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Customer Discussions > History forum

Can liberal American Jews still support Modern Israel? - the country has changed and is not what you think it is anymore.


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Showing 126-150 of 1000 posts in this discussion
In reply to an earlier post on Nov 18, 2011 2:12:14 PM PST
Diva,

Notice that Shrieker can't even spell his name right! :)

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 18, 2011 2:12:44 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Nov 18, 2011 2:16:19 PM PST
L. King says:
DarthRad's purpose is not to enlighten, it's to endarken. As a group Russian Jews tend to be highly educated. He also makes the same mistake that the British made with Jewish refugees from Nazi Germany when they placed them in prison camps with Germans and even Nazis. They assumed that because they were German they were the enemy.

Russian Jews living in Israel are the refugees, not the commissars they were fleeing from. In his rush to judgement he conflates the two.

DarthRad tries to ignite his own prejudices in others. As a liberal who marched and campaigned for freedom for Soviet Jews, I feel it is my duty to point that out.

Posted on Nov 19, 2011 12:27:17 AM PST
[Deleted by Amazon on Nov 19, 2011 3:40:42 PM PST]

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 19, 2011 1:06:16 AM PST
The OP greatly overstates the situation in stating, "Please note that this thread ...is only about what modern Israel has turned into."

In fact, from the article cited, a spokesperson states that it is the modern segment of the population that is spreading, so Israel has not turned into anything close to a theocracy.

"Women walk down the street as though they are at the beach," said Rabbi Shmuel Pappenheim, a spokesman and leader for an umbrella group of ultra-Orthodox factions. "If in the past this was typical only of Tel Aviv, today it has reached Jerusalem as well. They encroach on our way of life, prompting our people to impose new restrictions, deepen separation and erect higher barriers to keep it away."

Posted on Nov 19, 2011 3:11:09 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Nov 19, 2011 7:35:16 PM PST
DarthRad says:
C. Renken,

"Should Israeli Jews improve their ties to liberal Jewish groups in the US which are dying out, or the more vibrant Conservative/Orthodox communities which are stable or growing in numbers? In the short term, they need to reach out to ALL US Jewish groups. Whether they should try to appease the US liberal Jews to their point (in their view) of making dangerous concessions, is another question.
If Jews want to influence Israel directly, they should live there. If many liberal Jews left Israel because of the Oslo breakdown in 2000, that is indeed a sad thing for their cause. (I think even more Jews left Israel after the 1973 debacle, IMHO.) Meanwhile, their Russian, Orthodox, and/or Zionist compatriots moved there and became "fruitful and multiplied." No wonder Israel has moved back to the "right" (although not back to the Shamir rhetoric that the West Bank was part of Israel). It's an issue of numbers and bodies."

_________________

In the 1990's one of my former partners, a man who happened to be born Jewish (he was not observant, never went to Temple during the time I knew him, and was married to a nice shiksa) made this comment to me one day - "Gee, it seems like all the reasonable Jews who want to make peace are leaving Israel and meanwhile we keep sending all the radical Jews from America to Israel!"

He was, of course thinking of Rabbi Meir Kahane, an American Jew born in Brooklyn who founded the Jewish Defense League and later went to Israel in 1971 and founded the Kach Party. He was thinking of the stream of American Jews who were moving to Israel just to settle in the most contested areas - the Jewish settlements of the Occupied Territories.

Kahane's Kach Party was the original ultra-nationalist, ultra-right wing, ultra-Orthodox political organization which advocated the expulsion of Arabs from both Israel and the Occupied Territories, revoking Israeli citizenship for non-Jews, and banning Jewish-Gentile marriages and sexual relations. Kach was also accused of planning attacks against Palestinians in retaliation for the killing of Israeli settlers. Kahane was assassinated in 1990 in New York City by an Egytian-American later convicted for involvement in the 1993 World-Trade Center bombing.

So C. Renken, I agree with you about what has been going on with why Israel has become so right-wing in its politics. The liberals of Israel have largely left and been replaced by people who have strongly Zionist, right wing, and/or ultra-Orthodox views about Israel. This entire thread has been about how this process came about during the last twenty years.

At the same time, what I have also been trying to point out is that American politics have changed, largely as a result of George Bush Jr. There is a lot of evidence that American Jewish support for the Democratic Party is less strong than before as a result of the Republican Party's efforts to make Israel a wedge issue. More American Jews vote for Republican Party candidates (and contribute money) than ever before, even though the majority of American Jews still vote for Democrats. Eric Cantor, Republican congressman from Virginia, is probably the prototype of this change in Jewish American politics.

