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Yesterday I was told not to spank my child anymore because its considered sexual abuse.


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In reply to an earlier post on May 12, 2012 11:30:37 AM PDT
Becky says:
Some people find the idea of considering corporal punishment to be abuse condencending because it implies that they have engaged in, or continue to engage in, child abuse. The accuracy of the statement isn't the issue to them, it's that the accuracy implies their behavior is inappropriate. Remembering that these are the same people who advocate hitting people who engage in inappropriate behavior, it's no wonder they have a problem with accepting what science has demonstrated, and in turn become defensive with anyone who presents evidence of harm caused by spanking.

In reply to an earlier post on May 12, 2012 11:31:54 AM PDT
Daisy says:
Seven of Nine,

How you get rigid from the following is anybody's guess: "I will here admit that [I?] advocate one form of corporal punishment for a very select few in very specific circumstances. This means that I am an advocate of corporal punishment. This does not mean that advocate spanking, beating, or other forms of hitting. See, it's actually quite simple to be honest about it, when you can first be honest with yourself."

Re: "Nothing I post will change your mind it is closed." Have you noticed that Becky's not made changing your mind - or anyone else's mind, for that matter - her project? Relatedly, have you observed that she shares what her thinking is and only invites you to respectfully consider what she has to say and then make your own decisions? And that she does that consistently?

I wonder why that upsets you so?

In reply to an earlier post on May 12, 2012 11:40:12 AM PDT
Daisy says:
"Incidentally, it's interesting to see how the self-righteous attempt to deflect attention away from their condition by proclaiming as "judgmental" or "condescending" or 'not nuanced enough" anyone who does not offer them personal approval via endorsement of their ideology. I'm not here to approve or disapprove of you or anyone else. What I do not approve of is corporal punishment. "
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I don't want you to approve. I don't want you to disapprove. You are random participant in a discussion.

There is a pattern I have encountered among people who are condescending, judgmental and only view issues in black and white and that type of rigidity stifles conversation and encourages abuse.

In reply to an earlier post on May 12, 2012 11:43:01 AM PDT
Daisy says:
Becky, "Some people find the idea of considering corporal punishment to be abuse condencending because it implies that they have engaged in, or continue to engage in, child abuse."

If only we humans were more readily able to we were feeling threatened when we felt threatened ...

I admire your commitment to honesty. And I admire too your ability and willingness to use language that invites people to safely disarming themselves. I have much to learn from your tactfulness. Truthfully, in a more personal setting I'd be much less apt to use the (accurate) term 'child abuse'. I've chosen to use it here - even at the risk of further alienating the defended - because I'm aware that plenty of people read these forums w/out commenting. And for them, I'll call a spade a spade. Nevertheless, I believe your tact has much to recommend it.

In reply to an earlier post on May 12, 2012 11:49:30 AM PDT
Becky says:
"In doing so, I'll acknowledge your personal attack, but please don't think I'm in agreement with it :) "
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It was not an attack. It was not personal.

You made a conscious choice to view it that way and I can't control your perceptions.

In reply to an earlier post on May 12, 2012 11:56:39 AM PDT
Becky says:
Thank you. I feel the same about you.
In my own personal and professional life I also handle things differently. If someone spanks, I'll explain the point at which it becomes illegal, as well as teach other, healthier ways of handling behavior. Some parents will continue to use spanking, but at least they have more effective tools so children's behavior improves and spankings become less frequent. Other parents are able to fully do away with spanking.
I've stated before that I hope someday spanking will be illegal. I also hope Parent training will some day be part of every high school curriculum. I don't expect this to happen in my lifetime, but maybe my future grandchildren or great-grandchildren will have the benefit of living in a society that doesn't allow violence directed at our smallest citizens.
I must go for now. My baby is starting to tire of driving so it'll be my turn soon, and I must get off the phone.

In reply to an earlier post on May 12, 2012 12:06:26 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 12, 2012 12:06:46 PM PDT
Daisy says:
"Re: "Nothing I post will change your mind it is closed." Have you noticed that Becky's not made changing your mind - or anyone else's mind, for that matter - her project? Relatedly, have you observed that she shares what her thinking is and only invites you to respectfully consider what she has to say and then make your own decisions? And that she does that consistently?

I wonder why that upsets you so? "
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That post was about being called an advocate corporal punishment. It is untrue and if a person won't allow the truth won't penetrate a closed mind I surrender.

Wonder no more, I am not upset. I recognize that this is a discussion and I expected to encounter different opinions:-)

In reply to an earlier post on May 12, 2012 12:49:09 PM PDT
Daisy says:
Seven of Nine,

Let me be more clear. My essential question is this: Why do you take it upon yourself as a goal to change anyone's mind about anything? Isn't it sufficient to simply express your own thinking, allow by checking w/the other that you've correctly heard the other person and ask questions when you don't understand something?

