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2 WWII questions

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Posted on Mar 30, 2016 8:43:29 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Mar 30, 2016 11:49:48 AM PDT
Jeff Marzano says:
The Nazis were a cult. They were not a political party in any conventional sense of that term.

Unlike places like Egypt and Greece which had mythologies of lost ancestors who were far superior to everyone else, Germany didn't have that type of history as much. They needed legends and a justification for viewing the rest of the world as inferior to the German master race.

The Nazis found the basis for their master race idea in the writings of people like Helena Blavatsky. Blavatsky apparently thought she was in communication with some sort of spirit guides or ascended masters who told her about the Atlantean super race. I don't think Blavatsky was a racist like the Nazis but her book The Secret Doctrine contains anti Christianity overtones.

Hitler and the Nazis used those types of ideas to conclude that the German people were the descendants of the gods of Thule which sounds like a German version of Atlantis. However the gods of Thule contaminated their pure blood by intermarrying with inferior mortals. The Nazis were trying to purify the German bloodline through a process of extermination and sterilization that would take hundreds of years. I guess that's what they were trying to do with the death camps since they felt the Jews were at the very bottom of the gene pool.

Since the Germans were the master race this gave them the justification to take living space away from other countries. In fact according to their master race ideology if they did not do this the German race would die out instead.

There was a Nazi research group called the Ahnenerbe which came up with these sorts of ideas based on what they said was archaeological research. Assien Bohmers was one of those so called archaeologists. These people said the Neanderthals died out because the Cro-Magnon race was superior or something like that. So they felt there was a historical precedent for a superior race forcing inferior races into extinction.

There's major problems with using physical characteristics like blond hair and blue eyes to determine someone's ancestry. Another strange fact is Hitler and his Nazi leadership did not have any of the physical characteristics they associated with the pure Germanic heritage. Himmler himself would not have been allowed into the SS based on his own restrictions for SS membership.

Hitler didn't buy into the occult based theories as much as Himmler and Hess. But they all definitely bought into the master race idea and the goal of completely exterminating the Jewish race. These types of ideas are expressed in Hitler's manifesto Mein Kampf which was the Nazi bible.

It was theories like this that decisions that led to the deaths of many millions of people were based upon.

Posted on Mar 30, 2016 6:51:17 AM PDT
joaniepony says:

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 20, 2015 2:26:35 PM PST
[Deleted by the author on Dec 2, 2015 1:10:37 PM PST]

Posted on May 10, 2013 5:19:39 PM PDT
New Book - we recently published our Aunt's diary which she kept growing up as a teenager in war torn Munich as a member of the Hitler Youth. She started it in late 1939 and continued until mid 1946. It provides a unique first person account of events as they happened and thought you might like to know it exists. The title is "Wolfhilde's Hitler Youth Diary 1939-1946", the book's FB page is at Thanks, Doug. Wolfhilde's Hitler Youth Diary 1939-1946

Posted on Mar 3, 2013 10:53:05 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Apr 2, 2016 7:07:56 AM PDT
Steelers fan says:
Himmler, the most dreaded figure in Nazi Germany, ended up a coward and a turncoat. The "true Henry", having been crossed off by Hitler for his perceived betrayal, ended up on the Danish border with phony papers. His identity was, of course, unmistakable. Neither the Allies nor the post-Hitler German government wanted anything to do with him. In British custody, he cheated the hangman (as did Goering).

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 27, 2013 11:01:43 AM PST
F. Gleaves says:
If Himmler was kinky, he didn't leave any witnesses behind to talk.

He was a workaholic with a wife and daughter - and two illegitimate children in WW2 with his secretary. Very much into liquidating 'degenerate' individuals and races. Also a 'Mystic' promoting a Nordic Pagan religion (Thor, etc) while sponsoring searches for the Holy Grail, Spear of Destiny etc.

He only got Hitler to approve eliminating Roehm in mid-1934 after Roehm talked too much about taking over the 100,000 man Army with his 3,000,000 Stormtroopers, throwing out the aristocrats and dividing up their big estates among the peasants, taking over the industries and Big Business.

So the Nazis had been in full control of Germany for 16 months, but they were only on the verge of the military expansion that would let them dominate Western Europe.

Posted on Jan 26, 2013 2:45:04 PM PST
patrick says:
I was sure that Himmler was hinky, no, I dont confuse him with Roehm, I know who Roehm was, and he was of course gone long before the Nazis reached their zenith.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 25, 2013 9:23:32 PM PST
F. Gleaves says:
Maybe you're thinking ot Ernst Röhm, the head of the SA? He and many of the Stumtrooper leadership were openly homosexual and said they were beyond bourgeois morality.

