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Single payer health care reform. Why Health Care is a Human Right.


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Showing 801-825 of 1000 posts in this discussion
Posted on May 14, 2012 12:08:16 PM PDT
Bulbo says:
Over 30 pages of posts and not one person has given any valid reasoning or proof that health care is a 'human right'. Many posters say it is an obligation of the state, i.e. the state's more productive citizens (the state earns no wealth, it only takes wealth from it's citizens) to provide health care for all (including criminals who are here illegally) but that still does NOT make health care a 'human right'.
Didn't think I would see any proof, but I am open minded, sorry no one could prove me wrong.
Health care is NOT a human right.

In reply to an earlier post on May 14, 2012 2:19:51 PM PDT
[Deleted by the author on May 14, 2012 2:20:18 PM PDT]

In reply to an earlier post on May 14, 2012 2:23:15 PM PDT
caregiver says:
Bulbo, It may not be a right, but I think many would view it as a moral responsibilty. By the way using your logic of "no proof", it would also be hard to make the case that God exists, but many would disagree with that logic, also.

Posted on May 14, 2012 2:57:19 PM PDT
C. Johnston says:
Health care is a personal responsibility. Employers nor governments exist to provide health care. Health care economics have been badly manipulated for decades. Since we, the direct consumers of health care, no longer face the full price of care, the typical market forces can not work. We individuals have little incentive to 'shop' for the best health care buy. We have little incentive to educate ourselves about the product or service. My parents, as responsible adults, new that with each child there would be health care costs. They learned & behaved to keep us healthy. We also had 'catastrophic care' health insurance. Insurance means protection from an unexpected loss. Obama Care is not insurance nor a way to improve the health status of the population; it is simply a way to pay health care providers & we know govts. fail miserably at efficient stewardship.

Posted on May 14, 2012 3:02:51 PM PDT
Ash says:
@ C Paxton, you seem to be suggesting that citizens of countries with a single payer system do not take responsibility for their own health.

Posted on May 14, 2012 3:08:46 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 16, 2012 11:21:35 AM PDT
C.Paxton: WOW, thanks for that great advice! We all just need to apply market forces to healthcare!! We need incentives to "shop for the best price."

What a better time to go "Shopping" than when you are sick and dying?

How exactly did your parents "learn & behave" in a way that kept you healthy?

You mean there is a way to "behave" that can keep you from getting MS? Or Cerebral Palsy? How about car accidents? Are people in car accidents because they had poor parenting?

Currently the government runs the most popular and most efficient healthcare plan in the country.

Are you sure you're not from Alabama?

Posted on May 14, 2012 3:19:23 PM PDT
Ash says:
This from the New Republic:

"Even the Costa Ricans have health insurance for all their people." That was Howard Dean's old line, when he was talking about all the countries that had universal health care. Today, Dean could also say "Even the Mexicans" or "even the Chinese."

As Noam Levey reports in the Los Angeles Times, expanding access to health care has become a truly global cause, with even developing countries pushing hard to make sure all of their citizens have insurance or some other way of getting affordable medical care.

China, after years of underfunding healthcare, is on track to complete a three-year, $124-billion initiative projected to cover more than 90% of the nation's residents.
Mexico, which a decade ago covered less than half its population, just completed an eight-year drive for universal coverage that has dramatically expanded Mexicans' access to life-saving treatments for diseases such as leukemia and breast cancer.
In Thailand, where the gross domestic product per person is a fifth of America's, just 1% of the population lacks health insurance. And in sub-Saharan Africa, Rwanda and Ghana-two of the world's poorest nations-are working to create networks of insurance plans to cover their citizens.
"This is truly a global movement," said Dr. Julio Frenk, a former health minister in Mexico and dean of the Harvard School of Public Health. "As countries advance, they are realizing that creating universal healthcare systems is a necessity for long-term economic development."
That last point is important. These countries have come to the same conclusion that every other developed nation on the plane has: Access to health care provides all kinds of benefits, economic as well as social, that more than justify the investment.

That's not to say these countries don't struggle with the cost of health care or that the actual delivery systems in places like Mexico or China compare favorably to those in the United States. They do not, based on everything I know. And I'm pretty sure-based on what friends in China tell me, as well as my visit there last summer-that "universal access" is still very much an illusion there. But developed countries in Europe and Asia, from France and the Netherlands to Japan and Taiwan, have demonstrated that it's possible to provide high quality, convenient care while actually spending less than we do-and yet still make sure every person has health insurance.

