Customer Discussions > History forum

Not sure if it is history, but how far is too far?


Sort: Oldest first | Newest first
Showing 1-25 of 428 posts in this discussion
In reply to an earlier post on Dec 18, 2012 1:52:42 PM PST
patrick says:
uh-huh...."Bizness"

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 17, 2012 8:00:50 PM PST
B. A. Dilger says:
And don't forget the $2,000,000,000 a year it brings in for interested parties.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 17, 2012 12:44:18 PM PST
OK, I'll accept that there is a distinction between recognizing a country's right to exist and its actual existence.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 17, 2012 12:05:55 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 17, 2012 12:13:59 PM PST
patrick says:
What do they call it in the North African Arab world?
"Bizness" ?

Do you really believe that those two treaties mean that the citizens of those countries, let alone the wider Arab/Muslim world, acknowledge Israel's right to exist?

At most it acknowledges that it DOES exist....and acknowledges that they desperately need the trade/economic co-operation, and tacitly that, lets even them face it, they could not apparently overcome it, for the time being, frontally, by war.
Egypt for one received territory, land for peace, back for it.
BTW...they killed Sadat for it, and tried to do Hassan and seize Jordan from the Hashemites, as well...

You can read very little , probably more like nothing, of what is in the Arab heart, by those pragmatist accomodations.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 17, 2012 5:49:10 AM PST
If all Arabs and Muslims believe that Israel has no right to exist, how could there ever have been a peace treaty and mutual recognition between Israel and Egypt and Israel and Jordan?

Posted on Dec 16, 2012 9:33:43 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 16, 2012 9:38:35 PM PST
patrick says:
oh, im not sure about 'Holocaust Denial" in the Arab world or Iran, all I can say about that is that the Arabs are often said to be the ORIGINAL enthusiasts of nutbag conspiracy-theories in general, and the fact that Holocaust Denial is connected with Jews and irritating to Jews, would tend to make it appealing to Arabs and Muslims in general.
Whether they really believe such a thing , Im not sure, I have real doubts as to that most conspiracy theorists themselves anywhere really actually believe wholeheartedly even what theyre peddling.
Have you ever heard the stuff that blared from the radio stations in the Arab world, and went around the hookah dens, regarding why Egypt Jordan and Syria were routed in the 6-Day War?
Its just eye-opening , and was partly prodded along by leaders like Nasser himself.And theyre the same everything from Saddam Hussein and the Iraq war, to the death of Osama binLaden.They talk crazy shyt about all of it.

But Arabs and Muslims believe Israel has no right to exist at all?
Thats just going to be a ubiquitous viewpoint there.Maybe almost universal.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 16, 2012 5:31:03 PM PST
OK, the Wikipedia article "Holocaust Denial" makes a good case that this attitude is common in the Arab world. They don't say anything about non-Arab Muslim countries.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 16, 2012 5:26:36 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 16, 2012 9:34:30 PM PST
patrick says:
A. I think it is one of the most common viewpoints and beliefs, maybe its even more in the character of a kind of an assumption, of any muslim worldwide, whether living in a muslim country or society, or not.

B. Iranians in particular are directly in the thrall of Islamic firebrands at senior govt level, anyway.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 16, 2012 5:12:21 PM PST
What is your evidence? My problem with this is that if Iran is not a free society, the responses one gets from the "man on the street" might not be what they actually believe.

Let's say you ask the man in the street "do you believe Israel has a right to exist"? Don't you think he would be reluctant to say yes if he's living in a police state whose official position is the opposite? Same with whether the Holocaust actually occurred.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 16, 2012 3:12:24 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 16, 2012 3:16:55 PM PST
patrick says:
Yes.

Even if they dont pull strings on the voting and vote count itself, it is a farce, because in that same election, even Arminadinajads opponent, like any candidate there, has to be "approved" by the turbans and beards council.
To even be allowed by them to run, I have to wonder what he himself was about, whether he had won or not.
What is the spectrum of people that they will even allow to go on the ballot paper?

I imagine that they cant be people,say, who are absolutely nothing like, nothing in common with, an Iranian Mullah, for values and mindset.