Israel, the recruiters for aliyah, and the Israel Lobby itself continue to engage with liberal American Jews, understanding their importance in the politics of America, understanding their influence in Hollywood, the entertainment industry, in the news media.

It is not clear how much the new right-wing Israel has alienated the older and more established generation of liberal American Jews. Recent surveys show that almost certainly, among the younger generation of American Jews, support for Israel has declined significantly, and so there is a trend beginning in the American Jewish community. This is something that has set off both alarms and the usual denials in the Israel Lobby.

Liberal American Jews are not dying out - they are just assimilating and disappearing into the mainstream American population. My ex-partner's three children all married non-Jews - his children were not officially Jews anyway because of their mother. During the 1990's, when they were in college, they explored their Jewish heritage at a time when it was cool to be a Jew in most U.S. colleges. I don't think they are doing that anymore. Israel has become uncool on most U.S. college campuses, and being excessively Jewish is not so cool anymore. Instead, American Jews are turning to Buddhism in enough numbers that the mix has become known as "JewBu" .

Meanwhile, the ultra-Orthodox in the U.S. are neither assimilating nor making friends with their American neighbors. Is there a theme here about the ultra-Orthodox? Here's a great book about what happened in one small Iowa town that was essentially taken over by Lubavitcher ultra-Orthodox Jews:

Postville: A Clash of Cultures in Heartland America

Rachel made a comment earlier about the Amish being well accepted in America. The ultra-Orthodox in America are most definitely NOT the Amish. The Amish get along fine with their neighbors, and don't impose their views or rules on their non-Amish neighbors. In fact they do not even try to impose their views on their own children unless they want to remain Amish. Children in their teenage years are allowed to go through a "Wilding" year, and experience the outside world to the fullest. Then they are given a choice, to leave the Amish community to live in this outside world, or to return, and obey its rules.

And that, ultimately is why American values clash with ultra-Orthodox values - America is all about having a responsible freedom of choice, and about respecting other peoples' choices. At this point, all but the most die-hard right wing and/or Orthodox American Jews would find it hard to live in the Israel of today.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 19, 2011 3:13:13 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Nov 19, 2011 3:31:17 AM PST
JayWhite says:
To Darth Hitler;
You are delusional. Israel is no way controlled by the ex-Soviet Mafia. Israel is more of a democracy than the US. Your post is full absurd misstatements. You obvious hate Jews and because it isn't PC to come out and give your real opinion, you cowardly attack Israel with delusional statements just like other antisemites. It is more acceptable to dump on a small country which has been the victim of 50 years of continuous war waged against it by the Muslim supremacists who want to take over the entire world and convert everyone to Islam which is the most violent religion in the world. To show how insane your statements are , what country allows members of their legislative branch to actively collude with groups whose only goal is destruction of that country? Israel allows Arabs who actively work with Hamas and other Muslim supremacist terrorists to sit in the country's legislature as elected representatives . Your statement about dual allegiance reveals the depth of your hatred. Do you have a problem with American citizens born in the US whose family came from Central America or Mexico refer to Mexico or other foreign countries as " My country"? Probably not because your agenda is Jew hatred.

Posted on Nov 19, 2011 3:46:54 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Nov 19, 2011 3:53:45 AM PST
DarthRad says:
JayWhite,

I was a huge fan of Israel when I was a kid. The self-sufficient Israel of the kibbutzes and European socialist ideals. The Israel that did not take $3 billion in military support from the U.S. and yet was still able to fight off its Arab neighbors. Yeah, I really thought that was a great country.

I am not a fan of the current version of Israel. Are you?

Are you an American citizen? If so, do you love Israel more than America? Then you really should make aliyah and move to Israel. It would be good for America if you did that. I am not sure if Israel needs another right winger in their politics like you, but they could certainly use more cannon fodder in the IDF, since the ultra-Orthodox refuse to do that job.

Yes, I get nauseous at the Mexican Americans who wave Los Tricolores here in America. If they are American citizens, they have no right to do that. However, very few if any Mexican Americans that I know of who are American citizens would do that. Most of the Mexican American citizens are every bit as upset about illegal immigration as white Americans. As far as I can tell, the Mexicans who do the Los Tricolores flag waving and all that Mexican patriotism thing are probably all illegals or otherwise not citizens.

