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In reply to an earlier post on Nov 17, 2012 6:42:50 PM PST
Rachel says:
Jeff:

Answer question one too please. I think the non- acceptance has to do with the behavior of the Hashmonaim themselves, the fact that these writing were in Greek. We celebrate Hanukkah and it is not in the Torah, therein my question.

But if I am studying The Jews of Upper Silesia in the 1920 to foreshadow the Holocaust is to read history backwards. If I come to the period of Auschwitz and I integrate this into Upper Silesia because it is there then I see the reason for talking chronologically about it. If Paula Hyman is studying Jews and Gender should she integrate the subject? I also wonder is the fact that Zionism won a factor in the non- integration into history. Why should we close the gap: antisemitism is explained enough.

Rachel

Posted on Nov 17, 2012 6:46:53 PM PST
Sixties fan says:
What a Turkey !!!!! Just in time for Thanksgiving :):)

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/162177

Erdogan: Israel Making Fuss over Its 3 Dead

Arab foreign ministers discuss Gaza in emergency meeting. Erdogan says Israel violated ceasefire.

By Gil Ronen
First Publish: 11/17/2012, 9:58 PM
Erdogan at Cairo University
Reuters

Arab heads of state and foreign ministers denounced Israel's campaign against Hamas in Gaza in an emergency meeting in Cairo on Saturday, while visiting Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan said disparagingly that Israel was "making an international racket" over civilians killed by Hamas rockets.

The session came amid what AFP termed "a flurry of meetings" to coordinate an Arab and Turkish response to the four-day operation.

Member states should "reconsider all past Arab initiatives on the peace process and review their stance on the process as a whole," said Arab League chief Nabil al-Arabi. "Our meetings have become a waste of money and a waste of time," said Qatar's prime minister, Sheikh Hamad bin Jassem al-Thani.

"We are meeting today and we will issue a statement. The statement will mean nothing," he said. "The whole situation needs a clear and honest review."

The diplomats were referring to the Arab peace initiative in 2002 and subsequent proposals, not the peace treaties Israel signed with Egypt and Jordan.

Saturday's session, called by Egyptian President Mohammed Morsi and the "Palestinians," came after Morsi met Erdogan.

Both Turkey and Egypt have publicly refused requests from Washington to exert pressure on Hamas into ending rocket fire into Israel, blaming the Jewish state instead for the violence.

"It's a tactic of Israel's to point the finger at Hamas and attack Gaza," Erdogan told reporters on Saturday before leaving Ankara for Cairo.

"Israel continues to make an international racket with its three dead," he said of the three residents of Kiryat Malachi killed by

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 17, 2012 6:50:08 PM PST
jeffesq613 says:
See the following:

http://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/33/why-isnt-the-book-of-the-maccabees-part-of-the-jewish-canon

Posted on Nov 17, 2012 6:59:22 PM PST
Sixties fan says:
On another note......

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/161843

International Bands Rock Out in Israel for ProgStage 2012

Interviews with local and international bands that performed at the 2012 ProgStage festival in northern Israel.

AAFont Size
By Ben Bresky & Gabriella Licsko
First Publish: 11/8/2012, 11:40 AM


The Flower Kings live in Israel

Ben Bresky


They came from Sweden, Poland, France, and Israel, all for one reason -- to rock. The ProgStage 2012 festival brought together several international and local acts in the genre of progressive metal, art rock and alternative hard rock. The festival took place on the shore of the Sea of Galilee, the Kinneret.

Arutz Sheva's Israel Beat Jewish Music Podcast was there. For the full podcast including interviews and music excerpts click here.

ProgStage coverage


Top selling acts such as Pain of Salvation, which includes members from Sweden, France, and Iceland performed as well as Andromeda and The Flower Kings, both from Sweden, Osada Vida from Poland and others. Israeli acts included Orphaned Land, Frog, Solstice Coil, Sanhedrin, Sumo Elevator, Distorted Harmony, Ha-Arnav Ha-Lavan and more. Master classes were featured as well with musicians teaching about composition and performance technique.

Patrick Losinsky, organizer of the event spoke to Arutz Sheva: "I have been here for over 20 years and it was always my dream to have such a festival," he stated. He is also the founder of the band Artland. Born in the former Soviet Union, Losinsky said he feels that he has an international outlook. "My father is from Poland, my mother is from Ukraine and my adopted mother is from Australia," he said.

