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Customer Discussions > Historical Fiction forum

Quality (UNbiased) 1066 fiction?


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Showing 1-25 of 34 posts in this discussion
Initial post: May 2, 2012 6:15:44 PM PDT
I'm looking for quality fiction centering somewhere around 1066. What I don't want is slant. A great many of the English are really weird about the anti-William thing and that grows tiresome. No offense to them of course (naturally they are free to dislike whomever they wish), but I'm just not interested in that.

I simply want a good read without a bunch of bashing. I'm more interested in the people of the day rather than the politics that was involved.

Any suggestions are appreciated!

In reply to an earlier post on May 2, 2012 6:31:06 PM PDT
Misfit says:
There is Helen Hollick's I Am the Chosen King, although her sympathies do lie with Harold. Valerie Anand's Gildenford trilogy might suit, but they are rather hard to find. Mary Lide wrote a book about William (the name escapes me), but it was fairly *meh*. Georgette Heyer wrote about William, but I never made it past page 100. Dry as a Plaidy.

In reply to an earlier post on May 5, 2012 5:14:14 PM PDT
Well, unbiased is difficult. Most of the books that I have read about 1066 are written by British authors and they carry a certain point of view. I do have a few suggestions. Carol Wensby-Scott wrote a book Proud Conquest which focuses on Matilde, William's wife. Because of this focus, it presents William in a more favorable light. Jean Plaidy and Hilda Lewis have both written books about Matilde, however I must agree with Misfit about Plaidy in particular - way too dry. These people were bold and passionate in an age where brute force was the norm, they need, even deserve more than dry and I am sorry Plaidy fans, boring.

I also would recommend a series of books by George Shipway. The Paladin, Knight in Anarchy and Wolf Time. I have not read the last book in this series titled Free Lance. These books are set in both England and Normandy immediately following the Conquest. They are really excellent, great stories, great history.

Sarah Pernell's Gift & the Promise was a book that I loved. It is set in 1066 and it tells the story of more ordinary people trying to live with the enormous adjustments of the Conquest. It also has a heartrending description of the Harrying of the North. I highly recommend this book.

I could not agree more with Misfit's recommendation of Valerie Anand's Gildenford trilogy. They are slanted towards Harold, however they are each such wonderful books that it would be a shame to dismiss them. They are hard to find and can be expensive to buy, so you might try your library. I cannot imagine that any effort you put into finding them will be considered wasted after reading them!

Best wishes in your search for great reads about this time period. It is certainly a personal favorite of mine. If you find something splendid, come back and let us know.

Mary Beth

Posted on May 8, 2012 7:04:19 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 23, 2012 10:52:56 AM PDT
Happyone says:
While Parke Godwin's Sherwood is not specifically about the conquest, Godwin moves the Robin Hood legend forward in time to the immediate post conquest era. In this version of the legend, Robin is a disposed Saxon Theign and comes to interact with William. I think he portrays his Norman characters fairly sympathically, including William, his wife and the Sheriff of Nottingham . I really enjoyed it and thought it was a worthwhile read.
He also wrote a sequel Robin and the King that is set during the later stages of William reign and continues into William Rufus' reign. I didn't think it was quite as good as Sherwood, but worth the read never the less

In reply to an earlier post on May 21, 2012 1:15:04 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 21, 2012 1:16:13 AM PDT
Selene says:
Parke Godwin also wrote a novel about Harold called Lord of Sunset which I enjoyed. It's rather unusual because it's told from multiple points of view by Harold, Edith,Swanneck, other Godwinsson family members and King Edward the Confessor.

I'd also recommend a book about William by John Wingate, called William the Conqueror
Merlin Douglas Larsen's Jackals In Iron is another good read from the Norman POV.

