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Hitler's mistakes

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Showing 126-150 of 1000 posts in this discussion
In reply to an earlier post on Mar 28, 2012 3:08:12 PM PDT
John M. Lane says:
Dear Rachel,

I suspect you're right about the "Hiwis", as volunteers were termed by SS officers and men. They did find a number of local personnel who hated Jews enough to be reliable guards at the death camps.

Hitler, however, had promised to depopulate Poland and repopulate it with Aryans (Germans). You're correct about their views of Slavic inferiority.

I don't think it can be emphasized enough that Hitler saw everything in racial terms, including religion (Judaism), nationality and everything else.

Love,
John

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 28, 2012 3:10:15 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Mar 28, 2012 3:13:59 PM PDT
Joe Anthony says:
To say whether or not Hitler should have ordered the Nazis to be nicer to the Russians negates who Hitler and the Nazis were. In Hitler's autobiography he expresses much contempt for the Slavic peoples as part of his master-race philosophy. Indeed, one might as well say that Hitler should have been nicer to the Jews.

In this regard, I believe that if a counter-factual German government had waged a second world war without the anti-Semitism, it's quite possible that the Germans could have won. From what I understand, many Jews living in Germany prior to the advent of the Nazi government were proud Germans, and some of them actually fought for Germany during World War I. By purging Germany of Jewish scientists, the Nazis pretty much gave the atomic bomb to America.

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 28, 2012 3:20:35 PM PDT
John M. Lane says:
You're correct, Joe Anthony. Hitler's basic mistake was acting like a Nazi.

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 28, 2012 3:22:02 PM PDT
Gregory Mays says:
The Japanese had a grudge with the USA because of the USA's invasion of the Pacific waters, which the Japanese thought as their own property. They saw the USA as a threat since the Panama Canal.<<

I think more to the point, they resented the partitioning of the Pacific and Asia between America, and Britain and to a lesser extent France and Germany. If you're late to the Empire Building Game, what you covet, no doubt, has a current owner. Dislodging that owner means war.
What's interesting to me, is that in the 1920's America(Wilson) thought, and put forward the idea, that the collapse of empires should lead to self determination. Instead, both Germany and Japan thought that the stage had simply been set for a new cast of characters.

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 28, 2012 3:29:24 PM PDT
John M. Lane says:
I suspect you're correct, Gregory Mays. I agree that Imperial Japan came to view the US as its primary adversary in the Pacific.

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 28, 2012 3:34:56 PM PDT
Joe Anthony says:
John M. Lane says:

"Hitler, however, had promised to depopulate Poland and repopulate it with Aryans (Germans)...I don't think it can be emphasized enough that Hitler saw everything in racial terms, including religion (Judaism), nationality and everything else."

I say:

It's frightening to think of an alternate reality where the Nazis win. The cruelty of the war and especially the holocaust seems to be an expression of pure evil, as if the German nation were possessed by a dark shadow from hell.

What baffles my mind even more is the idea that the German nation also gave the world so much beauty. Indeed, as an enthusiast of classical music, almost all of my favorite music comes from German and Austrian composers: Bach, Handel, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Schumann, Mendelssohn, Johann Strauss Jr., Wagner, Brahms, Bruckner, Mahler, Richard Strauss...all from Germany or Austria...in my opinion, the most beautiful music ever composed.

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 28, 2012 3:38:13 PM PDT
John M. Lane says:
I'm baffled too, Joe Anthony, and I'm German by descent. Some of my kinsmen perpetrated what is now called the "Holocaust."

Germans were the most educated, cultured people in the world when the Austrian draft dodger took power. I'm still appalled.

Posted on Mar 28, 2012 3:46:23 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Mar 28, 2012 3:53:47 PM PDT
Japan, Germany, and Italy came late to the empire-building game. Without in any way condoning their atrocities, I think one has to take into consideration that for nearly a century before 1940 they had watched Britain brutalize Africa & India, and the Americans storm across the West from the Appalachians to the Pacific coast and then on to Hawaii and the Philippines (let us not forget the "Trail of Tears" and the suppression of the Philippine Insurrection, 1899-1902). Then there was the French suppression of Northwest Africa, the Belgian's brutal reign in Central Africa, and the Netherlands conquest of the East Indies.