As to your comments about Arabs legislators in the Knesset who work with Hamas, would you care to back up that statement with some hard facts, preferrably a reference from a mainstream Israeli news source?

Or are you just doing the usual right-wing ultra-nationalist pro-Israel thing of bashing anybody (including liberal Israelis and Jews and perfectly loyal Israeli Arab citizens) and making libelous and false charges, and the usual labeling of anybody who criticizes Israel as an anti-Semite?

Ho-hum. Try something different for a change.

Haven't you figured it out yet? It's people like you who have changed the image of Israel from the warm and fuzzy country of hard working underdogs that every American could love into the harsh, nasty bunch of ultra-nationalists that have alienated just about every friend that Israel once had. And you right wingers keep talking about Israel's international "P.R. problem".

Guess what - YOU ARE ISRAEL's "P.R. PROBLEM".

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 19, 2011 9:47:58 AM PST
Diva says:
Darth is not new on these forums, merely a new name.

Just blowing empty bubbles. Instead of smearing the only progressive democracy in the Mid East, he should lead the riots against the murderous regime in Syria.
Except that couch "warriors" don't have the guts, they much rather mouth off from their mother's basement, where it's safe.

Posted on Nov 19, 2011 1:14:07 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Nov 19, 2011 4:10:22 PM PST
Mikeber says:
Israel has changed, but so did the US. The American Jewish communities of today are not those of the 1950, when many members still had numbers on their arms. A large portion of today Jews are assimilated, being "American" more then anything. It is only natural that those who feel strongly about Israel, come from religious circles. Secular Jews with strong ties to Israel and a deep involvement are fewer then ever.
But the question is not what the composition of Israel's population is in Nov 2011. That is like taking a single frame from a long movie and freezing it.
The real question is the legitimacy of a Jewish state, because the answer will effect generations to come. If a Jewish state is illegitimate (as many suggest today), it was illegitimate in the 50s (when the OP liked Israel) and in the future as well. If on the other hand, a Jewish state is justified and LEGITIMATE, its population in 2100 may be very different from the current one.
I always find that those who argue against Israel's policies (and actions) are in a deep disagreement with its very existence. The arguments are only justification to their fundamental belief. It has little to do with the current population as the OP suggests. Unfortunately, with the present polarization in the US political scene, Israel suffers since it is associated with right wing politics. But the idea of a Jewish state is not about right/left politics. It is apolitical and should stand on its own.
The left/right conflict gave birth to strange alliances. Such bizarre twist is the support Iran (a medieval theocracy) gets today from the US left.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 19, 2011 5:02:22 PM PST
"Iscah made a comment earlier about the Amish being well accepted in America."

I have no idea what you are talking about.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 19, 2011 5:12:26 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Nov 19, 2011 5:28:38 PM PST
patrick says:
I dont see or hear what you are seeing and hearing.
I do not see Israel baiting Iran into a fight,nowhere do I see any such thing in evidence at all, and you say you know what Netanyahu wants to do..I dont know what he wants to do, how do you?