After having them killed by Himmler's SS and Gestapo in the Night of the Long Knives, Hitler had all gays sent straight to the death camps.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 25, 2013 5:36:22 PM PST
patrick says:
hes a gay himself!

and /or a pedophile, i think...him and J Edgar Hoover I often confuse, as to who was which, or both were both even maybe..

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 25, 2013 5:35:15 PM PST
patrick says:
to reflect upon the fact that ministers like Yonai, Suzuki, and Togo (members of the "Big Six" the most powerful men in Japan) who were "peace" advocates literally feared assassination for even broaching the idea of a peaceful approach.

reminds one of the situation regarding the Palestinians, or the anti-Israeli front nations in middle-east generally...if anyone stood up who really did advocate an equitable solution and thereby peace, his prospects are about the same as a goombah who turns witness against the mob..

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 23, 2013 5:01:48 PM PST
Heinrich Himmler ( head of the SS ) sent his own nephew to his death in a concentration camp because that nephew was gay.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 16, 2013 10:40:55 AM PST

To give you an idea of the virulence of the pro-war movement of the Japanese during the war it is important to reflect upon the fact that ministers like Yonai, Suzuki, and Togo (members of the "Big Six" the most powerful men in Japan) who were "peace" advocates literally feared assassination for even broaching the idea of a peaceful approach. Nope, it weren't no peace and flowers country. They were racist in a way seldom seen in the West (far worse than the post reconstruction South) it is amazing. The true miracle in all of this is that some Japanese have and had the courage to write down what the country was like during and immediately before the war. Even now they get sued for slander. Even though the are vindicated in court the evidence gets quietly swept under the rug due to the cost of fighting these groundless slander suits. It was an ugly place for a people to be in. The scary thing about a place like Germany is that it is an object lesson in human behavior, not just special case human behavior, but general educated humans, very close in outlook to most people on the planet. If it can happen there it can happen anywhere. Anywhere.

Although, I think you have a good point Joe, not enough has been written about the Tokko or the Kempeitai (sp?) and their effect on pre-war Japan. It sure wiped out communism in Japan. But I have read so little about it. I think there is some interesting stuff in Japanese about it but not so much translated stuff. Suggestions? Not that I have time to read it.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 16, 2013 9:40:01 AM PST
Joe Hill says:
"Only one Japanese person was ever executed for treason by Japan during WWII. This is a more difficult area because the Japanese military generally carried out extra-judicial killings for anybody who opposed them overtly, and so the record keeping was minimal. There was far more intense social pressure to conform and not disgrace the family in Japan, and so more of this tendency to not stick out and oppose the government. And so there is almost no record of any significant dissident opposition to the Japanese military government during WWII. "

This is somewhat of a stereotypic generalization, as throughout the interwar period there were military-backed assassinations of those who opposed (or were perceived to oppose) Japan's military. The Japanese Communist Party (whose very existence belies the myth of Japan as monolithic) was against the war. Additionally, over 70,000 Japanese were arrested, many by the Tokko (Thought Police) under Japan's Public Safety Preservation Law.

So, despite the allegation that "there is almost no record" of Japanese dissent, it did exist, and people were arrested.

Posted on Jan 16, 2013 8:36:37 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Jan 16, 2013 4:30:46 PM PST

re Japan, there was more societal pressure from what I understand. Yet the circumstances were so similar, heavy propaganda, the existence of a police state, predestination to greatness, racial superiority (Yamato people) etc. Perhaps the difference was their ready isolation from other peoples and cultures. The "other people" were across the ocean: "somewhere over there". They were faceless, alien, unknown, not Japanese. For the Germans it was definitely not the case. There were British, French, Italians, Belgians, etc., next to your country, indeed, in your country. Thus, a German dissident had a much more relatable cause to fight for. Just musings, because I really don't know. But I bet people have studied it.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 16, 2013 8:30:22 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Jan 16, 2013 4:34:07 PM PST

The discussion wasn't really about the book, it was about an analysis of a clash between a civilization and another civilization as well as primitive hunter-gatherer tribal societies and perhaps the role of certain disease patterns and the effects on a society might be. I merely pointed out that there are flaws in any such thesis and that someone like Mann is hardly qualified to make that determination or the analyze the research, he is not a micro biologist, an MD, a tropical disease specialist, a molecular biologist, or a biologist of any kind. That places distinct limitations on a) his knowledge base, b) his ability to acquire the knowledge base, & c) his ability to analyze what he is looking at. Granted he may be looking at other secondary sources, but we know that he has no ability to weed out the wheat from the chaff (not being qualified to do so) so any such conclusions would be suspect from the word go.