For an overview of English history over the 70 years leading up to the Norman Conquest, Ray Bryant's Warriors of the Dragon Gold

In reply to an earlier post on May 28, 2012 1:34:21 PM PDT
J. Nelson says:
An older book, but still one of the best is THE GOLDEN WARRIOR by Hope Muntz. Superb language and storytelling, it includes a dispassionate and political explanation of Harold's oath of fealty to William.

Posted on May 29, 2012 7:33:53 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 29, 2012 7:35:58 PM PDT
zahak says:
Tim Severin's VIKING: KING'S MAN is a possibility. This is volume 3 of Severin's "Viking Trilogy" and brings our protagonist from the courts of Byzantium to Normandy for the preparation of William's invasion and then on to the invasion itself. Severin's only bias is his nostalgia for the passing of the pagan, heroic world. He has nothing against William other than as an embodiment of a new age.

Severin, also, is notable for staging reenactments of epic sea voyages (Jason and the Argonauts, Odysseus, Sindbad, St. Brendan, among others) and writing pretty wonderful books recounting the process of building and then sailing the historically correct boats attempting to follow the routes of the storied voyages.

Posted on May 30, 2012 6:41:53 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 30, 2012 6:50:00 AM PDT
Choose Hope Muntz' The Golden Warrior Of those I've read so far, none's better. And even if one hasn't read every offering out there on the subject, Muntz' novel is so powerfully written and so intense in its characterizations, voice and adherence to the record, while still being a moving portrayal of human conflict of nothing less than Shakespearian quality, as to be worth it when weighed against literature of all types and periods.

The problem is that it seems to be out of print so you'd have to buy a used copy! For the record, I discovered this book in the seventies (in a remaindered paperback edition from Scribners) and loved it so much I went back and bought all the other remaindered copies. Later on I used to hunt through used bookstores and managed to scoop up half a dozen used hard cover versions. But I have long since given most of my copies away to friends who I thought might appreciate the novel. Because it's written in a stark, saga-like prose, it may not appeal to all tastes. But I found that reading the tale as presented through a saga voice adds to the richness of the experience. But you have to be comfortable (or learn to become comfortable) with that kind of writing.

SWM

Posted on Jun 1, 2012 6:49:13 PM PDT
This is a little bit off-topic, but I just read that the Domesday book, which was written on vellum (ordered by William as a survey of his new realm and completed in the 1080's) had a 900th anniversary copy made on laser disc...except you can't find a laser disc player anymore! You still can read the vellum copy though!

Leonardo Noto

Posted on Jun 4, 2012 2:07:29 PM PDT
SweeDaRo says:
Stuart, I am curious what you mean by 'saga-like prose' and 'saga voice'. Can you describe what this means or give examples of other writers/books that you would also say have this same writing style?

Leonardo, it is rather amusing to think we can read that vellum copy today but would have a great deal of difficulty viewing a modern copy on now-defunct modern technology.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 4, 2012 4:04:01 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jun 10, 2012 6:30:54 AM PDT
Well, there are a number of different eras in which translations were done. (I am speaking of saga-like prose in English by the way, not Old Norse.)

In the 19th century the translations tended to have a heavy archaic ring to them, probably anachronistic and not genuinely true to how they read in the original. In the twentieth century, saga translations changed as translators aimed to get much closer to the original, often fairly plain, prosaic sounding language in which, presumably, the original sagas were written (for those conversant with Old Norse, of course). Hope Muntz wrote her book in the middle of the twentieth century, well after the glory days of Victorian translations, so her text is much plainer, closer to the original. But it still affects a high style which gives it a certain resonance, a certain timbre consistent with the early medieval English mindset and in keeping with the subject matter of clashing kings and princes. It smacks as much of the Anglo-Saxon Chronicles as of the Icelandic Sagas which were written down a few hundred years after the Chronicles.