At best, they might be someone who doesnt look as stupid as Dinnjerjad does, and someone who is a little more prudent and sober in speech, and apparently somewhat better formally educated.
Not a buffoon cartoon figure begging to be ridiculed and marginalised in most countries political forums.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 16, 2012 3:07:26 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 16, 2012 3:08:13 PM PST
patrick says:
yes.Particularly the latter.
Thats why the sceptical look on my face that you saw.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 16, 2012 11:57:53 AM PST
Agree the last one wasn't free and fair.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 16, 2012 8:20:46 AM PST
B. A. Dilger says:
Iranian elections are bogus. It is the clergy and the Iranian Guard that control Iran.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 16, 2012 5:47:23 AM PST
Agree national pride is a very potent force, and can be harnessed in all sorts of very negative ways.

I do believe though that a lot of Iranians don't support their current leadership but are staying silent or being kept silent by severe repression. And they are suffering as a result of the sanctions put on Iran for refusing to abandon their nuclear weapons program. I would hope that at some point dissatisfaction with the current leadership would be sufficient to cause regime change. There is another presidential election coming up in 2013; whether it will afford the Iranian people a free and fair chance to replace the current leadership I don't know.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 16, 2012 5:42:36 AM PST
B. A. Dilger says:
"Is the average Iranian responsible for the fact that their leadership is trying to make a nuclear weapon and lying about it?"

I saw or read something that stated that the average Iranian citizen is proud that their country will have nuclear weapons. Puts them on the map, so to speak. It probably won't matter what kind of government comes to power.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 15, 2012 6:04:51 AM PST
do you have evidence that they do?

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 14, 2012 6:10:56 PM PST
patrick says:
(cocks eyebrow and purses lips)

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 14, 2012 3:32:28 PM PST
Well I certainly hope the "average Iranian" doesn't believe that the Holocaust never happened or that Israel has no right to exist.

Posted on Dec 14, 2012 1:30:44 PM PST
patrick says:
oh, well Im very compelled to compare Islamofascism with Germans under Hitler, maybe needing to insert certain qualifiers to be a little fair to the 1933-45 Germans, but it is a separate argument.

as to Iran,my reading of it , the overall situation, is this. The impression I get.
there is quite some opposition, or rather probably better call it criticism or disatisfaction than opposition, to the regime mostly revolving around domestic issues, and mostly revolving around bread and butter issues.
My feeling is that theyre behind the regime on foreign policy.

that is what one of these 'we're young hip wear levis and listen to rock music " Iranians told me as much, on one of these kinds of boards.
And that was also his own position.
And Im compelled to believe his is a typical view and a fair assessment.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 14, 2012 12:08:16 PM PST
What I mean is that we shouldn't condemn the people of Iran as a whole for things their leadership do, especially if their leadership is tyrannical and ruthlessly suppresses dissent.

Is the average Iranian responsible for the fact that their leadership is trying to make a nuclear weapon and lying about it?

And while I agree that the leadership is anti-Semitic, they haven't actually committed mass murder of Jews. So the Iranian people (at least not yet, and hopefully never) should not be equated with the German people under Hitler.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 14, 2012 10:58:40 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 14, 2012 11:01:19 AM PST
patrick says:
yes.

and of course as we know, very few Germans supported Hitler.
So of course we needed to apply a similiar practical distinction.

This whole line.
We may as well 'draw a distinction between the current leadership and the -American- people as a whole".

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 14, 2012 6:16:46 AM PST
Trusting the leadership of Iran would be foolish.

I draw a distinction between the current leadership and the Iranian people as a whole.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 13, 2012 11:37:12 PM PST
patrick says:
some do.

Including quite a few Americans and maybe even a certain number of eccentric Jews and Israelis.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 13, 2012 11:35:20 PM PST
patrick says:
I suggested something regarding the China-west-Third World triangle earlier this year.
Currently, the West obviously including America in particular,already in debt to the eyeballs and wazoo,
borrows scads of money from China, and gives bazzillions in foreign aid to the Third World.

Why not cut out the middle-man. (being the middle-man is a good deal when there is a mark-up, but not so much when its being given away)

ie, dont borrow money from china and give it to Third World.
CHINA just impresses the hell out of the world as a great cashed up global citizen, by giving it to the Third world direct.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 13, 2012 4:39:22 PM PST
So as a result we shouldn't trust them. And we don't.
‹ Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ... 18 Next ›
[Add comment]
Add your own message to the discussion
To insert a product link use the format: [[ASIN:ASIN product-title]] (What's this?)
Prompts for sign-in
 


 

This discussion

Discussion in:  History forum
Participants:  17
Total posts:  428
Initial post:  Nov 6, 2012
Latest post:  Dec 18, 2012

New! Receive e-mail when new posts are made.
Tracked by 1 customer

Search Customer Discussions