Heres what I see...a continual barrage for years on ideological and religious lines literally demonising Israel. I see included in that a lot of apocalyptic visions painted about erasing the Zionist state...about a "post zionist world"...about a world without Zionism and the Jewish state.
some other stuff about how the Islamic world can afford to be half-destroyed taking Israel down, because the dead muslims will rise from the dead post-Zionism -anyway..other Shiite stuff about the return of the 12th Imam which is going to herald or follow this destruction of Zionism by Islam..
For years now, i hear this stuff. I also see a lot of Iranian interference trouble-making and war-making on Israel's borders, such as with Hamas, Hezbollah, and Syria.You might justify such things, I merely point out that its happening, that Iran shows up there on Israel's frontiers and in its territories.
Not only I see that, a few actual Arab regimes see it, and the Iranians and their poking and fiddling in the regions to its west annoys them too.
I dont hear all that much direct talk about how Iran will accomplish this desired erasure of Israel, admittedly, but I do see what many experts feel is an Iranian nuclear bomb program, and I admit that I paid little attention to the Iranian's denials...even b4 the latest developments.
Why does Iran even keep talking about Israel at all? Its not even a state on Israel's borders, in fact, no state which borders Israel even then borders Iran on the opposite side.
So why is it so big in their lives, that they keep poking at it with a stick in these ways?
Anyway, I see all of this biblical-style or rather Queranic-style rhetoric from Iran about this one small country far away that they literally believe to be 'Satan".
and I see people there working on getting the bomb.
I see Israel drawing a connection between the two things, between people who continually launch into bellicose tirades about 'little Satan" about a nation far away, and who work on city-killing weapons capable of reaching it.
The Israelis say that that isnt acceptable, and that it cant be permitted.Actually even some other countries say it isnt acceptable, some are said to be biased towards Israel, some do not seem generally pro-Israeli at all, such as Europe. I dont hear any threats of war or anything like that from the Israelis, perhaps there is sort of a threat of undefined acts of war or an undefined act of brief expeditionary force being implied or being merely left visible 'on the table".
When a madman wants to destroy you, (or even just often says that he does, that he is obsessed with you and that your destruction is something that he dreams about and desires, then you have to take words seriously too, he must to some extent be taken at his word)
and works to gain the means to do so,
then I too would deem that that isnt acceptable, and that I will strike at him to cut that hand off in time, if I have to.I wont just wait and see what happens when he gains the means, when the possibility is that he will not only destroy my nation and millions of its people, but sentence his own people to incalculable and irreparable destruction, death, and suffering as well, when I retaliate in kind.
thats what I see to all of this, I dont see a mad Netanyahu publicly threatening to destroy Iran.Im not sure where you read about that.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 19, 2011 5:16:57 PM PST
DarthRad, you are sort of unbelievable. It has been explained to you, very clearly, that Israeli society is going to take whatever form the Israelis want it to take, and that it is none of the concern of an American, such as yourself.

You do not have any right to impose your values on a foreign nation. The Amish don't impose their values on their neighbors-- isn't that what you like about them? How about you stop trying to impose your values on your very distant neighbors. You can't even go from one paragraph, to the next, without contradicting yourself! I guess that's why most of your posts are regurgitations, of things written by other people.

And the values of Orthodox Jews very rarely clash with the community that is hosting a Jewish community. Orthodox Jews are quiet, peaceful, and keep to themselves. If they clashed, so much, it would be very obvious, since Orthodox communities are almost all urban communities. The Amish are rural, and don't get much opportunity to clash.

By the way, did you know that Amish kids aren't allowed to go to school, after the 8th grade?

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 19, 2011 5:20:58 PM PST
jeffesq613 says:
No, you just have a reading comprehension problem. Show me where I called the innocent Palestinians "savages". I was referring to the savages that murder innocent Israelis or shoot rockets at towns full of innocent people with the hope of killing them and then hide themselves and their weapons among innocent Palestinians with the hope that when Israel attacks them and there is collateral damage, morons like you will accuse Israel of being no better than they are. BTW, their plan seems to be working.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 19, 2011 5:21:56 PM PST
jeffesq613 says:
What makes you think they change underwear?

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 19, 2011 5:24:47 PM PST
jeffesq613 says:
There was nothing "ultra-Orthodox" about Kahane. How do you expect to speak intelligently about these issues if you don't even have a clue who the parties are?

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 19, 2011 5:28:20 PM PST
jeffesq613 says:
Yes, you really admired Israel when it was a tiny underdog populated mostly by non-religious Jews with a very real possibility of being eliminated by its enemies, but as soon as its gets a little too religious and a little too powerful for your taste, you hate it. How very liberal of you.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 19, 2011 6:26:43 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Nov 19, 2011 6:27:31 PM PST
Rachel says:
Jeff:
Great question! Better than annie's! :-)

What is the point of discussing with this Dart when he has dearth of notions?
if this forum dies I will not regret it.

Rachel

Posted on Nov 19, 2011 7:29:54 PM PST
DarthRad says:
Mikeber,

"I always find that those who argue against Israel's policies (and actions) are in a deep disagreement with its very existence. The arguments are only justification to their fundamental belief."

You are just doing a variation of the "Israel is perfect and anybody who criticizes Israel is an anti-Semite or a self-hating Jew" theme.

Some of the strongest critics of the current Israeli government and policies have come from Israelis and Diaspora Jews who still passionately believe in the country and only wish to change it for the better.

Instead, these people get massive quantities of abuse and invective heaped upon them by the right wing ultra-nationalists who are currently in power in Israel and who have the full support of the majority of the current Israeli population of today.

Iscah earlier in this thread invited one such poster, Moderate 1, to make aliyah and make a difference. Why would anybody in their right mind who disagrees with the current situation in Israel want to move there and engage in debate with such abusive people? No, of course not.