What had America done to create its empire? Made war on neighbors or other colonial powers to acquire territories, violently suppressed native population, then economcially exploited the conquered territories.

I'n not in any way attempting to apologize for the fascists, but I guess from this standpoint all we can say about the Germans, Japanese, and Italians is that they had a bad sense of timing:they were about 80 to 100 years too late in attempting to grab Eastern European "leibensraum," the Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere, and the Italian Lake (the Mediterranean), respectively. In essence they tried to extend the activities of the 19th Century into the 20th and the West didn't like it.

This might have been the biggest mistake: thinking like an imperialist.

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 28, 2012 4:13:12 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Mar 28, 2012 4:16:03 PM PDT
Joe Anthony says:
@High Plains Drifter:

Yeah, I guess what you say makes some sense in that England, France, Belgium, the Netherlands and America didn't set a very good example in regards to "Empire". However, it also seems to me that there was a cruelty about Germany and Japan that didn't exist among the British.

I remember when my mother (Rest In Peace) and I went to see "Gandhi" back in the 1980s, and later we talked about whether or not Gandhi's method of non-violent passive resistance could have worked with the Nazis; my mother didn't think it could have worked because Hitler would not have even winced at the idea of slaughtering a million Indians. Indeed, I don't think Gandhi and the All India Congress could have done it if the Nazis were the ones who controlled India. While the British committed atrocities in India, it does seem that the British had a certain foundation of religious, democratic or moral prinicipals that established self-imposed limits on what they could do and what they could not do to the Indians. Moreover, a system of democratic government in the UK also set limits upon British leaders because of popular opinion back in the UK.

Likewise, the Japanese invasion of China and especially the city of Nanking is stomach-turning; especially when one reads about the millions of killings and crimes against women perpetuated by Japanese soldiers.

While atrocities seem to happen in all wars and while the British, the French and the Americans have not always been angelic in wars and conquests; in the cases of Germany and Japan, there just doesn't seem to be any system of cultural, religious, philosophical or social values that paced limits upon the bad behavior.

I could be wrong. I'm not an expert in imperial or colonial history.

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 28, 2012 4:19:25 PM PDT
D. Boom says:
I agree completely! I just finished "Hitler moves East 1941-1943" and although it is through the eyes of a German talking, (In other words, is, and or could have some biased conclusions) I felt through the notes and the book it is well written and thorough. Several times did Hitler give a hault order. There are direct quotes from "Fast Heinz" on the French invasion yelling "you're wrecking my victory!" Of all the information I have read about the German war machine they were beat because they bit off more than they could chew. And they screwed up by not taking the Ukrainians and using them (They hated Stalin!)

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 28, 2012 4:26:12 PM PDT
D. Boom says:
I have read the same thing! Hitler's generals wanted to move on Moscow and he wanted to take Kiev. He's quoted saying "My generals don't understand war economics!"

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 28, 2012 4:45:19 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Mar 28, 2012 5:05:13 PM PDT
Jeff Marzano says:
Rachel says:

[Who was that Luddendorf ?]

I don't know the name of that guy who took the bullets during the putsch and saved Adolf's life.

Mein Kempf is interesting because it tells how when Hitler and the Nazis were first starting out they would get into fights with other political parties like the Communists.

Fights would often break out. People got beat up. Sometimes they got killed. Hitler himself once pulled out his pistol and fired it into the air to get peoples' attention during one of these beer hall meetings.

Those were the early years of the Nazi party when Hitler formed life long friendships with people like Hess.

Hitler could have easily been killed at any time before he came to power.

Jeff Marzano

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 28, 2012 4:48:43 PM PDT
Jeff Marzano says:
Rachel says:

[The Japanese provocation to to the USA and Hitler's declaration of war to the USA were also his undoing.]

You just mentioned another one of Hitler's mistakes. Declaring war on America with no thought whatsoever.

"We are coming."

(written on leaflets dropped on German cities before the bombings began)

Jeff Marzano

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 28, 2012 4:52:33 PM PDT
Jeff Marzano says:
John M. Lane says:

[I don't think it can be emphasized enough that Hitler saw everything in racial terms, including religion (Judaism), nationality and everything else.]

Hitler felt the Jews were contaminating the German blood lines by inter marrying with Germans.

