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Infant circumcision


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Posted on Jun 15, 2011 1:24:33 PM PDT
@ Gumbee

Thanks back at ya.
Most of this is splitting hairs.
Taking this into consideration, when standing back and looking at it, it is an academic exercise.
Remember, Dr.B has mentioned many times he does not see the point of RNC.
Caught this exercise on the last Amazon Discussion.
Good to continue. Let it become heated at times. This subjects deserves it.
To my academic bent on this subject, the other stuff is more pervasive so I insert what I do - even with sarcasm when see something idiotic repeated.
Sometimes ya gotta hit where the 'normal unconscious' needs awakening.
Also, mythworking of the past, as well as the present, is the doorway to the Collective Unconscious usually using psychic archtypes as the gods and the goddesses.

Posted on Jun 15, 2011 1:26:57 PM PDT
@ Jennifer:

Nice post.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 15, 2011 1:36:58 PM PDT
Gumbee65 says:
@JB,

Thanks, I thought that was a very cogent response. My question was sincere and I felt your answer was clear and relevant. So, thank you :-)

I do agree with TD thou on your claim, "Despite your descriptions of the horrific side effects of RNC none of them are having any problems and they don't even know anyone who is!" I'm sure you know this is a generalization. So, I assume you meant it anecdotally.

I found this interesting: "Some studies link involuntary male circumcision with a range of negative emotions and even post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). Some circumcised men have described their current feelings in the language of violation, torture, mutilation and sexual assault. In view of the acute as well as long-term risks from circumcision and the legal liabilities that might arise, it is timely for health professionals and scientists to re-examine the evidence on this issue and participate in the debate about the advisability of this surgical procedure on unconsenting minors."

Male Circumcision: Pain, Trauma and Psychosexual Sequelae
http://hpq.sagepub.com/content/7/3/329.short

Thanks again.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 15, 2011 3:39:14 PM PDT
Gumbee,

Thank you for accepting my answer in the spirit in which it was intended. I am not claiming that my statement is not anecdotal or based on my experience , I am simply presenting a gestalt of why I believe that men don't accept the foreskin/clitoral argument, nothing more. But I do believe there is truth in my thoughts. It's not that your statements aren't true but they aren't given much credence by the man on the street because you're statements are not within the realm of their their experience.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 15, 2011 4:58:21 PM PDT
@J

<<http://hpq.sagepub.com/content/7/3/329.short>>

Here is a link to a study done last year showing a statistically significant lower incidence of UTIs in circumcised males compared to uncircumcised males.

Posted on Jun 15, 2011 6:02:55 PM PDT
@ Dr.B:

When I read the link and saw 'short' I thought the article was from the xxxx (meaning a man who has his women standing under a red lighted street lamp) Roger Short. OK, I'll say it as the convicts I used to work on say about themselves: "Entrepeneur."

That link is to an Abstract.
The actual article has got to be at least 10 years old.
Think the whole article can be found on http://www.cirp.org
The lead writer is Dr. Gregory J. Boyle.
Neat Aussie. Reservist with the Royal Australian Army when I met him.
Double PhD in psychology. One in Australia, the other in Delaware.
Professor at Bonn University, Gold Coast, Australia.

Still UTI's in males should be treated as female UTI's.
They are also less prevalent than in females.
No need for an all-involving Socialized Purification Ritual.
With infants and children the fetish habit of forced premature retraction leading to iatrogenic infection has never been discussed.
Old dudes can get a Partial Dorsal Slit.

Posted on Jun 15, 2011 8:12:07 PM PDT
Gumbee65 says:
@JB,

You said, "I am simply presenting a gestalt of why I believe that men don't accept the foreskin/clitoral argument, nothing more." Just to be clear, what do you mean by "the foreskin/clitoral argument"? I don't believe there has been an argument comparing the foreskin to the clitoris.

You said, "But I do believe there is truth in my thoughts. It's not that your statements aren't true but they aren't given much credence by the man on the street because you're statements are not within the realm of their their experience. "

This is your opinion and I don't agree with it.