So no wonder, as you say, "Secular Jews with strong ties to Israel and a deep involvement are fewer then ever."

Here's an article worth reading - about the changing attitudes of the younger generation of American Jews:

http://ideas.time.com/2011/09/29/why-fewer-young-american-jews-share-their-parents-view-of-israel/

______________

"The left/right conflict gave birth to strange alliances. Such bizarre twist is the support Iran (a medieval theocracy) gets today from the US left."

I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about here. I had to Google this topic to find even ONE American person who voiced support for the regime in Iran:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/tehranbureau/2010/04/irans-green-movement-the-basij-and-the-question-of-violence.html

What can I say except that you are unfairly smearing the "left" by categorizing somebody like this Matthew Cassel as a leftist. He is probably best described as somebody who is located politically neither in the left, right, or center, but in outer space. In that article, a more typical group of "leftist" organizations - Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, and the International Campaign for Human Rights in Iran are all described as heavily critical of Iran's regime.

Nobody in their right mind in the Western world supports Iran's regime.

___________________

"But the question is not what the composition of Israel's population is in Nov 2011. That is like taking a single frame from a long movie and freezing it.
The real question is the legitimacy of a Jewish state, because the answer will effect generations to come. If a Jewish state is illegitimate (as many suggest today), it was illegitimate in the 50s (when the OP liked Israel) and in the future as well. If on the other hand, a Jewish state is justified and LEGITIMATE, its population in 2100 may be very different from the current one."

I do not question the legitimacy of a Jewish state. And you are so right that Israel is about to change drastically, not in 90 years, but in a mere 20 years.

What will the Israel of the future look like?

Here's a clue - over HALF of the children attending first grade in Israel currently are Haredim and Arabs:

http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/strenger-than-fiction/what-must-israel-do-to-unify-its-splintered-society-1.260653

The Haredim, it should be pointed out, DO NOT EDUCATE THEIR CHILDREN properly, leaving out the study of modern science, math, and technology. The Arab children generally attend substandard schools that have similar deficiencies. Sounds bad for Israel's future in the world of high technology. Sounds horrible for Israel's future burdens as a welfare state.

Strenger, in his article writes rather hopefully about turning Israel into a fully integrated multi-cultural society, with the United States as his role model. Great idea! Except that is clearly not what Israel is doing right now, with all the talk of "loyalty oaths", "transferring" the Arabs, the full implementation of Ariel Sharon's policy of "disengagement" (a.k.a Apartheid) with the Palestinians, the Haredim pushing hard for more exclusive rights, and the Soviet Jews "disengaging" all on their own into their own communities.

Strenger correctly points out that the reason the U.S. has succeeded as a multi-cultural society is that: "The U.S. guaranteed every citizen the right to 'life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.' And anybody with enough will and drive could pursue the American Dream of prosperity and dignity. "

That would be wonderful for Israel if they could accomplish that. But Israel long ago turned sharply away from that path.

Posted on Nov 19, 2011 7:36:22 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Nov 19, 2011 7:36:43 PM PST
DarthRad says:
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Posted on Nov 19, 2011 8:42:57 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Nov 19, 2011 8:47:08 PM PST
patrick says:
"Nobody in their right mind in the Western world supports Iran's regime"

--------------
We had a poster right here on this board not long back, who was an American self-styled Iranophile, and he did support the regime, and praised Armindinajad.
I savaged 'Jad as a grinning runty Jerry Lewis caricature , a dangerous dribbling half-wit whose resume in the Revolutionary Guards
includes the US embassy hostages
and sponsoring the human-wave attacks by children during the Iraq/Iran war .(without getting around to leading from the front)

and that remains my assessment.
But this fellow was an apologist for Jad's threats and demonising of Israel,
also claiming that he is well-educated and man of reason, a town-planning engineer who redesigned and rebuilt Tehren.

There would seem to be some dichotomy of perceptions.
There are many in the West who would stand by and see Iran gain the Bomb...often first by denying that it is even occuring, then shrugging it off when it has.
Certainly under no circumstances would they endorse an intervention by force.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 19, 2011 9:14:32 PM PST
DarthRad says:
JayWhite,

Guess what - YOU ARE ISRAEL's "P.R. PROBLEM".
*********************************************
DathRad, I don't think you'll be invited to appear on a tourism poster either.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 20, 2011 8:12:48 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Nov 22, 2011 10:03:20 AM PST
C.R. Knight says:
A few points to Darth and others:
1. There is a big difference between Zionists and Ultras (the ultra-Orthodox) in Israel. A recent poll there in Israel says Jews are 8% Ultra, 17% Religious Zionists (but NOT Ultras; Kahane was ultra-nationalist, NOT ultra-Orthodox), and 55% Traditional (meaning they learn about and/or are interested in the Jewish culture, but do not practice as much as even our Modern Orthodox do -- more like our Conservative Jews). The other 20% call themselves secular ("Chiloni" in Hebrew), which still does not exclude a national feeling and/or a few Jewish customs.