He didn't venture to guess how Israel compared to his place of birth in terms of progressive rock, but did say that there are many new bands in Israel and new ones being formed all the time. "I don't know how many there are but we are trying to recognize them all. That's why we were here."

The three days offered many new up-and-coming Israeli groups an outlet to perform as well as the headliners. It was a far cry from last year's debut festival which took place in Petah Tivka in the Sharet concert hall and included four bands. The event organizers said they felt there is a real niche for progressive rock in Israel.

One young band seems to agree with that sentiment. The members of Frog, all young Israelis from the area near Kfar Yarok in the north include a cello player, pianist, electric guitarist, drummer and bass player.

"I think that most Israelis have very creative minds. Everywhere you go, the music is more and more complex. It's outside the mainstream. This is the kind of style we like -- to have a different sound in our ears," stated one member.

The most well-known Israeli band was Orphaned Land, known for their mixing of hard-edged metal and Sephardic liturgical prayers. They performed on stage with an oud player and Jewish-Yemenite musician Shlomit Levi.

In total there were 14 bands from Israel and three from overseas. "I always like to mix music and find a good balance between classical styles and new styles," Losinsky stated. "I came from the progressive rock of the late 70s and early 80s like King Crimson," he said.

King Crimson, the well-known British band seemed to be a favorite of others as well. The Israeli band Bubble Bath, whose band leader Ronit Levy sported multi-colored dreadlocks, performed King Crimson cover songs. At least half of the bands had a decidedly metal feel.

But concerts were not the only thing happening at the festival. Held on the shore of the Sea of Galilee, many camped out and slept overnight. The stage was set up next to the Dugal water park and the water slides and inner-tubes saw a distinct increase in young men with long hair and black t-shirts. However there was a fairly diverse cross section of attendees in terms of age and gender. Even some Europeans came all the way to Israel just for the event.

The organizing team took efforts to attract young couples and families as well as the youth. "Our priority was not only to get people to come to an ordinary concert for a couple of hours listen to music and go home," Losinsky stated. "We had events for kids such as a "gymboree", face painting and games. Parents could enjoy the music an bring the kids too."

Other activities included dance sessions, yoga lessons, a drum circle and, most popular, the masters classes. Each of the international bands spoke in English to the audience about performance technique, composition tips and other musical concepts. The master's classes were attended almost as well as the actual performances.

The Flower Kings find their influence in such 1970s bands as Pink Floyd, Yes and Genesis. "We try to have one foot on the future and one foot in the past," they said of their style.

Formed in Sweden, they also have one member from Germany. "We hope to play some good music for the Israeli people and enjoy the beach here at the Lake Tiberias," stated bass player Jonas Reingold. "I was a bit surprised when people at the airport came up and said 'oh you play in a band? Welcome to Israel!' It was a warm welcome," he commented. The band also said they were looking forward to a tour of the country especially Jerusalem.

One of the most well known bands was Pain of Salvation, led by singer and songwriter Daniel Gildenlow. The band leans toward the metal genre but has often incorporated symphony instruments and other avant garde sounds into their music. Founded in Sweden, the band includes members from Iceland and France. Daniel's speech at the masters class was the most well attended. He spoke for about two hours and answered questions about his philosophy on life, spirituality, reality, music and his broad ranging concept albums.

As for their pre-conceived notions of Israel, the band members said they didn't really have any. Echoing the sentiments of the Flower Kings, they were simply excited to perform in front of an audience in a place they had never been to before.

Regarding the potential dangers of traveling to the Middle East, Gildenlow stated, "I am a sucker for statistics, which makes me feel less vulnerable. Sure the possibility is always there to be bombed or kidnapped. But the statistics are greater to be killed in my car on the way to the airport rather then to happen to be at the wrong place at the wrong time."

A ProStage festival is planned for the coming year and organizers hope to expand the event even further. For a full interview and music samples, download the Israel Beat Jewish Music Podcast by clicking here.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 17, 2012 6:59:45 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Nov 17, 2012 7:00:51 PM PST
Rachel says:
Jefesq613:

Todah! Type Maccabees and a Rock group in Israel comes out. Seriously :-)
Seriously about the second question I agreed with most historians that talked about sequestering this History. May be it is not our generation of historians who can do the job but the next. We are way too near to it to do so, but is is also what are you studying and why should you integrate this in your own interests as a historian , unless what it happened in my research that I did end up integrating the Shoa because it was appropriate.