Will the U.S. ever get there? The Affordable Care Act will, upon full implementation, bring health insurance to more than 90 percent of the population (and an even higher percentage of legal residents). It will also put in place a system that, if strengthened, could eventually bring insurance to everybody, while starting the hard work of reengineering the medical care system so that it becomes more efficient.

But Republicans in Congress have already tried to repeal the law and Mitt Romney has pledged to do the same thing as soon as he gets to office. The Supreme Court, meanwhile, may get there first, by striking down the measure in part or in whole. If any of them succeed, the U.S. will remain a "developing" country, not a developed one, at least when it comes to making health insurance universal.

In reply to an earlier post on May 14, 2012 8:19:19 PM PDT
Your tumor is NOT your fault, it's a bad break. However, your "right" to medical care end at my pocketbook.

Posted on May 15, 2012 3:17:41 AM PDT
Bulbo says:
Again, if health care is a 'human right' then EVERY HUMAN BEING would have that right.
Every human being has the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, although some governments suppress/oppress those rights.
As to the badly misnamed 'Affordable Care Act', if that is a 'human right' why are so many millions of our humans exempt from it's laws? If they are human, and they have rights, why exempt them?

In reply to an earlier post on May 15, 2012 6:55:32 PM PDT
Ash,
You write: "I am not interested in Cuban politics. My point is that Cuba has a product it will be able to sell to American citizens once that country is opened up: Medical tourism for the masses."

If America were to end travel restrictions and trade restrictions on Communist Cuba, go for it. You are free to choose, as long as it is not on my dime.

In reply to an earlier post on May 15, 2012 7:09:52 PM PDT
Ash,
You write: " look at Japan's reasonably priced, market-based system, universal system with a low copay that is set by the government. Japan has a higher percentage of privately owned clinics and hospitals than does the USA."

By all means except by my subsidizing your passport, if you wish to move to Japan, do so.

Have you ever considered that the cavalier behavior of risk taking parallels that attitude of "oh, don't worry, I have insurance" delusion of security? This lifestyle of redistribute the wealth, redistribute the work, and redistribute the responsibility is the foundation socialism and will drive the human spirit and economy into bankruptcy.

Why is the public "right" to risky behavior a right to publicly pick my pocket pocket?

In reply to an earlier post on May 15, 2012 7:17:27 PM PDT
Ash,
You write: "the New Deal was a disaster? You mean the part that saved American capitalism?"

The New Deal destroyed capitalism and delayed economic recovery for an additional 10 years during the Great Depression and Obama's similar policies are continuing to destroy America's recovery in this depression.

You write: "If FDR had not died in office, we quite possibly would have gotten the healthcare system we deserve..."

Most likely, Ash, you and I would never have been born, or simply left to die in the crib under Roosevelt's socialized medicine, just like Obama's medical triage.

In reply to an earlier post on May 15, 2012 7:22:18 PM PDT
Dore,
have you ever considered that if the New Deal had not been passed by Congress, which also included the National Recovery Act overturning the anti-trust laws, allowing price fixing amongst monopolies and the destruction of small business, prolonging the Great Depression, and prolonging the world depression, that capitalism would have driven America into recovery, as well as the entire world into recovery, and we would never have seen the rise of Adolf Hitler?

In reply to an earlier post on May 15, 2012 7:37:43 PM PDT
Hirsch,
When Hitler came to power, the entire business community was reorganized under the Reich, allowing the cartels to incorporate medium sized businesses while the smaller businesses were dismantled by the Reich's decrees. The Reich's economic policy makers then assumed control over the cartel's Board of Executives. You might enjoy investigating the Marshall Plan, the re-institution of the insurance industry and private banks, by US Forces at the end of the War. Take a look at the Nuremberg trials against the I.G. Farben Cartel, for instance - there were many others as well which were under government control.

The Arms of Krupp: The Rise and Fall of the Industrial Dynasty That Armed Germany at War by William Manchester.

Nevertheless, the current 500 German insurance companies are very inexpensive and provide for the vast majority of German citizens not on welfare. Certainly, this makes us wonder why we don't overturn America's McCarran-Fergusson Act of 1945 allowing Insurance exemption from the anti-trust laws and price fixing. We are saddled with artificially high prices due to Roosevelt's policies under his National Recovery Act, which parallels the Third Reich's cartels.

In reply to an earlier post on May 15, 2012 8:00:32 PM PDT
Hirsch,
You write: "I'd find it easier to read your posts if you didn't make simple mistakes such as confusing Medicare with Medicaid."

I am not confusing Medicare with Medicaid.