For a fine emulation of the Victorian rendering of the saga voice I rather like H. Rider Haggard's Saga of Eric Brighteyes. But it is very much a romance, an adventure with lots of action and a breakneck pace though it partakes of the classic saga motifs. It's also a kind of fantasy so if that's not your thing you might not like it. In the early twentieth century there is E. R. Eddison's Styrbiorn the Strong. Unlike Haggard's made-up tale, Eddisson set out to recreate a saga that never was based on real people, echoes of whom are to be found in many of the actual sagas themselves. Styrbiorn is the lad who went a-viking after his uncle, the Swedish King, urged him to do it but who, seeking his share of the throne ultimately finds himself in opposition to that same king who would go down in history as King Eric the Victorious. Eddison's prose is rich and heavy and ornate in the Victorian way and still it feels true to the old saga form from which it is derived.

Note that most (but not all) of the actual sagas are of the "Family" type. That is, they tell the tale of ordinary people (albeit some of noble blood) who settled Iceland from Norway and their subsequent generations. While there certainly are some kings' sagas (many found in Heimskringla, Snorri Sturlasson's "Orb of the World" which is also known as the Norse Book of Kings), the really great Icelandic works are about more ordinary folk. The best of them (generally agreed upon, and I agree) is Njal's Saga (or The Saga of Burnt Njal) which tells the story of a decades long feud between a number of Icelandic families built around the sage Njal who, unlike most of his fellow Icelanders has a penchant for peace making, though he is not always successful (and thereby lies his tale).

Muntz' captured the best of this "voice" I think with her simple, straightforward sentences that yet reflect the highborn people she affects to write about in The Golden Warrior. Certainly, on my view at least, there is no more moving tale than hers. I've read it numerous times, just to enjoy the prose and the richly motivated characters she brings to life, and it has never failed to bring tears to my eyes by the end. It's a tragedy in the old sense, right up there with Shakespeare's best in my humble opinion.

For a more modern excursion into the saga voice, Canadian author Jeff Janoda penned a very, very fine saga tale a few years back. He titled it Saga, by the way, an unfortunate choice for such a book in my opinion given the fine job he does of bringing one of the stories buried in Eyrbyggja Saga to life in that excellent novel. It's not a perfect saga voice though, because he really wrote it to work as a modern novel, but there is enough of the echoes of saga writing in it to capture and evoke that older voice. And it's a moving story besides.

Personally, I'm a sucker for the saga voice. I love the spare prose, the terse (often humorous asides), the lightly limned descriptions of people and places, the inaccessibility of the characters' interior worlds to us, which can only be accessed by observing them in action and by listening to their words. The sagas were originally oral tales, mostly about real people, written down after many retellings in a way that preserved the oral tradition. This poses some difficulties for modern readers who are looking for realistic dialogue (saga dialogue has a formal sense to it) and interiority in their characters, and who find the often extensive geneaologies of the characters irritating, or the failure to provide extensive description problematic. But if you like the flow and rhythm of the oral tradition and the motifs of the saga world, then there is nothing like the saga voice to please you!

SWM

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 9, 2012 11:09:40 PM PDT
Mr. Mirsky,

This is obviously an area where you have deep knowledge. I have never read any sagas; could you recommend a course of, say, the first two or three that would be a good way to enter into these works? If there are translations that you consider to be better, I'd really appreciate it if you'd include that information as well.

Thanks.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 10, 2012 1:36:02 AM PDT
It would be interesting to see if Mr Mirsky agrees with me, but for the best introduction to the Sagas, you should try:

Laxdaela Saga (Penguin Classics)
Njal's Saga (Penguin Classics)

Njal's Saga is possibly the most famous of the Icelandic Sagas, but it is also long - in some ways, it's two sagas melded together. Laxdaela Saga is probably my favourite, and it is one of the saddest, as well. It's shorter than Njal, with a slightly easier storyline.

If you can get hold of a copy, then Rider Haggard's "Eric Brighteyes" is fabulous, although it is a 19th century pastiche of the Sagas.