If yes, how would you go about the integration that Scholem and Yerushalmi argue for?

Rachel

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 17, 2012 7:14:31 PM PST
jeffesq613 says:
I never claimed to be a historian, Rachel. Your question is beyond my pay grade.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 17, 2012 7:21:50 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Nov 17, 2012 9:00:35 PM PST
Rachel says:
Jefesq613:

Chaver, I forgive you :-) I like you just the way you are......

I just want a stimulating conversation in the midst of calming my own nerves about what should be logical: that Israel must must defend itself and its citizens, enough is more than enough.
You give leeway and they see this as weakness.
Furthermore, I think they want to see if other Muslim countries support them.
What they don't realize is that all Muslim countries have used them for their own aims and they will used them again as they see fit. They think that they would get "respect" by doing the rockets which is not a game, but deadly serious and point blank they must be stopped.
Finally, I went to the site that you suggested. From there they suggest an interesting lecture in YU about the subject. That lecture lasted 1 hour and thirty minutes. I listened. So thanks.
Rachel

Posted on Nov 17, 2012 7:26:16 PM PST
Sixties fan says:
Sunday, November 18, 2012
(Video) A View from Down Under - Gaza Conflict
Michael Rubin..
Commentary/Contentions..
17 November '12..

Colin Rubenstein, the director of AIJAC based in Melbourne, Australia, appeared Friday on the Australian Broadcast Corporation's (ABC) News 24. Australia's ABC takes a political slant much like that of the BBC, but Rubenstein's description of the reason for and logic of the Israeli military campaign is about as articulate as it comes. It is worth the watch.

It's also well-worth noting that not only Tony Abbott, the leader of the opposition and the head of the center-right Liberal Party, but also Prime Minister Julia Gillard, who is decidedly left-of-center, have endorsed Israel's right to self-defense and roundly condemned Hamas without any moral equivalence. It is good to see that, at least outside the United States, many liberals and progressives recognize just what is at stake.

Link: http://www.commentarymagazine.com/2012/11/17/gaza-conflict-a-view-from-down-under/

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 17, 2012 9:30:11 PM PST
J. Schwarz says:
I can't understand why a Jew hater like Bookless needs to go on a site that is pro Israel. I think there is something seriously wrong with her thinking. Maybe Bookless needs to go to Gaza and be with her Arab brothers. She never adds to the discussion and seems to enjoy being ridiculed by the rest of us. Definitely the signs of a masochist. Well just another disfunctional individual with a need to confront Jews. Can you say Jewish envy? Just like LAD.

Posted on Nov 17, 2012 9:48:08 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Nov 17, 2012 9:50:01 PM PST
Amit kumar says:
The most beautiful song for beautiful tradition : Jews and Judaism and country : Eretz Israel
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Avir harim tsalul k'yayin
Vereiyach oranim
Nissah beru'ach ha'arbayim
Im kol pa'amonim.

U'vtardemat ilan va'even
Shvuyah bachalomah
Ha'ir asher badad yoshevet
Uvelibah - chomah. Verse 1

The mountain air is clear as water
The scent of pines around
Is carried on the breeze of twilight,
And tinkling bells resound.

The trees and stones there softly slumber,
A dream enfolds them all.
So solitary lies the city,
And at its heart -- a wall.

Chorus:
Yerushalayim shel zahav
Veshel nechoshet veshel or
Halo lechol shirayich Ani kinor.
x2 Chorus:
Oh, Jerusalem of gold,
and of light and of bronze,
I am the lute for all your songs.
x2


Verse 2

Chazarnu el borot hamayim
Lashuk velakikar
Shofar koreh behar habayit
ba'ir ha'atikah.

Uvme'arot asher baselah
Alfei shmashot zorchot
Nashuv nered el Yam Hemalach
B'derech Yericho
Verse 2

The wells are filled again with water,
The square with joyous crowd,
On the Temple Mount within the City,
The shofar rings out loud.

Within the caverns in the mountains
A thousand suns will glow,
We'll take the Dead Sea road together,
That runs through Jericho.

