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Holocaust perspective


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Initial post: Feb 23, 2013 12:35:54 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Jul 5, 2013 12:01:24 PM PDT
Al says:
This thread is no longer about the Holocaust. This discussion has successfully been hijacked by religious loonies and people who want to discuss the ME.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 23, 2013 1:34:37 PM PST
S. Kessler says:
And you have a problem with this, why? What is your motive here?

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 23, 2013 2:20:06 PM PST
Al says:
My problem with it is that the Holocaust is used as a political weapon in our society: Angela Merkel went on a pilgrimage to Yad Vashem, for example, a visit which many I would think interpret as helpful to the Israeli government. The constant fixation on the supposed fate of one group of people during WW2 functions to give Merkel's people a guilt trip for their supposed actions in that conflict, and the people of countries that fought against the Third Reich a guilt trip for not fighting hard enough, soon enough.

Posted on Feb 23, 2013 3:41:20 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Mar 21, 2013 12:10:52 PM PDT
Rachel says:
Another forum opened to continue with the Holocaust and keeping hacking the issue on Jews.
It happened. It can't be erased, the evidence is there.
The Germans themselves have this evidence- and so does the rest of the world who wants to see the truth. No erasure......................
It is important that people commemorate this beyond responsibility occasion often- so that there should be further Genocides in this world; and those have happened anyway afterwards and before too.
Despite those reminders we still see that humanity doesn't learned.
Further more it is not only about Jews but about Gypsies, and Blacks ,and Poles, and Russians, Socialist and Communists................................. and the chums he had that he one day betrayed also.
Hitler went against everybody that would not be synchronized into his notions of Aryan purity. The Whole Nazi extravaganza.
That he was handsome, charismatic and faithiful to Eva Brown, I am definitely sure of that. But he killed Blondi, He killed Geli.
That he destroy Germany and Germany's reputation is also true!
Germans have to come to grips with their history and Markel is part of her history.
I admire this woman a lot AND SHE KNOWS, nobody is twisting her hand.
It is not the fighting enough and late, but the famous Evian conference that gave Hitler the go ahead to do what he wanted because the rest of the world did NOT give a thought tho it at all.
Guilt trips?
I hope the poster who wrote this forum feels that guilt trip.
It is a necessary one.

I lost people in the Shoa which refers to the Jewish tragedy that is in addition to the people I just mentioned above.
Anybody who has problems with commemorating this tragedy can go and hit himself/ herself her head against the wall. Oh what a relief afterwards.
No relief for those we lost..............................

Rachel

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 23, 2013 3:45:54 PM PST
cain killed abel too

how long do people hold a grudge instead of moving on

japan got over their being nuked

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 23, 2013 3:46:33 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Feb 23, 2013 3:47:01 PM PST
S. Kessler says:
No one among the allies really cared about Jews being sent to concentration camps until very near the end of the war when they saw what had really happened at those camps. When American Jews in the United States begged Roosevelt to provide an increased number of visas for Jewish refugees from Germany, America said "no", no special treatment. When American Jewish leaders begged Roosevelt to order the bombing of the rail lines carrying Jews from the ghettos to the death camps to disrupt the process, they were told that there were higher priorities. And many other European countries were as complicit as Germany in the extermination of Jews during the war. Need I go on?

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 23, 2013 3:48:03 PM PST
S. Kessler says:
Sorry, some things can never be forgiven. Certainly not forgotten.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 23, 2013 3:52:37 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Feb 23, 2013 3:54:50 PM PST
Al says:
Another ridiculously long, rambling, incoherent rant from Rachel. I just have four questions: you say "Further more it is not only about Jews but about Gypsies, and Blacks ,and Poles, and Russians, Socialist and Communists................................. and the chums he had that he one day betrayed also." What are you saying Adolf Hitler did to the Blacks, and to how many of them?

What do you say we have a day every year to commemorate the dispossessed Palestinians? How about the ones rotting away in so-called refugee camps? Can we expect Netanyahu to make a pilgrimage to the West Bank to commemmorate that?