Posted on Jun 10, 2012 6:30:00 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jul 5, 2012 8:42:47 PM PDT
I agree about Laxdaela and Njal's. Both are very fine works though I think Njal's Saga the stronger and more resonant. Laxdaela Saga is basically the tale of one woman (after the usual early history of the families) who marries four times in turbulent circumstances and finds herself at the center of a series of feuds largely because of it. The ending is particularly poignant when, in her winter years her son, who has been instrumental in the later vendettas, tries to determine whether she really loved his father and she replies with one of the most poignant and subtle answers in literature. There is more unity in Laxdaela than is to be found in Njal though Njal is richer in events and characters and probably more powerful in the way the great feud, in which so many interesting individuals are burned alive, is finally brought to its conclusion. It's hard to forget Kari at the end, buffeted by a fierce storm, seeking shelter and the manner in which he finds it.

Other good sagas (though perhaps not quite so good!) are Egil's Saga (about the turbulent life of a brutal viking and renowned poet who lives until very old age and what becomes of him), Grettir's Saga (about a huge and turbulent man who cannot accommodate himself to the requirements of society and, becoming one of the longest lived outlaws in Icelandic history, must overcome the loneliness and ghosts of such an isolated life), Eyrbyggja Saga (which chronicles the early settlement of Iceland around several strong personalities including the famously clever Snorri the Priest, a chieftain renowned for his shrewdness and capacities for realpolitik), and Ornkeyinga Saga (which tells of the generations of the earls of Orkney including the things that drove them and the deeds they performed).

I'm also rather fond of Heimskringla (the Orb of the World) which is a series of sagas that chronicle the kings of Norway from Halfdan the Black's time through Harald Fairhair and Olaf the Saint to Harald Hardrada (meaning "hard counsel" or "ruthless") to the later kings in the wake of Hardrada's failure to seize England from his namesake, Harold Godwinsson, in 1066 just before that Harold would succumb to William Bastard at Hastings (bringing us full circle to the subject of this thread I guess).

SWM

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 10, 2012 8:59:50 AM PDT
I loved Grettir's Saga, as well!

I wrote my MA thesis on the Sagas, and forced myself to read every single one of the family sagas in preparation. That was a mammoth undertaking, as I'm sure you will agree! Some of the shorter and less well-known are actually among my favourites, but for someone coming to them "fresh" I felt that Laxdaela and Njal were probably to most accessible (and the easiest to find, although Penguin do have Eyrbyggja in their library.

Actually, it's probably worth mentioning the Vinland Sagas, as well ...

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 10, 2012 9:20:52 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jul 5, 2012 8:46:09 PM PDT
The Vinland sagas aren't on the same scale or quality. But then they just seem to be fragments rather than full blown sagas. A comparatively late (and pretty brief) saga I rather liked is the Saga of the Droplaugarssons. Penguin has an edition which combines that one with Fljotsdala Saga. There's also the Saga of the Jomsvikings. But now we're moving away from the family sagas I suppose.

Have you read Gisli's Saga? The edition I read seemed a little awkward though the original narrative itself may be at fault. It seems to be less well crafted in certain ways than many of the others but it's an interesting psychological tale. Like Grettir's Saga (which is more well formed as a narrative), it's the story of an outlaw on the run in old Iceland. While Grettir ends up holed up on a northern island, surviving because of his formidable prowess as a fighter until he ultimately makes a mistake arising from his sense of increasing loneliness, Gisli gets pulled into a feud in a dispute with his brother-in-law and spends his time fleeing his enemies by rushing from one place to another while being tormented by a "dream woman" until he is finally betrayed, run down because he seems to have grown tired of running and hiding.

The sagas are an under-appreciated literary genre for some reason. I can't quite figure out why though since many of them (the bulk, I think) are readily available to the broader reading public. Perhaps it's the fact that they are of generally uneven craft and have certain idiosyncrasies which modern readers aren't entirely comfortable with! However, Hope Muntz, in The Golden Warrior, successfully evoked the whole saga tone and spirit I think and made it work for an historical novel.