Chorus:
Yerushalayim shel zahav
Veshel nechoshet veshel or
Halo lechol shirayich Ani kinor.
x2 Chorus:
Oh, Jerusalem of gold,
and of light and of bronze,
I am the lute for all your songs.
x2

Verse 3

Ach bevo'i hayom lashir lach
Velach likshor k'tarim
Katonti mitse'ir bana'ich
Ume achron ham'shorerim.

Ki shmech tsorev et hasfatayim
Keneshikat saraf
Im eshkachech Yerushalayim
Asher kulah zahav. Verse 3

But as I sing to you, my city,
And you with crowns adorn,
I am the least of all your children,
Of all the poets born.

Your name will scorch my lips for ever,
Like a seraph's kiss, I'm told,
If I forget thee, golden city,
Jerusalem of gold.

Chorus:
Yerushalayim shel zahav
Veshel nechoshet veshel or
Halo lechol shirayich Ani kinor.
x2 Chorus:
Oh, Jerusalem of gold,
and of light and of bronze,
I am the lute for all your songs.
x2

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 18, 2012 12:00:33 AM PST
William B says:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72QC8EGnxTw

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 18, 2012 4:06:07 AM PST
Wulfwig Fox says:
[Customers don't think this post adds to the discussion. Show post anyway. Show all unhelpful posts.]

Posted on Nov 18, 2012 4:53:35 AM PST
Susanna says:
A real reason for peace now:

Egypt is trying to negotiate with Hamas for a truce, which so far calls on Israel to remove the maritime blockade that has prevented the free import of weapons by sea into Gaza.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/162202

Posted on Nov 18, 2012 6:18:11 AM PST
Sixties fan says:
18-Nov-12: Fell short? Not just the Hamas rockets but the ethics of the journalists covering them

Israelis take cover in a pipe used as a bomb shelter, after a rocket was launched from the Gaza Strip on Thursday, November 15 in Kiryat Malachi, Israel [Image Source: CNN]
Wars are complicated and messy. So, sometimes, we form our views about them, and about the parties fighting them, from simpler things. Things like photographs.

On Friday, the Egyptian prime minister came visiting Gaza. He was not there long - an hour or two. Long enough for the insiders of the Hamas regime to arrange (engineer?) some photo opportunities, one of which ignited a firestorm of sympathy, attention and invective against the Israeli actions in this war, and literally, physically brought the Moslem Brotherhood politician to tears [see "Stop the carnage: Egypt PM weeps for Palestinian boy killed in airstrike and calls for truce"]. You can see the photo of the dead child in many places on the web. It's a tragic image, and one we prefer not to place on this page because it's a child there that is dead, and there ought to be a limit to how much an image like that gets exploited. But we're getting ahead of ourselves/

CNN published a video clip yesterday (Saturday) featuring the child and the tragic back-story. It's here.

Small boy caught in Mideast crossfire
CNN|Added on November 16, 2012
CNN's Sara Sidner reports from Gaza on how a small child became a symbol of civilian casualties.
The experts at CNN have it right; the child's death is a symbol, but of something else: the malevolence of the terrorists who routinely use deaths on their own side to advance their political and theological campaign. Watch the video and see the articles that envelope the photo that has been published in dozens of places. You are left in no doubt that this horrible thing (it certainly is horrible) was Israel's doing, and that Israel seeks the deaths of Gazan children.

But is it?

In reality, as we pointed out last night, the rate at which terrorist rockets that are intended to hit Israeli civilian targets is incredibly high. Even more incredible is the way the mainstream news media, surely aware of the facts, deem it unworthy of being reported. We commented on it earlier today ["18-Nov-12: Contemplating rockets"] and in the past

5-Nov-12: Incoming missile alert at 11:30 this morning
14-Oct-12: Early Sunday evening missile attacks
8-Sep-12: Familiar routine: rocket and mortar attacks during Sabbath
5-Jul-12: The terrorists of Gaza routinely mis-fire, dropping rockets on their Arab neighbors's heads. When do you hear about those self-inflicted injuries?
22-Jun-12: Killing little children, then turning them into martyrs and blaming it on other people
2-May-12: Terrorists' rocket falls short, crashes near security fence
7-Aug-07: What disaster have these thugs wrought on their people
and numerous other times. Someone needs to note these things.

And when those terrorist rockets fall short, as they do day after day, landing on the heads and rooves of ordinary Palestinian Arab Gazans, people suffer and are sometimes killed, and no one pays attention because it does not fit the conventional Israelis-are-strong-and-evil-while-Palestinians-are-weak-and-no-alternative narrative.