He felt the only solution to this 'polluting' of the German blood was a process of sterilization and extermination that would take hundreds of years.

That's what they were trying to do with the death camps.

That's a very strange reason for killing so many people.

Jeff Marzano

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 28, 2012 4:53:35 PM PDT
Jeff Marzano says:
Joe Anthony says:

[In Hitler's autobiography he expresses much contempt for the Slavic peoples as part of his master-race philosophy.]

What's the name of this book ?

Jeff Marzano

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 28, 2012 5:02:47 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Mar 28, 2012 5:07:37 PM PDT
Jeff Marzano says:
Joe Anthony says:

[By purging Germany of Jewish scientists, the Nazis pretty much gave the atomic bomb to America.]

It's very interesting how everything happened with World War II and how it ended dramatically with the two atomic bomb blasts in Japan.

We can see the hand of fate in these events.

Fringe author Joseph Farrell talks about how the Nazis had studied ancient manuscripts to try to rediscover the lost sciences of ancient cultures and use them to create super weapons.

There's the legend of their Bell device which seems to have been based on the Vimana from the Hindu myths. A cylinder was placed inside another cylinder with a layer of Xerum 525 in between. The cylinders were then rotated in opposite directions at very high speeds.

According to the legends plants placed near this device would age and decay very rapidly. I suppose people would too.

Anyway Farrell talks about alchemy and exotic forms of matter like the philosopher's stone.

Farrell and Nick Cook think the Nazis were on the verge of creating weapons that are potentially much more dangerous than nuclear if that can even be imagined.

The alchemists of old believed that God is an alchemist who created the universe by converting energy into matter.

The stars reverse this process as does a hydrogen bomb.

Another legend is the Nazis were trying to find a guy by the name of Fulcanelli:

Fulcanelli: Master Alchemist: Le Mystere des Cathedrales, Esoteric Intrepretation of the Hermetic Symbols of The Great Work (Le Mystere Des ... of the Hermetic Symbols of Great Work)

They felt that Fulcanelli knew how to unleash the power of atomic energy.

That book is very strange. This Fulcanelli guy appears to have been a real alchemist.

Jeff Marzano

The Philosopher's Stone: Alchemy and the Secret Research for Exotic Matter

The Hunt for Zero Point: Inside the Classified World of Antigravity Technology

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 28, 2012 5:03:10 PM PDT
Joe Anthony says:
@Jeff Marzano:

Hitler's autobiography is "Mien Kampf" or "My Struggle"; an excellent insight into the mind of Hitler; although parts of it are sickening. I wouldn't advise reading it on a full stomach.

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 28, 2012 5:08:48 PM PDT
Jeff Marzano says:
Joe Anthony says:

[Hitler's autobiography is "Mien Kampf" or "My Struggle"]

OK yes I have read it. Fascinating.

Jeff Marzano

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 28, 2012 5:18:40 PM PDT
Hi Joe Anthony,

Your points are well taken. While both Germany and Italy had a Judeo-Christian background, the level of Axis atrocities in WW II was on a scale not heretofore seen, and seemed to permeate all levels of the military to an extent that is astounding.

I just don't feel we in the West can get off scott-free because "it was the 19th Century and that was what was done then." I would hope that the Judeo-Christian ethic served somewhat as a limiter. However, the deeper I dig into 19th Century military history, the more concerned I grow about the demons that lurk deep in all of us.

Thanks for your post - I feel better! I can get pretty upset about 19th Century imperialism...

Posted on Mar 28, 2012 5:30:32 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Mar 28, 2012 5:35:30 PM PDT
A couple of have inquired about "Who is this Ludendorff?" He is General Erich Ludendorff, German Chief of Staff in the late WW I period. He and Paul von Hindenburg formed a team, first in the East against Russia in the 1914-'16 timeframe, then in the West from 1916-'18. Many in the West feel he was the real brains of the WW I German War effort, particularly in 1916-'18. He was the master strategist; Hindenburg was more or less the field commander and the inspirational leader.

Ludendorff had a great reputation post-war in Germany for his WW I leadership, and by the early 1920s was quite disillusioned with the Weimar Republic. He was ripe to be influenced by the major change of direction offered by the upstart Nazis, and Hitler made full use of his visibility and stature for the "Beer Hall Putsch." However, it failed and Ludendorff in turn became disillusioned with Naziism. He pulled out of politics, faded from the limelight, and died somewhat alone and unlamented ( I can't remember the date he died but I believe it was the early 1930s).

