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Customer Discussions > Health forum

The Honey Revolution


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Posted on Apr 8, 2012 5:21:57 AM PDT
Dmconnelly says:
http://www.manataka.org/page1885.html

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 8, 2012 5:54:19 AM PDT
ParrotSlave says:
It's not important to the safety consideration whether it is the, or one of the, or not even related to the active ingredient(s). The only question is whether it is present in the honey, and we know it is, and whether or not it is present in quantity sufficient to cause any systemic effects if it gets absorbed, which I don't know, or, indeed, whether the substance in question even get into the system. I do not know the fate of orally consumed MGO. It is semi-reactive, so it is not inconceivable that whatever gets swallowed reacts with odd and end other substances in the stomach. One might wonder if applying it externally as a wound dressing would cause any absorption, or if, were it to be swished around in the mouth, if it might be absorbed, say, sublingually. One thing we do know for sure is that we need to minimize the amount of MGO and MGO-like substances in our system, because they seem to be inextricably linked to the aging process. It may be that the total amount of the substance in a normal portion of honey would be insignificant system-wide: I don't know.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 8, 2012 2:10:19 PM PDT
Ironically, it does not kill the bees, in fact when the Manuka bush is flowering, they flourish. Perhaps what we don't know is what is killing us as surely as what we do know. The aging process is one formidable process, caused mostly by living. So bring it on. I'm quite happy to engage it if the rate is normal (?)! Should I use, maybe, words like, Natural, Organic or maybe Approved!? What about, certified? When is it honourable to lay down and die?

Maybe we need a new toxicity test, invented specifically to measure and compare the impact on the aging process of extreme medicines, like chemo versus Manuka Honey. Then we could index all other medicines and indeed substances accordingly.

What if (Yes, I like playing "What If") MGO is that magical substance that responds directly to positive thought and triggers the activity of myriad other pro-biotic substances?

Do we have anyone in amazon Forums who truly believes that positive thought is 'not' pro-biotic (contraindicated)?

When folk concede reluctantly that it is always a good idea to clean up the act and live a healthy lifestyle, how exactly does that work with a cancer patient? Isn't cancer itself the ultimate opposite of health? How can a cancer sufferer be healthy? There is something of an oxymoron in there somewhere.

If we know so little about this elusive MGO, why is it that we have relegated it to the sin bin? Is it simply that at the moment (until we get the MGO Glucose bottled) there is a need for it to be a straw man type of monster? After all, knowing scientist like we do, and as you already indicated (MGO -like substances?) as time goes by, we can expect to see MGO MarkII, and MGO MarkIII and left hand spinning MGO, and then eventually, ORGANIC MGO (ad nauseum). Then there is the strong possibility that yet another substance will be found in the honey that modifies the MGO or counters it in some yet to be understood way.

We err when we insist that mankind is capable of understanding the forces of life. Indeed, we can study them and occupy ourselves merrily, but I doubt if there will ever be a way to come to terms with those elusive forces save to simply accept that they exist and that we are the expression of them more so than we are the creators of them. Insufficient respect is present in our sciences for the simple fact that the biosphere has it all together in a good way, and the older animals have their own good adaptations to it, and that MANKIND IS A YOUNG ANIMAL!

Is the good health that has been traditionally and is currently obvious (to a child) that comes to users of honey so difficult to see? Or is it just difficult to make money out of it? Was `good health' always meant to be free?

Cheers and thanks for your considered posting, George. It is good to know you are thinking along those lines and mulling that stuff over in your head.

John$

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 8, 2012 3:09:27 PM PDT
Thanks, DM for this link.

Here's the kicker in that report for the rest of us:

''''''''''''
These findings may also prove valuable to non-Indians who are susceptible to overweight and diabetes, and perhaps also those prone to high blood pressure and heart disease. The benefits, which are also found in a few more familiar foods like oat bran and okra, stem from primarily two characteristics of native foods: their high content of soluble fibers that form edible gels, gums and mucilages, and a type of starch called amylose that is digested very slowly. The combined effect
is to prevent wide swings in blood sugar, slow down the digestive process and delay the return of hunger.
''''''''''''''''''''

A homecoming is overdue for all of us, Aye? All Sickness Is Home Sickness There is so much evidence that a return to our forebears traditional diets would help us erase our modern chronic ailments. I support in principle the Paelo diets for this reason. Modern factory food is a killer.