If you were to get h old of the IRS pamphlet #969 "Health Savings Accounts and Other Tax-Favored Health Plans" and browse through subsection "Medical Savings Accounts (MSAs) on page 8, Archer MSAs page 8, Medicare Advantage MSAs page 12; you would discover that this MSA availability has been currently dropped by the HHS, whereas only two or three states now continue this service for its constituents who previously opened one under the Bush administration. If you key in www.medicare.gov you will note the MSA are no longer available to senior citizens. Unfortunately, HSAs must be discontinued once a citizen turns age 65. Freedom to choose and self reliance and the mere potential of decreasing dependency on Big Government terrifies the Democrats.

There are many ways that the unleashing of the free market would advance human prosperity, as opposed to socialism merely redistributing wealth and holding down growth. It is more puzzling to me as to why our nation stifles the free market while propping up defunct socialist systems, deliberately impoverishing than enriching the entire lot of humanity.

In reply to an earlier post on May 15, 2012 8:09:50 PM PDT
Ash,
You quote from the New Republic: "As Noam Levey reports in the Los Angeles Times, expanding access to health care has become a truly global cause, with even developing countries pushing hard to make sure all of their citizens have insurance or some other way of getting affordable medical care." and add:
"China, after years of underfunding healthcare, is on track to complete a three-year, $124-billion initiative projected to cover more than 90% of the nation's residents."

China also has a one baby policy, forced abortions and sterilizations, political prisoners executed for harvesting their body organs to be sold on the black market by the Red Army, and have rejected any free AZT drugs from the Bush Administration to combat AIDS while executing victims as enemies of the state.

You like "free" socialized medicine? Wait till you see your new FICA tax at 50% of your paycheck. At what point do we sacrifice our personal sovereignty to the State? Whose body is it anyway?

In reply to an earlier post on May 15, 2012 8:23:19 PM PDT
brainpowerinuse,
You write: "Your tumor is NOT your fault, it's a bad break. However, your "right" to medical care end at my pocketbook."

Please purchase a medical savings card at $29.95/month, receive upto 50% doctor discounts, lab, pharmaceuticals and XRays while those policy holders' lawyer will negotiate pro-rated hospital costs according to income. You might also ask your employer to open a HSA to pay for the small stuff and visit a local free clinic when necessary. Of course, you could also sign up for Medicaid if you live in one of our 50 states or territories.

I just googled: "California Free Clinics," about 10,200,000 results:
HARP Clinic Page
Low-cost and Free Clinics in Southern California. All speak English and Spanish
unless otherwise noted. Call for Hours. See Also: California Free Clinic List ...
www.harp.org/clinics.htm - Cached - SimilarCalifornia Free and Affordable Clinics - Clinics in California | Free ...

Search below and find all of the free clinics in California by city. We have listed
out all of the cities below in California, where we have free medical clinic listings.
www.freemedicalsearch.org/sta/california - Cached - SimilarSan Francisco Free Clinic

San Francisco, CA 94118 ... Proceeds will support the SF Free Clinic! ... in the
Richmond District of San Francisco, at the corner of California Street and 11th
Ave.
www.sffc.org/ - Cached - SimilarOrange County, California's Free Clinic, HIV Testing, Homeless ...

Dec 21, 2010 ... Orange County, California health services from free clinics to homeless shelters.
voices.yahoo.com/orange-county-californias-free-clinic-7447424.html - Cached - SimilarNeedyMeds Free Clinics List by State
1043 Free, Low-Cost or Sliding Scale Clinics in California. Please contact us if
you know of any other clinics that should be added to our list. To print all clinics, ...
www.needymeds.org/free_clinics.taf?_function=list&state=ca

Why not do a google search for your state?

Posted on May 15, 2012 8:38:36 PM PDT
caregiver says:
Hey Ash, Have they convinced you yet? Universal health care is unnecessary because it would just cover people who are too stupid to provide for themselves. These loafers should pull themselves up by their bootstraps or just let them fend for themselves, right? No way they should get a dime from people that can afford to pay their way! Of course, they don't realize they are already paying for everybody who doesn't pay but gets treated anyway. The deadbeats won after all! I have been caring for my wife who has been mentally disabled since 1982, I just spent 35 minutes cleaning up an underwear mess, I spend hundreds of my own money for her care, just bought a reclining wheelchair on Amazon, but I am glad that our government provides Medicare for her, even though I buy her supplies myself. I have to stop typing because my arm is throbing from moving her around. I doubt any of these people have a clue what it's like to be truly in need. Medicare would never exist if it was up to them. If you try to point out other systems that work better these people suggest you move to that country, love it or leave it! You give me hope Ash, the others make me sad.