Take care

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 15, 2011 9:01:07 PM PDT
Jeez, Gumby, I think w/o a doubt, of all the discussion groups I have participated in, this one takes the prize of the number of concrete thinkers. Erase the word argument from your brain. Now draw a line to indicate a blank space, then write whatever word you feel is appropriate and we'll call it a day, after all, it was your question that I was giving my opinion on so it's only fair that you get to correct any unintended interpretations about what you really said and what you intended to say.

My point was that it was a dilemma for you, not me, and you asked the question why men considered men and women to be different in regards to their genitalia and I gave you my opinion. You don't agree with me which is fine but I'm not sure what part you don't agree with.

I would hope after I specifically stated to the contrary, you didn't interpret my generic use of "you" in my post to mean I was referring to you personally, if so, I want to assure that I was not referring to you personally.

You don't agree that most men are circumcised and that most of those circumcised men feel that they're doing fine and that most haven't ever even known anyone who has had a problem related to their circumcision?

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 15, 2011 9:20:25 PM PDT
"Letting kids make decisions when they aren't supposed to" - not sure what you mean, no one is suggesting that a child should be given the choice to be circumcised ? The point you seem to have missed, or ignored, is that regardless of the pros & cons your child should decide WHEN HE IS AN ADULT. If you circumcise him as an infant you deprive him of the choice, you are forcing your will upon him for his life time.

Then ask yourself: would an adult male, with no medical issues, choose to be circumcised ?
The answer is NO, so why do it now ?

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 15, 2011 9:36:37 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jun 15, 2011 9:41:06 PM PDT
Gumbee65 says:
@JB,

You said, "Jeez, Gumby, I think w/o a doubt, of all the discussion groups I have participated in, this one takes the prize of the number of concrete thinkers."

Intuitively, I have been providing both abstract and concrete thinking. I don't know your point here. Please explain.

You said, "You don't agree that most men are circumcised and that most of those circumcised men feel that they're doing fine and that most haven't ever even known anyone who has had a problem related to their circumcision? "

I did provide a Journal publication that covered some of your comments. http://www.cirp.org/library/psych/boyle6/

Take care

Posted on Jun 15, 2011 9:59:57 PM PDT
FWIW: IMO this discussion is already leagues ahead of the other one! The willingness to find common ground of communication, even when it takes joking and some arguing, is truly inspiring! I've truly come to like this group of people, and feel I'm learning a lot!

Posted on Jun 15, 2011 10:31:19 PM PDT
Gumbee65 says:
@Panthor, Thanks for the feedback.

I look back to the previous discussion at this point and how much things have changed. In just two years! Amazing.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 15, 2011 10:37:21 PM PDT
I know! :)

Posted on Jun 15, 2011 10:58:48 PM PDT
Gumbee65 says:
@JB,

What do you think of this quote by Moses Maimonides?

"Similarly with regard to circumcision, one of the reasons for it is, in my opinion, the wish to bring about a decrease in sexual intercourse and a weakening of the organ in question, so that this activity be diminished and the organ be in as quiet a state as possible. It has been thought that circumcision perfects what is defective congenitally. This gave the possibility to everyone to raise an objection and to say: How can natural things be defective so that they need to be perfected from outside, all the more because we know how useful the foreskin is for that member? In fact this commandment has not been prescribed with a view to perfecting what is defective congenitally, but to perfecting what is defective morally. The bodily pain caused to that member is the real purpose of circumcision. None of the activities necessary for the preservation of the individual is harmed thereby, nor is procreation rendered impossible, but violent concupiscence and lust that goes beyond what is needed are diminished. The fact that circumcision weakens the faculty of sexual excitement and sometimes perhaps diminishes the pleasure is indubitable. For if at birth this member has been made to bleed and has had its covering taken away from it, it must indubitably be weakened. The Sages, may their memory be blessed, have explicitly stated: It is hard for a woman with whom an uncircumcised man has had sexual intercourse to separate from him. In my opinion this is the strongest of the reasons for circumcision."