I pulled a very great deal of honey out of the cotton growing around Sacton in my youth. It was good to see that word in print again. I had forgotten it existed!

Cheers.

John$

Posted on Apr 8, 2012 11:14:15 PM PDT
Alex says:
Honey and cold cream is an old world war I method that was used to treat infections in wounds. Before the birth of antibodics. We still use it today when antibodics fail. Never underestimate the power of the old world treatments. They are asume and powerful ! ... :)

Posted on Apr 9, 2012 1:27:18 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Apr 9, 2012 7:48:30 PM PDT
ParrotSlave says:
The fact that something has been used medicinally for millennia does not mean that it is either harmless or effective. A good case in point is cinnabar, mercury ore, that is still used in China and India. But when something has had historical use in totally unrelated societies around the globe, and over vastly different eras, one must consider the substance seriously. And scientists do take the medicinal properties of honey seriously.

What blinds most people to the mere possibility is that they see honey as nothing more than sugar. They overlook that it contains phytochemicals from plants, in addition to chemicals that may result from processing by the bee itself. Honeys exist that are so powerful that they can kill people--poison honeys, such as in eastern Turkey, that cause grayanotoxin--mad honey disease. Could anyone with a mind possibly argue that there exist honeys so powerful that they can kill you, or make you severely ill, and then turn around and contend that it would be impossible for a honey to exist that might have some kind of healing property or another? Despite the unscientific prejudice by supposed scientists against even considering the possibility, it has been studied seriously by various researchers for a number of reasons. The effect on MRSA is just one of many discoveries about honey.

A study in Experimental Dermatology a couple of years ago stated, "Honey has been used since ancient times as a remedy in wound healing. However, even though the results from randomized clinical trials document that honey accelerates wound healing, no study dealing with its influence on human skin cells (epidermal keratinocytes and dermal fibroblast) has been performed. We demonstrate that keratinocytes, which are known to be involved in wound healing, are responsible for elevated production of mediators including cytokines (TNF-α, IL-1β and TGF-β) and matrix metalloproteinase-9 (MMP-9) after incubation with honey....we show that the increased level of MMP-9 in the epidermis following incubation with honey leads to degradation of type IV collagen in the basement membrane. These data indisputably demonstrate that honey activates keratinocytes and support the findings that honey may accelerate wound healing process." (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1600-0625.2009.00994.x/full)

Another recent study concluded that because "honey produced faster healing in patients with grade 2/3 chemotherapy-induced mucositis, we recommend using honey and possibly other bee products and olive oil in future therapeutic trials targeting chemotherapy-induced mucositis." (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22475306)

An Iranian group found, "in honey-dressed wounds, early subsidence of acute inflammatory changes, better control of infection, and quicker wound healing were observed, while in mafenide acetate treated wounds a sustained inflammatory reaction was noted even on epithelialization." (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22396671)

Or, "Manuka honey and oxacillin interacted synergistically to inhibit MRSA. Manuka honey reversed oxacillin resistance in MRSA, and down-regulation of mecR1 was found in cells treated with manuka honey." (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22382468)

It would probably take a day or two to comb the literature [pun intended], and I see no point in that: we all have browsers, and there are still a few of that ancient invention called "libraries" around. The point is that, the way I see it, the evidence in favor of honey as an adjuvant treatment in some disease conditions is overwhelmingly positive. It's one of those cases of "you have nothing to lose, and a great deal to gain." I don't have the same world view as John; in fact, it's almost as though he's from another dimension sometimes, but we agree on keeping honey around the house. I would have to warn you about him, though: honey is not a panacea, regardless of what he might say.