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 23, 2013 4:07:56 PM PST
Al says:
S.K.: " When American Jewish leaders begged Roosevelt to order the bombing of the rail lines carrying Jews from the ghettos to the death camps to disrupt the process, they were told that there were higher priorities."

Al: Some officials in the Roosevelt administration thought "there were higher priorities" because they didn't believe the internment camps were "death camps."

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 23, 2013 4:10:37 PM PST
nonsense

there were higher priorities because bombing the rail lines to the camp would not shorten the war and only delay the death of a few people

bombing other targets would save more people in the long run and do it sooner

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 23, 2013 4:29:46 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Mar 4, 2013 5:58:11 AM PST
Rachel says:
Algerians black soldiers were posted in Germany by the French in Germany................ and German women did have children from them. Those were Black Germans in Germany. Hitler went after them too. How many I do not know ,but I do know that Hitler was not enthralled with this at all and he did go after them.


No way this can be forgotten, forgiven or forbidden. It was a sad state of affairs in Germany and Germans have to learn to live with it.
The train tracks that linked Upper Silesia toward Auschwitz could have been bombed, for example.
Hitler lost the war because he got so involved with his war against the Jews. That is a fact. His Generals were not happy with is strategies either.
Yea! .......................... higher priorities were there- since that administration had to overcome the State Department to accept survivors......................

Rambling is your first post dear.
I do know what I am talking about.


The real issue on your post is in your answer:

Are we talking about Germany and the Holocaust, or are we talking about Israel and the Palestinians.
Now I see that you are mixing both and that is the real origin for your posting. Not what Markel does or doesn't do at all. I t is about the Jews.

Rachel

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 23, 2013 9:02:42 PM PST
S. Kessler says:
And they were wrong, weren't they? The evidence of what went on in them was available. They just didn't think it was important.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 23, 2013 9:32:10 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Feb 23, 2013 9:35:33 PM PST
IGS says:
S. Kessler

"some things can never be forgiven. "

They are gone, there is no one left to apologize or to apologize to. They are all dead. So that issue is now gone. And yes they can be forgotten, they already are. In fact, nothing has been learned, This should have been well proved in 1994 when in 3 months 500,000-1,000,000 Tutsi's met their maker. Its all been for nothing. The slaughter of the Armenians, the Cambodians, the Jews, the Roma, the Tutsi's. Perhaps Vad Yashem should be expanded to capture all those who perished in such circumstance. But, if it were, there simply would be no place to live, the place would cover Sinai, Jordan, Israel and just about every place else. Man is a sad creature who respects none.

The lesson to be taken away is that man does not learn, being reminded of it does not teach, and they continue to do it as we speak, and it is all a waste. All those people died for nothing. None more special than the rest. Perhaps that is the saddest of all ... its all been a waste. Who will it be next time?

But forgiven, irrelevant, forgotten, it already is and has been for decades. The planet has 7 billion people on it, what happened to 0.08% of them 70 yeas ago is irrelevant to most and forgotten to most. That is the sad truth of it all.

Posted on Feb 23, 2013 9:33:23 PM PST
L. King says:
Martin Luther King's Birthday is pretty widely celebrated and acknowledged. So is Remembrance Day, and May 1st - both based on historical events, in case people can't remember . Then there's Christmas, New Years and Good Friday, again based on history. Earth Day comes to mind as well.

There's a day to commemorate the Rwandan Genocide.

http://www.un.org/en/preventgenocide/rwanda/commemoration/annualcommemoration.shtml

Maybe Al could remember how the US stopped that one as well.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 23, 2013 9:44:52 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Feb 23, 2013 10:42:15 PM PST
L. King says:
A very strange attitude for a history buff, Surfin'. I suppose one should also forget all the details of military history or political history. Pretty useless as one never learns anything from it and we keep repeating the same mistakes.

Yes, History may be interesting for it's own sake, but there is also a utilitarian use for it as well - and not necessarily one for the better I'm afraid. People learn what they can get away with based on what they know others have forgotten.

You and I live in charmed areas of the world. Nothing bad is likely to happen to either of us in an historic sense if we just stay where we are, at least in our own lifetimes. Not everyone has that luxury.