Moses Maimonides (1135-1204), also known as the "Rambam", was a medieval Jewish rabbi, physician and philosopher. Reference http://www.cirp.org/library/cultural/maimonides/

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 16, 2011 2:50:02 AM PDT
@R. Sutton,

>>Then ask yourself: would an adult male, with no medical issues, choose to be circumcised ?
The answer is NO, so why do it now ?<<

It's quite common for adult males, with no medical issues, to have a circumcision. In fact, there are urology practices that do nothing but adult circumcisions.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 16, 2011 3:14:51 AM PDT
Gumby,

Thank you for giving be a link to the entire article. The last link was to the abstract and I'm not really one to pay $25 for the entire text. :)

I agree that the abstact and article are interesting though some parts are anecdotal and labeled as such. W/o a doubt every experience we have is recorded in the brain, but I don't take seriously some of the anecdotal "evidence" quoted in the study.
All in all I agree with the conclusions of the study.

However, what I really would like to know is what do you disagree with in MY comment?

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 16, 2011 3:24:10 AM PDT
Gumbee,

<<What do you think of this quote by Moses Maimonides?>>

I think it is a very interesting anecdotal statement.

Posted on Jun 16, 2011 9:45:15 AM PDT
If this issue (circumcision) is a myth of epic proportions, how many other myths handed down as "necessary tradition" are we still believing today? How many other myths have we been fed by our care takers since childhood? This practice and many others are why many are held back in their pursuit of happiness. Yes, I believe these myths are what contribute to the overall negative impact of critical thinking and the exercise of free will many still struggle with to this day. It is that impactful and why many must resort to therapy of various kinds in order to cope with life. That is my strong opinion.

Posted on Jun 16, 2011 10:30:13 AM PDT
@ Panthor:

Correct you are.

Posted on Jun 16, 2011 10:31:49 AM PDT
I think this Boyle/Svoboda article was an Amicus Brief for the court. Not sure which case. Maybe the Stowell case.

Posted on Jun 16, 2011 10:40:19 AM PDT
@ Gumbee:

The quote comes from his "Guide to the Perplexed." He further states that the reason to circumcise when the child is so young, in this case 8 days, is because the parents have not bonded with the child as a fully separate human being.

In his culture the male child is not named until circumcised because he is not fully human until then. Female neonates are named.

The psychology is connected to still being a part of the mother's body.
OK: That's what the reasoning is and this is NOT a discussion on abortion which someone tried to bring in on the other forum.

Posted on Jun 16, 2011 10:51:13 AM PDT
@DaveSun:

Yep. Right at the heart of the topic. The piece that holds the ornament to where it hangs from. All else is intrigue concentrated on the ornament's glitter.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 16, 2011 1:19:17 PM PDT
@ Dr.B and Sutton: "Adult circumcisions" not medical issues.

True. They are more likely than not relationship issues as a trade-off for sex.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 16, 2011 6:33:26 PM PDT
Gumbee65 says:
JB,

You said, "But I do believe there is truth in my thoughts. It's not that your statements aren't true but they aren't given much credence by the man on the street because you're statements are not within the realm of their their experience. "
"However, what I really would like to know is what do you disagree with in MY comment?

I do disagree with your comment. "the man on the street", has visited this forum many times and as we just noted, the types of comments he is leaving is revealing an evolution on the topic. Which, of course is fantastic.

Posted on Jun 16, 2011 6:50:44 PM PDT
My husband an step-son were uncircumcised as babies. My step-son needed to be circumcised at 16 years of age. What a painful experience! My husband needed to be circumcised as an adult. Even more painful. This was NOT due to failure to keep clean, but recurring infections. I think it is much easier to circumcise babies than grown men.
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Discussion in:  Health forum
Participants:  446
Total posts:  3949
Initial post:  Jun 10, 2011
Latest post:  6 days ago

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