead as they walk out of health food stores, since many of the products being touted these days are concentrated plant extracts, including concentrated flavonoids. As far as I'm concerned, the more the merrier. The weird thing about the manuka is that it smells like a hospital, not the way they smell these days, but the way they did decades ago. It smells clean and antiseptic, and I haven't died from consuming it. My parrots don't like it as well as they like the leatherwood and sidr; I have to hide the jars from them or the begging will never cease.

Posted on Aug 25, 2010 12:02:50 PM PDT
soda can says:
Quick question, if I may, I don't think it's too far OT. Isn't there supposed to be some problem with bees dying off, dissappearing or something, with threats of them even going extinct? Can somebody tell us something about this?

In reply to an earlier post on Aug 25, 2010 12:22:46 PM PDT
I think there are several proposed reasons out right now - parasites, pesticides, global warming, killer bees taking over hives, etc.... I'm sure John might have a more accurate answer. He's the resident honey freak.

In reply to an earlier post on Aug 26, 2010 2:46:33 AM PDT
ParrotSlave says:
I think the trolls must have nothing else to do. Here you are, answering a logical question, relevant to the topic, a question that anyone who understands the importance of bees to agriculture would be interested in, as well as its obvious implications on the supply (and, clearly, price) of that delicious golden syrup that bees gather. Regardless of what we think honey can and cannot do, we can all agree that it is delicious. Throw some money away and buy yourself some leatherwood honey; treat yourself, but don't tell your friends that you wasted the money. I didn't realize that the flavor differences were so great; it's almost like choosing one of the flavors at an ice cream shop. I wonder if the honey freaks are like wine freaks; I can envision a blindfold tasting--"Oh, this honey has to be from Billybob's farm in Cook County, I can tell by the overtones of lavender" or something like that.

But, anyway, for your post to be 0 for 3 tells me that somebody has it in for you personally. Of course, we don't know who does the voting. But I am beginning to give more weight to the hypothesis you advanced in another forum about that voting. If I were you, I would start voting simply out of aggravation. If you value free and open debate, you ought to start voting so that logical commentary doesn't get hidden by default.

In reply to an earlier post on Aug 26, 2010 3:53:52 PM PDT
Yeah, people are following me around now and voting no on everything.......yet I'm supposed to take health and nutrition advice from them seriously.

Posted on Aug 31, 2010 7:03:50 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Aug 31, 2010 7:09:02 PM PDT
ParrotSlave says:
Where is John L.? I'm blaming him for getting me started on honey, first with the leatherwood, then with the sidr. The other day, I saw a glass jar of fireweed honey, Honey Northwestern Fireweed - 1 Large (16oz) Jar, and I could not resist. Then I saw another product, "Really Raw" honey, Really Raw Honey Honey, Raw Unheated, Unstrained, 16-Ounce, and could not resist that either. Now I don't want to touch my leftover bulk honey from a year or two ago. Honey is really useful in giving Ziggy his medicine. Dogs and cats, when they see you putting foreign objects like powders or pills into their food, are likely to spit it out, but parrots don't mind as long as it tastes good. They don't even mind bitter tastes, but they are peculiar about texture. Ziggy loves honey.
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Initial post:  Nov 19, 2009
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