I know you know this reference, but I'll put it in anyway: Thinking In Time

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 23, 2013 9:54:12 PM PST
The Holocaust is not "used" as anything. It is a terrible crime against innocent human beings that should never have happened. "Supposed fate"? You are an absolute idiot.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 23, 2013 11:49:49 PM PST
IGS says:
I did not say any such thing. But, you and I are a rarity, we care about history. But as a general rule most do not and even fewer take lessons a way from it and also the lessons they take away may be very different from the ones you take away. And my point is demonstrably true in ever facet set forth in my previous post and response to sk. There is no longer a point to apology all those who would give and receive are dead. And people have not learned a single thing from it. So if you would seek to educate, the nazi mass killing are apparently not a useful tool time to look for a better one, my only point.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 24, 2013 4:03:34 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Mar 21, 2013 12:13:19 PM PDT
Rachel says:
IGS:
We must make a difference between:

Genocide and fratricidal war.
Not all killing are Genocides. Lemkin made the definition very speciific. Yes, ther Genocides have followe after Hitler, but not your example.
I just saw s aw movie made for TV, for Germany, made long time ago actually, in which the victimization was reversed and Germans blamed the "bad leader that led them."
I don't grasp that one.

32 people in my family can't be erased that easy way . I am sorry. it hurts plenty. from party in which they all had been together.
The photograph is there, and my children will have it..........
This is what it must be remembered. Hitler preyed on Jewish vulnerability, not only in Germany but across Europe.
No more, not ever.
Rachel.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 24, 2013 4:06:04 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Mar 21, 2013 12:13:55 PM PDT
Rachel says:
IGS:

I don't want apologies it is done dear.

I would just like that it is remembered, and perhaps teach to prevent other Genocides.

Rachel

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 24, 2013 6:23:58 AM PST
Al says:
SK: Yes, "the evidence of what went on in [wartime German detention centres]was available." The Americans were bombing Auschwitz and taking aerial photos at the same time. Those photos were made public by the CIA in 1979: they show no evidence of mass murder: no big clouds of smoke, no line-ups of people being gassed. So, the US knew the atrocity allegations were exaggerated.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 24, 2013 6:30:02 AM PST
Irish Lace says:
"Can anyone think of any event in history that gets as much attention and reverence? "

The birth of a mythical being born of a "virgin?" The death of same?

Grow up, Al.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 24, 2013 7:55:55 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Feb 24, 2013 8:35:10 AM PST
IGS says:
Rachel

There is a difference between a genocide and fratricide ... only semantically. There is no meaningful difference. The Tutsi would not appreciate the fine point of your distinction, not at all. The slaughter of a million unarmed Tutsi is quite the same thing dear. Anytime you are willing to stand up in a room full of Tutsi and say otherwise, be my guest. It will make for an interesting YouTube video. I am sad to say but your distinction is irrelevant dear. Moreover, Mao's 10's of millions sadly all would not appreciate your distinction.

As for your relatives, horribly sad. I had not realized you were over 75 years old. I think such massacres are rather the rule in human history rather than the exception, that was my only point. It's rather par for the course for this sad species called man.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 24, 2013 2:45:03 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Feb 24, 2013 2:46:36 PM PST
John M. Lane says:
Every historian who's studied the Holocaust aknowledges it as the mass murder of millions of un-armed, innocent men, women and children because they were Jews, Al. The "atrocity allegations" were not "exaggerated."

Nazi records, for example, were among the first to estimate the death toll at over six million. By the way, what photographs are you describing? There are plenty of photographs taken by the Nazis themselves showing how the death camps operated.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 24, 2013 2:52:59 PM PST
IGS says:
John

Absolutely, Al is a blow hard uninformed Nazi sympathizer. I almost think he is faking it to get a rise out of people.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 24, 2013 2:56:02 PM PST
John M. Lane says:
I agree, IGS. That's a good point.
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Discussion in:  History forum
Participants:  60
Total posts:  7497
Initial post:  Feb 23, 2013
Latest post:  Feb 25, 2014

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