Posted on Apr 9, 2012 7:03:17 AM PDT
I must admit that I've been in a bit of a pickle lately, and I'm wondering if some of the folks in this discussion can talk me down. I've been a beekeeper for several years, and have done my share of reading on the beneficial qualities of honey. Over the past few years I've been eating honey more regularly, and have started replacing some of the sugar in my diet with honey. But a few months ago, I decided to go on a low-carb diet (in part after reading the book Why We Get Fat). I cut out almost all sugar, honey, HFCS, as well as other refined starches and flours. I have consequently gone from about 210 lbs to 185 in about 3 months and I feel great. I'm becoming more and more convinced that carbs are the reason we get fat, and the reason we have metabolic diseases. Recently, 60 minutes ran a segment calling sugar a poison and, while I generally don't even watch much TV (and certainly don't believe everything I hear in the media!), I believe that 60 Minutes is probably right in this case.

My question is - where does this leave my love of honey? I know the many studies which have demonstrated its antioxidant potential, as well as immune boosting, anti-microbial etc properties. And I love my bees. But at the same time I know that most of what is in honey are simple carbohydrates. Its glycemic index is somewhat below that of table sugar, but still pretty high. Already I feel "guilty" when I eat honey because I know it will stall my diet.

Is anybody else experiencing cognitive dissonance about this? What's the best strategy? I know some will say moderation, but I'm really looking for a purist's point of view. Is honey a "bad" or a "good?" Do its other properties outweigh its contribution to weight gain? Or are obesity and metabolic syndrome so dangerous that we should leave the honey for the bees? If 2 groups of test subjects are put on a strictly controlled diet, and group A is given a certain amount of sugar per day while group B is given the same amount of honey per day, which group will gain/lose the most weight? Which group will have the best cholesterol, triglycerides, BP, etc? Or will they be pretty much the same? I don't imagine anyone has done this specific study, but maybe someone should.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 9, 2012 4:22:39 PM PDT
Diggity, there certainly have been the trials you define done on rats. The results are heart-warming! I do my own tests, on my own body. The results are the same! Trials with a large sample of humans may be a while away yet, although informal ones like mine are happening all over the world right now in an almost explosive manner.

The revolution I see happening with honey could also be called a 'Sweetener's Revolution.' It extends to all foods for some of us, and a general return to natural, whole, minimally processed and modified foods is happening big time now amongst thinking and sincere people. Unfortunately for the `old school' fraternities worldwide, many of the people making up this groundswell are professional medical and scientific folk.

The myth of our ability to 'improve' on our food by chasing the dollars therein has been BUSTED!

When I make my milkshake with honey, cocoa powder and milk, I consider it a 'guilt free' treat, a sleeping tonic and a source of excellent fuel for a tired body needing a long session in recovery mode. Whether it fits our philosophy or not, we still need to have glucose in our blood to keep our brain fed, even if we are using no other part of our body!

Unfortunately we have acquired a guilt complex about our eating habits in general. I guess the breatharians had a hand is this? Well, there are animals that live without drinking water too, but I still just a human and I need food, water & air.

In my younger years I studied the effects of starving the body into making the necessary changes. Now I am studying the effects of feeding the body to prolong energy and a bountiful life. They both work and have good roles to play; a time to fast and a time to feast!

JohnS may not be scientific enough for you guys, but the books I am referring you to will give you easy access to many of the secrets about honey you are seeking.

Stay Sweet!

John$

The Hibernation Diet
The Honey Revolution: Restoring the Health of Future Generations
Your reply to John L. Smith's post:
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Posted on Apr 16, 2012 1:09:18 AM PDT
Here's another confirming story about sugars and diabetes.

http://www.ngrguardiannews.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=83252:defects-in-treating-type-2-diabetes-with-drugs&catid=178:living-healthy-diet&Itemid=705

Keep sweet with honey!

Cheers,

John$

Posted on Apr 16, 2012 4:00:25 AM PDT
amazonfan#1 says:
Three of my toenails were black and fell off about every year or so. I asked the Podiatrist what I should do and he said that surgical removal was the only solution. I found the Honey Cure in Manuka honey 16. My toenails were completely well in a little over a month and three jars of Manuka 16. I painted all ten of my nails red, and they are beautiful. I was also sick from mold (chronic fatigue/lyme/adrenal exhaustion. I am feeling so much better. I order from Amazon of course. I was sick for 33 years. Beverly Glutamine powder made me feel better, Bromelain is good but NOTHING compares to honey.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 16, 2012 4:25:34 PM PDT
Good for you meema. We are actually put together for good health. This business of constantly seeing ourselves as sick is an acquired condition. Glad you looked for and found your own path to good health.