Indentured servitude was replaced because it was expensive, lasted only a fixed period, cost land, did not play into notions of racial stereotyping, presented escape issues (indentured servants blending in easily if they just flat out run away), and was subject to extreme risk (See, Bacon's rebellion, and dozens more like it). These are more probable explanations, especially in view of the absolute medical and epidemiological ignorance of the time. It should also be pointed out that indentured servants tended to be tradesmen and apprentices aimed at skilled trades. Much more useful in the more compact, urbanized, industrial (if that word can be applied) North. Simply, there were not very many large plantations requiring massed amounts of ignorant labor in the North. In the South, that was the basis of the economy. That "what and the why" was tied, as it always is, to issues of economics, not epidemiology of which they had no understanding. Malaria! I am not even remotely convinced in view of the many more likely reasons. Slaves were used because, they had no skills, they were cheap, they lasted forever and were easily replaced in the geographically closer South, were easily identified, and it simply made more economic sense. Then it became away of life. I very much doubt that malaria had bupkiss to do with it. Certainly there isn't a whole lot of colonial evidence of it. One can also point out that Africans aren't all that resistant to the disease either, given that there were over a 100 million cases of malaria in Africa last year, despite modern anti-malarials, an understanding of the disease, mosquito abatement programs, nets, and various other treatment and prevention strategies. In other words, prove it.

Again, this isn't about a book, much of this has be postulated for years. It never caught steam because it was not particularly validatable and other better explanations existed..

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 16, 2013 5:43:37 AM PST
In Otto Friedrich's Blood and Iron , the third minibiography discusses the history of the German resistance to Hitler and the role played by Helmuth James von Moltke, the executed great-great-nephew of the field marshal.

Hava Kohav Beller's Restless Conscience, The [VHS] contains numerous interviews, including an extensive one with the widow of Helmuth James.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 15, 2013 11:53:55 PM PST
F. Gleaves says:

The Spanish, Dutch and Portuguese worked their slaves to death, Indian or African. The British were somewhat better. I'm not so sure about the French. Slaves were cheap and expendable until Britain and the US ended the importation of slaves in the early 19th century. As the British forcibly ended the Latin American slave trade the lives of slaves there became worth something as well.

By the 1850's American slaves could feel they were better off than the Irish, who were free - to starve.
Slaves were valuable property, guaranteed some sort of shelter and enough to eat.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 15, 2013 10:33:51 PM PST
patrick says:
yes, I only just read about that example of one Japanese national only executed for treason by Japan during WW2, its described in "Facing Defeat"...its relevance being what it seemed to say about the Japanese b4 defeat and occupation.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 15, 2013 10:28:16 PM PST
DarthRad says:

Well, yes, dissident Germans did not get very far, simply because those evil Nazis had this nasty habit of chopping off the heads of any German dissidents they caught, e.g., Sophie Scholl and her brother and others in their band of brave, idealistic student dissidents:

Sophie Scholl and the White Rose

Sophie Scholl - The Final Days

While not representative of the German people as a whole, it is equally a lie that ALL GERMANS SUPPORTED Hitler. The numbers of Germans killed or imprisoned for opposing Hitler are into the hundreds of thousands.

Only one Japanese person was ever executed for treason by Japan during WWII. This is a more difficult area because the Japanese military generally carried out extra-judicial killings for anybody who opposed them overtly, and so the record keeping was minimal. There was far more intense social pressure to conform and not disgrace the family in Japan, and so more of this tendency to not stick out and oppose the government. And so there is almost no record of any significant dissident opposition to the Japanese military government during WWII.

Posted on Jan 15, 2013 10:17:34 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Jan 15, 2013 11:41:33 PM PST
DarthRad says:

My argument is very simple and utterly logical. You cannot criticize a book that you have never read, unless you insist on intellectual dishonesty and behaving like a stupid internet troll.

I have read "Mein Kampf", I have read the Bible. I thought I knew all there was to know about the Battle of Midway until "Shattered Sword" showed up, and I decided to read it. As you mentioned, I recommended that book to you. I also long ago pointed out the book "The Day Man Lost Hiroshima" as the best book ever (written by Japanese) that explains why the Japanese military was NOT going to surrender short of a bloody invasion or the atomic bombs being dropped.

You should read "1491" before trashing it. You will find the research and the logic expressed in that book to be utterly impeccable, just like "Shattered Sword". "Shattered Sword" was new and revealing simply because of the new Japanese sources that it used, which previous historians did not have access to.