Now comes the estimable Elder of Ziyon and does what the mainstream media would have done if they had cared to look behind the conventional narrative. He joins the dots: "Dead child cradled by Egypt's PM was killed by Hamas!" No need for us to re-state his analysis since you can read it: it leads to the conclusion that the lifeless Gazan child, Mahmoud Sadalha, whose body was presented to the Egyptian prime minister as if it were the key to the city was almost certainly killed by one of those 'fell shorts'.

The record shows that the people who put together the mainstream news find it embarrassing to be corrected in this way. So they don't make any great efforts to draw attention to what they have done. We - who one way and another pay the price for the demonization and hatred that follows from such manufactured lies - need to.

http://thisongoingwar.blogspot.co.il/2012/11/18-nov-12-fell-short-not-just-hamas.html

Posted on Nov 18, 2012 6:22:03 AM PST
Sixties fan says:
http://sultanknish.blogspot.co.il/2012/11/a-moment-of-truth-in-israel.html

Part 1

Sunday, November 18, 2012
What Will Be On the Hilltops of Gaza? A Moment of Truth in Israel
Daniel Greenfield..
Sultan Knish..
17 November '12..

Seven years ago the Israeli government decided to forcibly evict the Jewish residents of Gaza and withdraw all bases and forces from the area. The experts, some with the government and some with the media, assured everyone that it would be for the best and that withdrawal would actually improve the security situation in the country.

It was put about that resources and lives were being wasted protecting Israelis living in Gaza, while those Israelis insisted that their presence in Gaza was protecting Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. The experts laughed at them. Now the experts are keeping an ear open for air raid sirens because as it turned out, those farmers and teachers, those men and women growing lettuce in greenhouses and building homes on hilltops, from which rockets are being launched, were the ones protecting Tel Aviv.

"They are now being asked to relinquish these accomplishments for the greater good," the government press release said of their houses and farms, of their synagogues and greenhouses. And the greater good was served. The greenhouses were turned into Hamas training camps and the synagogues were burnt to the ground. Rockets fly into the air from the ruins of broken houses.

No longer will your sons have to die in Gaza, the experts said. A month later rockets were falling on Sderot. A year later Gilad Shalit had been kidnapped and Israeli soldiers were back again, dying in a Gaza that was now run by Hamas.

Among the bundle of promises from the Sharon government, was that the Gaza withdrawal was part of an oral agreement with the United States limiting further withdrawals and concessions. That agreement lasted for another few years until Obama took office and no one in his administration could ever remember such an agreement or accept its validity.

"The moment of truth has arrived," Netanyahu said, on resigning from the Sharon government. "At the moment of truth, a man - especially a leader - must ask himself: 'What are you doing, what do you stand for, what are you fighting for?'"

These moments of truth come fast and furious in Israel, but hardly anyone waits around for an answer. Not even Netanyahu, who knows better.

Hamas' objectives have always been straightforward. Its commanders and suicide bombers, its militia members, bomb experts, smugglers, launchers and embezzlers know what they are fighting for.

"Our struggle against the Jews is extremely wide-ranging and grave," the Hamas charter says. "Israel, by virtue of its being Jewish and of having a Jewish population, defies Islam and the Muslims." It has the simplicity that you would expect from the Muslim Brotherhood, a fascist organization that drew equal inspiration from the Koran and Nazism.

What however is Israel fighting for? Since Oslo, the slogan of Israeli moderate conservatives has been "Peace with Security" even though it was quite clear that you could pursue peace and have neither peace nor security, or you could pursue security and have peace. Their slogan was muddled and their policies even more so.

Posted on Nov 18, 2012 6:22:51 AM PST
Sixties fan says:
Part 2

Israel may have superior firepower, but like most Western countries, its policymakers are too muddled to be able to apply that firepower in a useful way. The limited scale warfare that has been adopted by America, including drone assassinations and extensive security measures, came out of Israel's futile efforts to find a more humanitarian style of warfare that would limit civilian and military casualties. But all that these measures really did was make life with terror more manageable.

Withdrawals and a variety of defensive measures such as Iron Dome made it seem like Israel could maintain the status quo. Peace with Security meant no peace and no security, but enough of the illusion of both that it would seem as if the slogan had been fulfilled. Suicide bombings dropped and the terrorists were forced to resort to rocket attacks and drive-by shootings with much lower casualty rates. Rates so low that those who didn't live in Sderot or Samaria could ignore them.