The main reason why honey doesn't work for some people is that they don't try it!

I got caught out this past weekend........... going off to do markets without my personal bottle of the Manuka honey (I hesitated to break into yet another marketable one). Anyway, the usual sunburn happens and I had to use one of my table honeys on the sunburn. It did give good relief and started the healing process, but only about half as effectively as the Manuka usually does.

The Manuka gives instant relief from the burning and the skin is quite clear in a matter of hours, but my table honey was much slower in its impact (about double time) so that when I awoke during the night, the skin was still tender in spots. However, by daylight it was ready for another day in the open and the usual dose of more sun.

I love the good health and freedom from pain and chronic worries that comes from using all the honeys to their maximum potential.

Cheer and thanks for posting.

JohnS

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 17, 2012 12:46:56 PM PDT
J. C. says:
Thought I'd jump in here with a quick question. I haven't taken time to read the whole post, so please forgive me if it was answered somewhere in the middle. My daughter has Type 1 diabetes... is honey good for her? Thanks for your reply.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 17, 2012 12:54:34 PM PDT
Honey is good for her as long as it's taken into account when she doses her insulin. But it remains to be very careful when adding ANY extra sugar to the diet when you're insulin dependent. Things can get out of control pretty quickly.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 17, 2012 7:43:20 PM PDT
Well, actually, it is being proven that honey actually helps regulate the blood sugar. It is important though, to use only REAL honey, not honey from a box store that is cheap and nasty, i.e., probably diluted with glucose. Depending on what the percentage is of factory derived glucose to real honey, the blend could be somewhat OK but can also be not so OK and spike out the sugars.

It is as simple as this, the liver partitions real honey out into the system in different ways to how it treats the factory syrups. Real honey contains about equal parts of glucose (from flowers) and fructose. The fructose is useful to the liver when there is surplus glucose in the blood stream, as the fructose allows the liver to mop it up and store it in the liver as glycogen. Stored glycogen is like money in the bank, readily and easily available for when the blood glucose commences to fall below the desired levels again, as it usually does after a spike.

So any real honey included in the diet becomes a helper in controlling the blood sugar levels. Never would it be a good idea to gorge oneself on honey, none the less. Most of us have not-so-fond memories of doing that as children, and it was not pleasant.

In the book The Honey Revolution: Restoring the Health of Future Generations it is explained how replacing most all the factory sweeteners with natural honey can be very beneficial to our general health. It also supports honey as the preferred sweetener for diabetics. I use honey liberally now, as my guilt free sweetener, but surprisingly, probably I eat less honey now than I did before, as it does not overstimulate the appetite as the factory derived sweeteners do.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 17, 2012 9:02:11 PM PDT
Honey doesn't regulate sugar in people with IDDM. The only thing that regulates sugar is a normal insulin response, which doesn't happen with IDDM.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 18, 2012 3:28:06 PM PDT
I firmly believe that while there is life there is hope. Or, in other words, it is never impossible to improve on one's health in general and thereby push diseases and even birth defects to the background even if they are not entirely eradicated from the body.

A good mindset, a disciplined diet and lifestyle will do this. There is no problem of a chronic nature that cannot be nudged forward toward a solution with positive application of mind and spirit.

Drug dependencies of all persuasions need to be dealt with on an individual basis, but the younger the person the more reason to have hope and make the effort. I witnessed this with my own sister 50 years ago, who was shaping up to be an asthmatic. Had she gone with your drug pushers, Danny, she would have been dead by now most probably, poisoned by chemicals. Instead she went with freshly juiced fruit and vegies and a healthy diet in general. To this day she does not rely on chemicals. These kinds of results may not be available for the weakest members of our society, but they are certainly available to the strongest. We choose!

The current emphasis on drug dependencies (medicinal) is an acquired disease in its own right, and modern high-tech chemistry is only exacerbating the condition.