In reply to an earlier post on May 16, 2012 12:51:19 AM PDT
Rachel wrote:

"have you ever considered that if the New Deal had not been passed by Congress........ we would never have seen the rise of Adolf Hitler?"

Well, Have you ever considered that if Congress had never passed the Tax Reform Act of 1986 ........... we would never have seen the rise of AIDS?

In reply to an earlier post on May 16, 2012 1:32:06 AM PDT
R. Halliday says:
It's a right and a privilege to take care of yourself. Weather you pay for healthcare or not. I don't see why you think ME paying for YOUR healthcare is your right. I'm sorry you have a tumor, and if I knew you personally maybe I would do something to help you, but I don't know you and you seem like a jerk. So no, I would prefer you pay for your own doctor visits.

In reply to an earlier post on May 16, 2012 1:58:27 AM PDT
R. Halliday,

how many times do you have to have it explained to you that you are already paying for the uninsured RIGHT NOW? You are just doing it in the least effective but most expensive way possible. How many times do you have to have it explained? Serious, how many? Just tell me so I can plan.

The least you can do is tell me how many times you need to have it explained that you are currently paying TWICE the going rate for healthcare in the industrialized world, with way worse results. How many times do you need that explained? Throw out a number.

How many times do you have to have it explained to you that when you hear a big pharma or health insurance shill say "They want you to pay for someone else's healthcare!" that it is a cheap scare tactic used to distract you from the real screwing they are currently giving you on your premium right now? (Remember how you are currently paying twice the going rate for healthcare in the industrialized world?) How many times do you have to have that explained to you? Just please tell me.

How many times do you have to have it explained that even if you have insurance, if you or a loved one gets seriously ill there is a still a good chance your own finances will be seriously drained if not depleted and bankrupt you? And why? All because you bought into the corporate talking points about the evils of "socialized medicine"? How many times? Serious.

In reply to an earlier post on May 16, 2012 5:06:27 AM PDT
G. Heron says:
R. Halliday.

"It's a right and a privilege to take care of yourself."

Quite right, the blind should look out for themselves and people in wheelchairs should stand on their own two feet.

I am a British citizen and without the NHS I would be dead so perhaps that makes me a bit biased.

The idea is simple (in Britain, I don't pretend to know the ins and out of the American proposals) People pay into the NHS through taxation and medical services are provided to the population based on need.

I think you will find that a lot of the people in the world can't understand how the worlds richest country can't ( or wont) provide decent health services for all its population.

Posted on May 16, 2012 5:12:24 AM PDT
G. Heron says:
I forgot to say that the proposed changes to US health care got quite a bit of coverage over here in the UK and the claim, by someone opposing the changes, that if the Physicist Stephen Hawking had been born in Britain he would not have survived raised a lot of laughs.

Posted on May 16, 2012 5:18:20 AM PDT
Bulbo says:
Still, not one person with proof that health care is a 'human right'.

Ash and Dore call names and spread snarf, and add nothing to the discussion.

Still, no proof that anyone in America, including criminals, non-citizens, and the penniless, are ever turned away from a hospital or clinic.

One person states that children have a 'right' to free food at school (and somehow thinks that is proof health care should be 'free'). No, children have a right to be fed by their parents, otherwise, the parents are criminally negligent, and should be treated accordingly. You wouldn't buy a Ferrari if you couldn't afford to maintain it, why have a child you can't afford to feed? Condoms, abstinence and giving your child up for adoption are free in every state in America.

In reply to an earlier post on May 16, 2012 6:36:00 AM PDT
Ms. Verdon,

Thanks for your reply. I'm no expert on the Krankenkasse but I don't see any indication in your reply about Nazi industrial policy and the Arms of Krupp that you know anything at all about their functioning either prior to Hitler, during the Nazi regime or post-war. If I'm wrong, I'm sure you'll correct me by supplying information about the Krankenkasse, in particular backing up your original claim that the Americans set up the 500 competing health insurers in Germany.

From the World Health Organization's publication on the history of the German health care system, which actually is on the subject of the German health care system, I find the following:

"During the national-socialist (Nazi) regime, the fundamental structures of health care financing and delivery were maintained..."

"The western allied forces basically supported and relied upon existing personnel and structures in health care and administration."

"[T]he conservative Christian Democratic Party won the first elections in 1949 and by 1955 had basically restored the health care system which had existed at the end of the Weimar period on a national level (in coalition with the employers)."

Health Care Systems in Transition: Germany
European Observatory on Health Care Systems
World Health Organization, 2000.
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