Jeff Janoda did it, too, with his Saga: A Novel of Medieval Iceland, though some others have not been as successful. I recall Gunnar's Daughter by Sigrid Undset which is a very nicely done tale of medieval date rape and its aftermath, but Undset, who kept the saga tone and voice throughout lost it at the end, I think, when she fell into Greek tragedy instead of the typically understated nuanced closure which characterizes the best of the sagas.

SWM

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 10, 2012 11:31:52 AM PDT
I think I have read Gisli's Saga - although, to be honest, they do often end up a bit of a blur, and I haven't read any of them for quite some time.

I agree with your suggestions as to why the sagas are often under-appreciated. A shame, though, because they are such a rich source.

I haven't read any more modern pastiches - Eric Brighteyes and Hrolf Kraki's Saga are the only saga-style but not original ones that I've read. Well, I'm not counting writers like Robert Low or Tim Severin, here, because they are more typical Viking tales, rather than Sagas. I shall have to look out for those you mention.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 10, 2012 11:49:50 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jun 10, 2012 11:51:41 AM PDT
Another good one, if you like "high language," is E. R. Eddison's Styrbiorn the Strong. He also translated Egil's Saga by the way though I never read his translation. Yes, Low and Severin are not writing sagas in the old sense but, as you say, viking tales which have a relationship to the sagas but are really just modern novels in the adventure milieu. I love adventure, myself, but I like the kind of authenticity you get from evoking the actual language of the period, too. Modern novels that cover older periods don't appeal to me as much.

One you might like to try, though it's a fantasy and may not suit you, is Poul Anderson's The Broken Sword. It very much partakes of the feel and dynamic of the old Norse world and its end is suitably bleak (picking up a theme from Volsungasaga by the way). Anderson was pretty good though I didn't much care for his Mother of Kings (based on the tale of Eric Bloody Axe -- a son of King Harald Fairhair -- and his mother, Harald's queen). I did like his War of the Gods which seemed to be adapted from Saxo Grammaticus' Gesta Danorum (Deeds of the Danes) which is not a saga (being written in Latin in a more clerkly way) but which touches on the same era and people. War of the Gods does not appear to have resonated as well as some of the others with aficionados of the Norse era though. I think it's overlooked for that.

SWM

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 10, 2012 11:59:15 AM PDT
Thanks - more books to look out for!

I'll look out for the Poul Anderson book - I do read fantasy, so that's fine by me - wasn't it Anderson who wrote "Hrolf Kraki's Saga" as well?

Oddly enough (going back to the source material) I haven't ever read Saxo Grammaticus. I keep meaning to look round for a copy, but it's rather gone off my radar. I'm glad you've reminded me of it.

I read a lot of historical fiction and I know what you mean about evoking the language of the period. I far prefer those that make at least some attempt to *sound* right. I don't mind those that write in a more contemporary style (Simon Scarrow, for example) but they fit into a different "class" of historical fiction, for me.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 10, 2012 12:09:31 PM PDT
Yes, Anderson wrote Hrolf Kraki's Saga (or, better, translated and beefed it up as there is a Penguin translation of it which, as I recall is almost the same). Anderson also wrote a trilogy about Harald Hardrada (The Last Viking) but I have never managed to find it anywhere. I once corresponded briefly with Anderson shortly before he died while he was still working on Mother of Kings and asked him how I could find the Hardrada trilogy but he wasn't very helpful. He just said it was out of print and I should keep looking. To date I've never found it anywhere and I am no longer all that interested in vikings per se.

Besides, I don't think any of these viking novels can hold a candle to Hope Muntz' saga of Harold and William, The Golden Warrior, which is not an adventure but a serious novel about real people immersed in real events. That she used a saga voice to tell her tale really enhances it for me because it's like you're stepping into that world and really seeing and hearing real people engaged in actual events.