So what are you recommending, Danny? Should this person live without food? Will insulin alone preserve and maintain life? No? Of course not. The child needs to eat something. The child needs sugar in the blood to keep consciousness. There is no better source of instant blood sugar than fresh fruit and real honey.

J. Casebolt, I directed this message to Danny as she proposes to be one of our resident experts on everything, but I do so with the confidence that you are perfectly capable of making good decisions regarding the management of your own child. I wish you every success!

Cheers,

JohnS

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 18, 2012 3:41:07 PM PDT
Everyone who is IDDM would be dead if it weren't for insulin.....insulin produced by drug companies. IDDM people can survive without honey. They can't survive without insulin. You give out dangerous information John.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 18, 2012 3:43:46 PM PDT
Not sure where you got the notion I suggested someone can live without food. But I guess I have to take into account your skewed thought processes.

Posted on Apr 18, 2012 4:14:51 PM PDT
How exactly do you state as a fact: "Everyone who is IDDM would be dead if it weren't for insulin?"

As a good Catholic, I would have thought you believed in miracles, but maybe you don't. It does appear that anyone with no faith whatsoever is seriously headed for the grave. For sure there are many gravestones there already.

I am definitly skewed in favour of LIFE. I am a believer. It is my firm conviction that the race is to the strong! Fear is part of reality, but so is FAITH. If I can do it, if my sister can do it, others can do it too. I cannot choose on their behalf just which way they will go, BUT THEY CAN!

In the mean time, Merlin the great Magician enters the stage!

Cheers,

JohnS

PS: Thanks for your participation in this thread, TD5757. You are now doing a great service to humanity by bringing this thread forward.

Posted on Apr 18, 2012 4:18:08 PM PDT
John L. Smith says:
How exactly do you state as a fact: "Everyone who is IDDM would be dead if it weren't for insulin?"

All type I diabetes is fatal if left untreated. Fact.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 18, 2012 4:26:34 PM PDT
J. C. says:
I appreciate everyone's posts concerning my question (Type 1 Diabetes & honey). I am not thinking of honey instead of insulin, but rather, can a T1D even use honey without causing wild blood sugar fluctuations? I'll have to check Dr. Bernstein's books and see what he has to say. My daughter is 17 and soon to be out on her own. I want her to be as well prepared as possible to make healthy choices. Thanks to all for your thoughts.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 18, 2012 5:11:58 PM PDT
She can eat honey. She just needs to carefully take those calories into account when she doses the insulin.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 18, 2012 5:49:21 PM PDT
Life is fatal if left untreated, TD.

But your statement is not definitive. You didn't say treated with what! Sure, you want me to treat my blood sugar spikes with your boss's insulin, but please tell your boss for me that I can make my own insulin, as can everyone who has a pancreas. I also know that growing children whose pancreases have not yet fully developed have the potential to heal if and when their pancreas is not functioning adequately. It is only a miracle to those who do not understand the process.

Good luck, J. Casebolt. You have done a good job I am sure getting that girl to seventeen, as we all, as parents, have great pride in our efforts expended on behalf of our families. My wife and I reared 4 daughters, long since passed the 17 mark, and in fact have granddaughters beyond it also.

I suspect your 'thank you' note might just have had the intention of closing the subject rather than see TD5757 and I get all knotted up over it, and indeed you are welcome to come and go within the conversation as much as it suits you, but you need to ignore the sparks that fly between other posters and myself, as we thrive on confrontation, at least in words and in the safety of these pages. We have been round and round on these subjects for ever it seems, and there is no end in sight.

I can appreciate the apprehension you feel as that bird prepares to leave the nest. We all have that worry. But for sure there are many worse things out there awaiting all of us in this modern society than a spoonful of honey, or a dose of Insulin. Unfortunately, almost all the processed foods we are now exposed to contain generous amounts of sweeteners, and much of it does not get counted in our daily tally of how much sugar we are consuming.

In my case, eliminating 90% of those sources and using honey exclusively as a sweetener gave me a remarkable turnaround. In fact, I now use less honey than I did before I quit all those other sweeteners. And not that I starve myself, but that I am not constantly and ravenously hungry like I was for most of my life.