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 28, 2012 5:33:30 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Mar 28, 2012 5:37:02 PM PDT
Joe Anthony says:
@High Plains Drifter:

I don't say that Britain, France and America get off "scott-free". There does, however, seem to be a limit as to how far the British, for example, would go. Certainly, the British weren't kind to Ireland or India. My point is whether or not the British could have or would have been able to sustain the systematic massacre of 6 million people which is what the Germans did; or massacre 2 million while also committing horrible crimes against women, like the Japanese did in China.

As I see it, it's not just a Christian moral center (because as you say, the Germans were Christians too), but also that the British had more of a system and tradition of democracy in place.

As for America, the genocide against Native Americans seems to have been quite harsh. I can't say that it's not comparable to the holocaust. I often wonder if there could have been a way for the two very different cultures (White men and Indians) to co-exist peacefully. Maybe, there were too many differences concerning religion, values, life-style, use of land and concepts of land ownership.

Posted on Mar 28, 2012 5:42:04 PM PDT
HI JA,

I agree - I don't think the democratic systems of the 20th Century Western Allied powers would have allowed for the systematic perpetuation of the slaughter of millions.

But given the span of 6,000 years of recorded history, 200 years is not a long time. What we in the West allowed to happen in the pursuit of empires in the 19th Century (not long ago!) really distresses me.

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 28, 2012 6:21:17 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Mar 28, 2012 6:31:23 PM PDT
Rachel says:
Joe Antony:

AH's war against the Jews was an incredible uniting force for his nation building, but also a great mistake because trains that should be used for the war, were used to transport mostly Jews and others to concentration camps. The war behind THE WAR, was a great tragedy for the Jews and his failure too.

Hey, we are still here and thriving despite the losses and pain it entailed. That we don't forgive or forget, but we go forward nonetheless.

Haber is a good example of a fantastic German Jew who loved his government and made it all possible as a chemist to help win the war. As I said above, his wife committed suicide when she heard what he was doing to kill people. Yet, too, he would not have predicted what they would do later with his other product Zyklon B, that came later.

yes, it would be a horrible world if AH won, but the saying goes what goes around comes around. He hatred, bit him in his tail and he is the one that is no more here. Thank goodness not even a grave for Neo- Nazis to go an worship the place. That is why the bunker was also made unnoticeable.
The Federal German government after the war was keen to the de-Nazification project that later on was abandoned because of the needs of the Cold War. I find that name as misnomer because, retrospectively we know that is was anything but Cold Do you agree?

Rachel

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 28, 2012 6:27:23 PM PDT
Rachel says:
Joe Anthony:

We still appreciate those, though Wagner would be a question because of his own view. One can't appreciate even music without a context of who the author was or is.

There is the story, of Hitler ordering to take away the statue of Moses Mendelssohn, who has there with other musicians I think in a roof. The worker said he would not be able to recognize who was Mendelssohn among those statues. The answer was: look at the one which has the longest nose.
Can you guess which statue was taken away instead of Mendelssohn's?

Rachel

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 28, 2012 6:30:46 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Mar 28, 2012 6:37:28 PM PDT
Rachel says:
John M. Lane:

Germans have a lot to be proud off. Please don't carry a bag of guilt that is not yours!
Yes, he was a draft dodger because he was scared, what made him be stronger? His experience in the war let to blindness. In the Second he would be sheltered and he himself would not be fighting, thought he visited fronts.

Also one of his mistakes was to mettle in the army when he decided a general should be demoted and did so. That the army could not stand, and that is the moment when all Germans lost their civil rights. I think that is is one of the sources of the several people who went after HItler to remove him from power later. and failed. AH Had a third sense of when a threat was going to happen, he would never arrive at the time he said,but before or after. The mistake in the last attempt was the placement of the suitcase, if I remember correctly.

Sadly, too, antisemitism was not the property of the Germans only, it is a spreading contagious virus that existed on most of Europe. Horrifyingly, it is rising now again. I find this scary to say the least.

Love always.
Rachel
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