If you are offended by my designation of you as an advocate of corporal punishment (which I believe you are because you do stand up for a parent's 'right' to spank) why not simply tell me you find that offensive or disturbing? You may or may not persuade me to change my mind, but - and this is important - I will understand how and perhaps even why you found that designation so disturbing. Isn't that enough?

In reply to an earlier post on May 12, 2012 2:16:53 PM PDT
Becca S. says:
I am a mother of 3. I have an almost 5 yr. old, a 3 yr. old, and an 22 month old. I have not spanked my children and will not spank them. I believe in time-outs and other methods. The most I might do, is smack their hand for touching something they could get hurt from. I always make sure to keep my anger in check. Even when my kids run off in a parking lot or something, I get down to there level and talk to them. I have plenty of people who will tell you that my kids are more well behaved then most kids they know. I was spanked as a child, I know what that is like, trust me. But, why should we do the same as what our parents did? My parents weren't perfect, neither am I, but I can still try to do what's right by them and not humiliate them in public. They get enough of that at school and other places throughout their lives.

In reply to an earlier post on May 12, 2012 3:46:49 PM PDT
[Deleted by Amazon on Jul 22, 2012 8:35:15 AM PDT]

Posted on May 12, 2012 4:18:11 PM PDT
Daisy says:
Sam and Becca,

I agree w/you both. Nothing beneficial comes from humiliating a child (or anyone else, for that matter). There is so much good, easily accessible, information on how to parent effectively. No one would expect to learn how to fish simply because someone handed them a fishing rod - but somehow parents are supposed to know how to parent by virtue of being presented w/a newborn!

Even people w/good enough childhoods can benefit by adding to their parenting skills. And why on earth not? If you wanted to improve your cooking skills, you'd take classes or take notes in a friend's excellent kitchen. There are some very interesting comments here made by people who didn't get spanked as children and don't spank their own children .. and yet continue to learn how to be more effective parents simply because they consider their children (and themselves) worthy of the effort.

The majority of people (if not all) posting here who have advocated for corporal punishment as an effective disciplinary tool are only able to present entirely subjective evidence along the lines of "hey, look at me - I was spanked and I turned out just fine .. and so now I spank my perfectly fine kids" to support their claim of spanking as useful. And then there are those who present even more harsh evidence in support of corporal punishment. It's chilling.

Interestingly, the comments made by people who more honestly recollect what spanking actually taught them (fear and loathing) reflect a more mature relationship w/objective reality. They have taken courageous steps and deliberately sought out new ways that do not rely on corporal punishment by availing themselves of thinking/experience other than their own.

And Becca, I especially appreciated that you recognize that your parents weren't perfect and you are not looking for perfection yourself. Just better ways to love your precious children. I can readily imagine that it took real risks on your part to move away from the 'old ways', forgive your parents (as able) in the process and be a more connected parent by doing so. I hope your parents are as proud of you as you deserve!

In reply to an earlier post on May 13, 2012 11:30:17 AM PDT
Becky says:
Becca, you make a beautiful point. Our parents weren't perfect, and if they unknowingly did things that weren't in our best interest, but were doing the best they could with what was available at the time, it's easy to forgive their mistakes.

We do the best we can too, with what knowledge is available at this time. Certainly in decades to come, some of the things we do now will be discovered to be harmful, as better ways to deal with problems are discovered. I don't think we can be held accountable for what is not now known though. And the same goes for our parents, they really had no way to know they may be inflicting harm by spanking.

The difference is, now there is strong evidence that other ways work better, without risk of harm, such as getting down to your children's level to talk to them. There's no mandate that parents educate themselves on childrearing, so it's up to parents to take that responsibility on themselves. Self-education may be easier for some than others, for myself it's been fairly difficult, because for well over a decade when confronted with misbehavior my first impulse was toward anger. But with lots of practice of parenting skills, and lots of opportunities to learn what works, it becomes easier.
I've also found that I need to practice the same patience with myself as I practice with children. When learning parenting skills, even now I continue to make mistakes. Instead of focussing on the error, I improve more by focussing on those times when I do things right, and my child responds favorably. My own behavior improves by reinforcing good parenting skills, and providing no more than momentary self-scolding for poor parenting. If I "beat myself up over it", the next time faced with a similar situation, I'm likely to get angry quickly, instead of remembering mental rehearsal of good parenting skills.

Anyway, I do go off on tangents sometimes. It sounds like you've made a determination to be the best parent you can be, and I'm sure your children appreciate it :)

In reply to an earlier post on May 13, 2012 11:39:01 AM PDT
Daisy says:
Happy Mother's Day, Becky ... and to everyone else who may read this ....