Instead of ending the threat, Israeli conservatives had found a way to live with the pain of terrorism while turning their focus to economic reforms. The left with its emphasis on finding a permanent solution through appeasement and withdrawals was discredited and collapsed. But the problem had not gone away.

While Israel slept, the makeup of the region changed. Hamas had formerly been strongly backed by Syria and Iran, with some support from more distant Islamist Gulf states such as Saudi Arabia and Qatar. Egypt and Jordan were both wary of Hamas because their governments were concerned about being overthrown by the Muslim Brotherhood.

The Arab Spring put Islamists into power in Egypt. Suddenly the Muslim Brotherhood was running things on both sides of the Rafah Crossing. Hamas switched its allegiance from the shaky Shiite axis of Iran, Syria and Iraq over to the rising Sunni Islamist axis of Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Turkey and Egypt. The Islamist terrorist group was no longer an isolated arm of Iranian foreign policy, it could count on the backing of Turkey, Qatar and Egypt.

Not long after Qatar's leader paid a visit to Hamas, this latest war began. Like so many conflicts with terrorist groups, it isn't about any specific domestic objective. The objectives are regional and now international. Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood regime is looking shaky and the Gaza lifeline has come at a perfect time, allowing Morsi to turn the attention of Egyptians away from the shaky economy and some dubious proposals, including early store closings, over to familiar territory denouncing Israel.

Under Iran or Egypt, Hamas is not fighting for Palestinian nationalism, which was already a fiction manufactured by Soviet propagandists looking up to prop up a Greater Syria, but to support the aims of Iranian and Egyptian domestic policy. And suddenly those aims were uncomfortably close.

Terrorist militias serve an ideology, but function as a business. Al Qaeda, Hamas, Fatah or any other of the many groups blanketing the region, need money and weapons to be viable. They need state sponsors and the states that sponsor them want something in return. Terrorist groups find sponsors the way that Renaissance artists found patrons, they show off their skills and wait for someone to come calling with money and guns. And then they perform for their patrons.

Israel's terrorist problem is unsolvable through any form of peace negotiations because there will always be sponsors. A terrorist group may sign a peace agreement, but then it quickly gets on the phone to its sponsors to assure them that it will go on committing acts of terror. Its militias are spun off into "separatist" or "splinter" groups that go on doing what they did before. And the group then asks its new friend American and Israeli friends for guns and money to fight these extremists. That way the terrorist groups get twice the money for terrorism and a farce of counter-terrorism.

Even if a terrorist leader is sincere, his movement is nothing but an umbrella group for terrorist militias. If the umbrella group stops funneling money from state sponsors to local militias, the militias go into business for themselves. And there is such a demand by sponsors for more and more "extreme" militias, that even the existing terrorist groups find themselves having to compete with newer and more violently Islamist militias.

Peace is useless and hopeless under these conditions. Fatah claimed that it could not control Hamas. Hamas claims it cannot control the men shooting rockets out of Gaza. The people shooting rockets out of Gaza will claim that they cannot control their fingers on the trigger. It's plausible deniability all the way down when it's convenient, but the real control is in the hands of regional regimes who feed coins into the slot and get out terrorism.

So what then is Israel fighting for? Peace with security. Which means slapping down Hamas hard enough that it will have to wait another 3-4 years before trying the same thing again, this time with bigger and better rockets. That was the policy six years ago and it's the policy today.

Israel will bomb Hamas targets, kill some of its senior leaders and destroy some of its weapons stockpiles. Its soldiers will enter Gaza, arrest some more senior leaders, walk into traps that will kill some of its best and brightest, and then withdraw again while Hamas celebrates its victory in the Battle of XX or YY where five or six Israeli soldiers were killed, along with ten or fifteen Hamas terrorists. And then the Battle of XX will become the Massacre of XX and lead to a documentary that will be doing an extended tour of American and Canadian campuses during the next Israeli Apartheid Week.

This is the status quo and it cannot be maintained indefinitely. The air raid sirens going off in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem warn that the war is heading into unsustainable territory. As Iran goes nuclear, Hezbollah is trying to become another Iran and Hamas is trying to become another Hezbollah. It is not a nuisance that can be ignored. Israel has no answer to the growing threat except to try and contain it through the same old methods that have now put Jerusalem and Tel Aviv into the line of fire.