2. Here and there, Jewry is like a fountain. The Ultras have the most kids, but many of these flow "down" to Conservative or more liberal levels in 2-3 generations. Spiritually, you are right: the Jewish "liberals" will not die out, but their ANCESTRY will become almost exclusively (90%) orthodox. Those of the Jewish Right's descendants that lose their Orthodoxy might be more protective of their autonomy as Jews than most "liberal" Jews are today (see point 4 below).

Biologically, however, TODAY'S liberal Jews will ALMOST "die out" due to a VERY low birth rate (less than 1.5/woman) combined with assimilation and intermarriage; only 10% of grandchildren of the inter-married say they are Jewish. In a few generations, there will be one of these people both alive AND Jewish for every 10-20 of their great-grandparents. (Other descendants will be living but not identify as Jews!) IMHO, the politics of tomorrow's "liberal" Jews will be centrist--not much different from the US (White) population at large. If this all happens, the Jewish population should stabilize at between 1% and 2% of our US population at large.

3. The political ancestry of most of TODAY'S American Jews is hard left--going back to the 1930s and earlier. My paternal grandfather was a Communist in the 1930s, LOL! That will change when most non-Orthodox Jews (say, the Millennial "Gen. Y" and future generations) have a more right-wing ancestry. People do not like turning against Mom's Party or Dad's Party because most of us hate that type of internal psychological conflict.

4. The growth of the Jewish Day School, especially among the non-Orthodox in America, might mean a pleasant demographic surprise by mid-century, keeping US Jews closer to the 2% mark after all. That would in turn give Israeli educators something to emulate! :-)

5. Darth alluded to Buddhism being attractive to many young Jews. Why? IMHO, among Eastern religions, it plays the same role that Judaism does for the West. Perhaps Buddhism (as practiced in the US) lacks the baggage that other faiths have, relatively speaking, of course. Another reason may be that some Eastern faiths are up to 10,000 years old and had already learned how to co-exist with the world long before the time of Abraham.

Having seen Judaism mocked at home, and Israel condemned in the media, it is little wonder that many college-age Jews are turning to an Eastern religion that is more "psychological" than cultural in nature.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 20, 2011 1:15:27 PM PST
Diva says:
Could anyone clue me why Israel's internal politics are any of Darth's business?

May be he should change venue and smear China's politics and see if they give a damn.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 20, 2011 3:36:30 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Nov 20, 2011 3:42:19 PM PST
Mikeber says:
DarthRad: "You are just doing a variation of the "Israel is perfect and anybody who criticizes Israel is an anti-Semite or a self-hating Jew" theme"
Mikeber: Not at all. You apparently misunderstood my post. Israel is not above criticism. However the criticism that says: "since there was a change in demographics and the current political leadership is leading in a wrong direction, its time for Israel be dissolved". My answer is that Israel's existence should be judged with future generations in mind, rather then by today's trends (which may change yet again).
DarthRad: "Some of the strongest critics of the current Israeli government and policies have come from Israelis and Diaspora Jews who still passionately believe in the country and only wish to change it for the better"
Mikeber: the current wave of anti Israeli declarations was triggered in part by Israeli academics, who are teaching in Europe and the US and are holding influential positions. They started movements like the boycott of Israeli universities in the UK.
DarthRad: "I do not question the legitimacy of a Jewish state"
Mikeber: But I think you are doing exactly that! As I mentioned, that is the basic disagreement. Unlike any other country, Israel's very existence is questioned daily (with all criticism on US policies, nobody suggests that America has no right to exist).
I am also not "smearing the left" as you claim. I am only reminding that the current left with its arguments is relatively new. (The old liberal/ left was about equal rights to blacks. Some went further to advocate communism). But Israel played no part in the old political confrontations between left/right. I find it odd that today, Israel is associated with extreme right wing politics yet at the same time (just read the forums) a country like Iran is protected by many on the left.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 20, 2011 6:00:32 PM PST
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