I have just read the Wikipedia article on Dr. Bernstein. Quite a remarkable story, I must admit. I see also that he has a forum going. Are you a participant in any such forum? Unfortunately, in amazon forums on health, he would be designated as a quack, as he disagrees with much of what mainstream authorities recommend. The article did not mention whether or not he minimised or even quit his insulin treatments, but he certainly became his own doctor, something I strongly recommend to folk in general.

It seems to me that our medical profession generally have a bias against honey, while at the same time they remain reticent concerning most of the other sweeteners. One of the authors of The Honey Revolution is himself a retired medical doctor, so his logic string FOR honey is based on good judgement while still being backed up by science both old and new. You could do well to present a copy of that book to your daughter.

Also, we here at amazon forums welcome your remarks on what you learn from Dr. Bernstein and also from your own experience. Despite the loud cries for everything brought forward here to be perfectly in accord with the official line, I for one put as much credence in personal testimony as I do in isolated pieces of science and pseudo-science.

Dr. Bernstein's way of segregating foodstuffs into carbs and no carbs distresses me somewhat. I suspect his take on his own condition is that he was and is permanently committed to be a Type I Diabetic. I do not limit myself thusly, not with diabetes nor any other condition whether physical, mental or spiritual.

The loss of a body part is about the only condition I consider myself unable to heal. Hence, once I have had time on a particular healing modality to get back to my personal `normal' I consider myself at liberty to once again participate in any lifestyle luxury or indulgence that I may previously have overdone. As long as I stay in balance, I believe there is a time to feast and a time to fast. I do not want to ever permanently deny myself another nip of whisky, for instance, despite the fact I intend to keep it all but absent from my diet.

There are oh so few foodstuffs that are entirely either carbs or proteins, and certainly no 100% mineral substances are truly foods. I fear a diet focused excessively on what we know as protein foods would be unhealthy, and then, no two experts can agree on just which foods are which, with some declaring high-protein breads as protein foods. Fat is nearly all carbon yet it is not considered anything other (as a food class) than fat.

There is far too much fractionalising going on in science. It is time to put the cat back together and see if we can make it purr again. Holistic thinking about all issues is now the leading edge of creativity.

Cheers,

John$

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 18, 2012 10:12:12 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Apr 18, 2012 10:13:05 PM PDT
"But your statement is not definitive. You didn't say treated with what! Sure, you want me to treat my blood sugar spikes with your boss's insulin, but please tell your boss for me that I can make my own insulin, as can everyone who has a pancreas."

You're obviously having a learning disability here John. Why would someone treat a healthy person with insulin? We're talking about IDDM here - Type I Diabetes...a disease in which the body's own immune system destroys the cells that produce insulin. John, you give an IDDM person honey, you'll kill them as they cannot catabolize the sugar.

"I also know that growing children whose pancreases have not yet fully developed have the potential to heal if and when their pancreas is not functioning adequately. It is only a miracle to those who do not understand the process."

Growing children? His daughter is 17. Your pancreas is fully developed at 3 months. It is YOU my friend, who cannot understand the process. Stop giving out dangerous health information and thinking people with IDDM can eat honey and live happily ever after. There are people not as lucky as you John. They cannot live long without professional help....and it's no fault of their own. Sometimes you just get dealt a bad hand in life and you have to deal with it the best way possible. You do a great disservice and add insult to injury to these people who struggle to live normal lives and you come along and think some philosophical platitude will cure their disease. Stop insulting people's intelligence and start respecting the hardships they must endure.......and pray karma overlooks your situation.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 18, 2012 10:16:06 PM PDT
"I am definitly skewed in favour of LIFE. I am a believer. It is my firm conviction that the race is to the strong! Fear is part of reality, but so is FAITH. If I can do it, if my sister can do it, others can do it too. I cannot choose on their behalf just which way they will go, BUT THEY CAN!"

When your immune system destroys your insulin-producing cells, no amount of wishing/faith will cure you. Your faith is the conviction to seek help. Intelligence is taking care of yourself. Enlightenment is knowing when to seek help.
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