Since 1992, Israel has been retreating and those retreats have replaced secure borders with borders of terror. Rather than reversing those withdrawals, the right has been satisfied with trying to stabilize them. But that has only created safe spaces for terror while setting the stage for the next round of retreats by the left which will create even broader territories of terror. These territories are staging areas for the next invasion, which will come not from Hamas, but a Muslim Brotherhood Egypt and an Islamist Turkey, once Israel has been sufficiently softened up.

The only way to end the threat of Hamas in Gaza is by retaking Gaza, but no such policy is on the table. Like America, Israel responds to terrorism not with the aim of achieving decisive victories, but with a policy of intimidating the terrorists into scaling down their attacks. This is a political policy of political generals and leads to terror becoming a permanent institution.

Israel has tried negotiating its way out of the terrorist trap. It has not tried fighting its way out. Israel has tried to escape the occupation, but in a region where you are either the occupier or the occupied, it may have no choice.

Any moment of truth must begin and end with a realistic assessment of the realities that you face. Israel faces a proxy war by its neighbors and like most proxy wars, it is the opening round to a true war ending in true occupation and genocide. Its neighbors know what they are fighting for. They are fighting Israel for the same reason that Shiites fight Sunnis and that Sunnis persecute Christians. They are fighting Israel because "by virtue of its being Jewish and of having a Jewish population" it is different and must be crushed for the national and religious aims of any proper Islamist country.

But what is Israel fighting for? Like so many modern countries it is fighting so as not to fight. It is fighting for peace. It is fighting to escape from fighting. And so like many modern countries it cannot bring itself to fight hard enough to break the cycle. Instead it fights just hard enough to defer the fight by another few years and the cycle continues.

Israel can retake Gaza once. Or it can retake Gaza every few years. It can have soldiers patrol Gaza or it can have rockets falling on Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. The options are as unfortunate as they are clear. The only hope for peace lies in driving out the terrorist militias who have turned Gaza and the West Bank into their own Somalia and Afghanistan and reclaiming the terrorists. Because after this fight is through, the next generation of rockets will go on being built and smuggled. And they will not fall in empty fields.

There can be farms and greenhouses on the hilltops of Gaza. Or there can be rockets.

Original title: A Moment of Truth in Israel
Link: http://sultanknish.blogspot.co.il/2012/11/a-moment-of-truth-in-israel.html

Posted on Nov 18, 2012 6:32:43 AM PST
Sixties fan says:
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/162192

Analysis: Israel Doing Better in PR Sphere than in Other Wars

Analysis: Israel is encountering a more favorable information climate than in previous wars.


AAFont Size
By Amiel Ungar
First Publish: 11/18/2012, 3:31 PM


Iron Dome as PR

Reuters


It could change, but so far Israel's war against Hamas is not encountering the usual public relations headwinds that previous responses to Arab provocations have encountered.

What is responsible for this - so far - favorable turn of events?

To judge by the news reporting, the star in yesterday's global coverage was the Iron Dome missile battery that intercepted an incoming missile over Tel Aviv.

The AP video showing the Israelis leaving the beach to take cover and waiting for the missile that was shot down did a twofold service.

One, that it displayed normal people awaiting an attacking missile, a Kafkaesque situation.

Second, it had a happy ending with the destruction of that missile that testified to Israel's technological prowess.

It would be worth citing a reader response by Sami Souliman in the English edition of the Turkish Hurriyet (that featured the missile kill on its home page) on this matter.

I usually am against the Israelis but it is very obvious that Gaza is just being used as a forward base for the Iranians. The Shiites are just too happy to sacrifice every Sunni for the cause of Iran. That Turkey follows in this trap shows that Turkey is either stupid or too scared of the Iranians. I also am in wonder of this Iron Dome that Israel created.....this is the proper use of science...to save their civilians. Islam should create more iron domes and less suicide bombers.

Note the mention of the Iranian factor. While Qatar, Egypt and Turkey have tried to wean Hamas away from Iran, the organization in many places worldwide is still being viewed as an Iranian appendage. This is how the Hamas attacks on Israel were perceived in the United States as well by interviewees. The United States may not be prepared for military action against Iran, but Tehran is nobody's flavor of the month. Iran's bragging that it encouraged the Hamas escalation serves Israeli information efforts.