In reply to an earlier post on May 13, 2012 11:44:05 AM PDT
Becky says:
Happy Mother's Day, Daisy! Please give yourself the Mother's Day your son would want you to have :)

And happy Mother's Day to all the mommies. Parenting brings a lot of joy, but it's also a lot of work, and I hope all the mommies take some time out today to remember some of the special times they've spent with their children :)

In reply to an earlier post on May 14, 2012 4:07:34 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 14, 2012 4:07:53 AM PDT
SO9

Were you around for the "original" spankling threads? The ones started by Goldfield? I know Horse was.

There was an especially loony poster there.

She "knew" that all the people that disagreed with her were "victims of abuse"
She aborted her own pregnancy, and "saved" it from ever being spanked.
She quoted and revered Alice Miller like a fanatic acolyte.

I find this group to just be a different incantation!

In reply to an earlier post on May 14, 2012 11:40:24 AM PDT
Michael Wasson:

I was around for the second incarnation with Panthor.

And yes there were some bizarre and loony Alice Miller cult members there.

I agree. Same issues, different thread. Same tactics. Not a reasonable group unless you agree and drink the KoolAid.

In reply to an earlier post on May 14, 2012 11:46:31 AM PDT
And the hatred of sarcasm!

I could not be part of a group that does not appreciate good sarcasm!

In reply to an earlier post on May 14, 2012 12:04:36 PM PDT
kismet1113 says:
While I don't know where you live, I can tell you that legally in the state of PA it is not sexual abuse. In the state of PA you may spank a child, as long as it is open handed (no fists), does not leave marks, and is not done using any implement (a wooden spoon, fly swatter, etc are considered child abuse). Spanking is generally a parental, choice but there are lines you can't cross and they vary in each state. Most states have a child protective agency of some sort, it would take 5 min tops to calls yours up and find out what your state's laws are. I was spanked as a child, in a way that PA considers abuse, and I am a well adjusted, educated, successful woman...don't allow society to raise YOUR children.

In reply to an earlier post on May 14, 2012 12:39:49 PM PDT
Daisy says:
"If you are offended by my designation of you why not simply tell me you find that offensive or disturbing?"
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It's a lie.

In our culture unfortunately lying is all too common so I find it neither offensive or disturbing.

In reply to an earlier post on May 14, 2012 2:07:53 PM PDT
Becky says:
Wow. If you would just use a dictionary you would see that Daisy's word was 100% accurate. You don't want to know the meaning of what she said, though. You'd rather defend your ignorant position because you can't handle admitting you were wrong. That, my dear, is simple, blunt honesty.

In reply to an earlier post on May 14, 2012 2:13:34 PM PDT
Becky says:
I can't help but wonder how many times you've spanked your kids because you didn't know a meaning, or were in some other way just plain wrong.

In reply to an earlier post on May 14, 2012 2:23:07 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 14, 2012 2:25:30 PM PDT
Daisy says:
Seven of Nine,
Re: "It's a lie." It's not a lie to refer to your position on corporal punishment as advocacy of corporal punishment since that's precisely what you advocate for when you condone spanking as just another method of effective discipline.

But it could very well be dishonest of you to claim that you found such a designation neither offensive or disturbing. If having it pointed out that you are, in fact, an advocate of corporal punishment affected you neutrally -- if you thought it was simply a mistake on my part -- I wonder why you feel the need to launch a personal attack on me and call me a liar? Or do you believe you were being attacked by me? If the latter, it would be reasonable to find being attacked offensive &/or disturbing. If the former, why attack me?

Finally, you say, "In our culture unfortunately lying is all too common so I find it neither offensive or disturbing." What culture, exactly, are you referring to when you say, "In our culture ..."?

In reply to an earlier post on May 14, 2012 2:25:56 PM PDT
[Deleted by the author on May 14, 2012 2:27:31 PM PDT]

In reply to an earlier post on May 14, 2012 2:28:35 PM PDT
Becky says:
"Wow. If you would just use a dictionary you would see that Daisy's word was 100% accurate. "
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advocate (verb) - push for something

I don't push for parents to spank. Parents who know their children best should decide what strategies to use. That includes whether or not to punish and how.

I don't agree with the inaccurate portrayal of spanking. That is not the same as advocating or pushing for the spanking.

I don't agree with police brutality. By your logic that is the same as advocating for crime.

In reply to an earlier post on May 14, 2012 2:34:13 PM PDT
Daisy says:

"It's not a lie to refer to your position on corporal punishment as advocacy of corporal punishment since that's precisely what you advocate for when you condone spanking as just another method of effective discipline. "
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advocate (verb) - push for something

condone (verb) - 1. to overlook or forgive (an offence)

To condone something is to over look or forgive to advocate is to push for something.

Not the same.
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Discussion in:  Health forum
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Initial post:  Mar 29, 2012
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