There has been some talk on and off of filming that novel but it would be a major undertaking. The last effort I heard about was from a Scottish director but so far no news. If it were done it would probably require treatment more like HBO's Game of Thrones than via a single big screen treatment. The story is just too grand to do justice to it any other way, in my opinion.

SWM

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 10, 2012 12:14:12 PM PDT
I've heard of "The Last Viking" but never really looked for it. I have a list of books that I take with me whenever I get near a second-hand bookshop, so I shall have to add that to the list!

But never heard of Hope Muntz. It seems there's yet another to add to the list!

So many books, so little time! :(

Posted on Jun 10, 2012 3:30:32 PM PDT
SweeDaRo says:
What a detailed description and insight into saga prose, as well as many recommendations. I am curious is the sage prose chiefly of the Viking Icelandic cultures? Or is it found from other countries as well? When I think of sparse prose, I think of Asian, mainly Chinese with little description or inner dialogue but then it uses lots of allusion and symbolism, often breaking into poetry or haiku heavily laden with symbolism.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 10, 2012 4:33:30 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jun 11, 2012 4:33:23 AM PDT
I think it's an artifact of a certain kind of culture, namely one rooted in oral tradition. Stories that depended, for their survival, on word of mouth tend to become somewhat general (lose a lot of the specificity we're accustomed to in our modern written literature) and to focus on behavior and dialog (rather than interior monologues or characters' points of view). Poetry, being even older in the oral tradition (and having developed at least partly to facilitate recollection -- it being easier to pass on rhymes and rhythms or, as in a case like the Norse tradition, alliteration) was often a significant part of the remembered tales. The sagas make substantial use of poetic refrains, sometimes actually seeming to tell a story that diverges from the narrative in which the verses are embedded, suggesting that they are part of an older and only partly remembered tradition.

Chinese and Japanese culture, of course, have vey different traditions. By the way, there is a very fine historical novel set in old medieval China called Taming Poison Dragons by British author Tim Murgatroyd. He does a bang up job of recreating the thought processes and milieu of that time and place, the novel reading as if it were a translation of a very old account preserved from the period. It's rich in subtlety and nuance and remarkably vivid. Since the main protagonist, a disgraced court official, is also a poet and a bit of a drinker who must rise to the occasion with the coming of a warlord to threaten his own estate and the village that depends on him, we get plenty of interesting perspective as well as bits of poetry in the way a genuine old work of the period might have preserved it.

On the Japanese side, I personally like Eiji Yoshikawa's Musashi (the story of Miyamoto Musashi, Japan's legendary swordsman) as well as The Heike Story which Yoshikawa wrote to chronicle the rise to power of the Minamoto Shogunate. But this thread is about England and 1066 so I fear we've gone far afield here. Suffice it to say that I still think Muntz' The Golden Warrior is the best all around historical novel I've read. It does have some flaws however. I think Muntz painted Harold Godwinsson as too good for the man who must really have lived in that time and took the English throne.

Although Muntz let's us glimpse Harold's ambition it's never fully displayed and so we're forced to guess at it from the nature of the guilt with which he is apparently wracked as things come to a head and he is finally forced into a fight with William before he's ready (on Muntz' account). She did extensive research on the Battle of Hastings in 1066 before writing this novel which, as far as I can tell was her only one.

But ah, what a book!

Posted on Jun 10, 2012 10:31:53 PM PDT
Stuart Mirsky and Marcus Pailing - thank you both for the suggestions. I've been a devoted reader of (nonfiction) history as well as historical fiction for over 30 years, and had never had much interest in the world of the sagas, Vikings, etc. That's changing now, so your recommendations will be put to good use.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 11, 2012 11:19:10 AM PDT
Glad we could help - please do try out one or two of the sagas; I'm sure you will find it a worthwhile excursion! :-)
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