Israel may also be the beneficiary of the horrors of the Civil War in Syria. Nobody likes Iranian proxies, but after the repeated carnage in Syria, what is happening in Gaza seems very mild indeed. There has not been a turning point incident involving many Arab casualties that the Arabs could exploit to garner sympathy.

In addition, the Middle East may have become a turn-off after a year of dominating the airwaves. Following the disappointment with the Arab Spring, a common attitude is let them settle things themselves. There is an aversion to involvement in the West, in the belief that no good can come of it and a lot of bad things may emerge.

This is also connected to the economic crisis in the West that remains the primary focus of public opinion. Demonstrations against austerity and efforts to avoid a financial cliff are more pressing than another mini-war in Gaza.

Last but not least, Israel's information campaign seems been better prepared and better coordinated. Israel has done a better job than on previous occasions in getting good spokespersons out with Israel's side of the story, even though Israel has no al Jazeera of its own. There has been a distinct investment in the social media and so far it is reaping dividends

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 18, 2012 7:26:48 AM PST
jeffesq613 says:
You're welcome.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 18, 2012 7:29:39 AM PST
jeffesq613 says:
Yes, we need to respect the opinions of ignorant one-sided demonizers of Israel too lacking in self-awareness to know that they are motivated by Jew-hatred.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 18, 2012 7:30:52 AM PST
jeffesq613 says:
Watch all the anti-Semitic morons on Amazon line up and declare this to be a reasonable demand.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 18, 2012 9:08:10 AM PST
Rachel says:
J Schwarz:

I am willing to pay for the ticket for him to be there forever. Just as he/ she sends me to Israel every other time. While I wish to be there he/she is not dictating my life or my behavior, or my thinking on that matter. He is a wreck of a biased person and should be made a wreck too asap. No changes , no moves toward understanding or empathy of any type. This is not a person but a broken record with sayings that are so old as antisemitism itself.

Rachel

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 18, 2012 9:16:34 AM PST
Rachel says:
Amit:
Good Morning:

A very appropriate song in a very appropriate moment. Toda Chaver.
This song was made by Noami Shemer, she is buried near the Kinneret with my favorite poetess Rachel among other important people. On the side of her tomb they book the book of songs that she wrote and sang. There anyone wanted to honor her can sing the songs there and it has happened. The views of the Kinneret are just as beautiful. L, King is always worried, as i am , about the level of the Kinneret and I hope it becomes higher.

Do you know that there is another song call Yerushalayim she Barzel?

Todah again.
Rachel

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 18, 2012 9:26:57 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Nov 19, 2012 5:29:39 PM PST
Rachel says:
Jeffesq613:

Oh ! OH! The point is not democracy, but the understanding that free speech means saying anything that comes to mind without having it thought through and framing it then within a context of truth and reality.
Sure people have a right to say what the want to say, but as one American respected senator said: "You have a right to your opinions, but that doesn't make them facts."

If those opinions are horrendously biased, and built upon a false frame of mind then there is no point on including them in a discussion of facts. That is exactly what happens in other sites in which Israel, Jews and Judaism are discussed. Hence the frustration because they have a mindset and they will not change.
Why?
Yes, mentally challenged for sure...... and the the answers we give them belittle too.
There is NO point into getting them anywhere, except that people like Bairn, Bookless, LAD and our
" beloved" Australians, have to be told how wrong they are in their perception- whether they see this or not. They don't like the labels they get, but they are so defining!
At stake it is nothing else but the truth and we side with the truth.

Am Israel Chai!

Rachel

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 18, 2012 12:02:01 PM PST
Bryan Borich says:
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Posted on Nov 18, 2012 12:04:56 PM PST
Sixties fan says:
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/162219

Video: Navy Eliminates Global Jihadist, Hamas TV Hit

Special operation targets terrorist Ahmed Nahel. IDF releases footage from missile-mounted cams.

By Gil Ronen
First Publish: 11/18/2012, 8:37 PM

A special IDF naval operation targeted global jihad terrorist Ahmed Nahel Sunday. The IDF released footage of what appears to be a strike by two missiles on a single target on the Gaza beachfront, while a drone hovered at some distance.

In addition, the IDF released footage from missile-mounted cams showing the targeting of a Hamas communications facility - apparently an office of Hamas's Al Aqsa TV.
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