There is actually nothing truly new in "1491". Most of the research work was done years ago, most of the revealing historical accounts written centuries ago and set aside in libraries and ignored, especially by those high school textbook writers who took the shortcut of just regurgitating standard American history mythology and perpetuating mistakes and stereotypes. All Mann has done is write down for the lay public what has been known by researchers and experts in the anthropology and pre-Columbian history fields for some decades now.

As for malaria, it isn't that hard to understand. Mosquitos and falciparum are both sensitive to cold temperatures. They don't do well in cold weather. That's why malaria only exists in tropical or warm climates. Warm, moist climates, since the mosquito vector requires standing water to breed.

In a nutshell, this is why malaria has never been a problem in Northern Europe or in most of the Northern states of the United States. And why it was prevalent in Africa and parts of the Mediterranean, and in the Deep South of the United States (it was even worse of a problem in the tropical Carribeans and South and Central Americas).

Malaria very much explains why an economically more sensible and culturally well accepted system such as European indentured servants would become replaced by a potentially more dangerous and difficult to control system of unwilling African slaves in the Deep South, and in the Carribeans, and in South and Central America. Moreover, it explains why the local Indians, who were also enslaved by the Spaniards, came to be replaced by African slaves. The Spaniards for sure wanted only slaves, not indentured servants, but they ran out of Indians because of disease, and so they turned to African slaves, who were hardier against malaria .

Look at all the countries and zones where African slavery proliferated, and where the imported Africans became a permanent part of the local population, and they are the warm and wet malaria zones.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 15, 2013 9:58:15 PM PST
patrick says:
there were 'moderates" doves and hawks in the Japanese govt, sure, but nom come to think of it, Ive never heard of a 'resistance" of dissidents in Japan that existed in Germany, even though in Germany I dont think many of them got far or achieved much materially...

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 15, 2013 9:47:50 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Jan 15, 2013 9:49:19 PM PST

Thanks for your razor sharp wit and irrefutable logic all buttressed with the usual unsupported nonsense. I really am sorry that you are unable to refute the points.

In short, I have enjoyed your splenetic exhalations. So edifying. Please do continue. I can't wait to see what comes next. Please do continue my education on malaria.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 15, 2013 9:35:59 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Jan 15, 2013 10:17:15 PM PST
F. Gleaves says:

I was just watching a History Channel program on the Sahara which made the point that drought was behind the rise of most civilizations. Once they made the transition from hunter-gatherers to an agrarian lifestyle, developing irrigation led to large communities and further advances.

Encountering climatic adversity which nearly wiped out Homo sapiens about 60,000 years ago is said to have been responsible for developing the skills which gave Cro-Magnon man an advantage over the Neanderthal.

In general the American Indians encountered by the English had never fully made the transition from hunter-gatherers to agrarian settlements, as population density was low enough that game remained plentiful.

The Mound-Builders were agricultural tribes which flourished from Natchez on the Lower Mississippi to Ohio, through Georgia and west of Lake Superior from about 3500 BC to around 1600 AD.

Serpent Mound at 1348' long, 20' wide and 3' high is the world's largest effigy mound. They also built burial mounds and temple platform mounds, like Emerald Mound near Stanton, Mississippi covering 8 acres and rising to 35' to 65'.

The largest of their flat-topped pyramidal earthworks, over 100 feet tall, is Monks Mound at Cahokia Indian Mounds in Collinsville, Illinois. At its peak about 1150 AD, Cahokia was an urban settlement with 20,000-30,000 people and 120 mounds in 8 square miles.

The Mound-Builders practiced intensive maize cultivation.

The Hernando DeSoto expediton encountered the Natchez Bluffs Plaquemine culture in 1542, and barely escaped the battle. When the French explorer Sieur de LaSalle encountered them next in 1682 the Natchez had been greatly reduced by disease, said to be smallpox and influenza.

French Jesuit missionary Maturin Le Petit described the Natchez sun-worship ceremonies in the temples on the platform mounds in 1730; within a year they were defeated in war with the French and were dispersed or sold into slavery. The northern mound-builders had already fallen to the Crees, Algonquins and Iroquois by about 1600; the Erie decimated and assimilated by the Iroquois in 1656 may have been related to them.

They seem to have observed the stars and worked nearly pure copper mined from north and south of Lake Superior, making tempered copper tools and knives. They also made pottery, and there has even been evidence of them weaving textiles. Some of their implements buried in the mounds have symbols on them.

Of course alternate History Channel programming explains the rise of the Mound-Builders and other civilizations as the result of contacts with "Ancient Aliens" (TM).

The French ethnologist, naturalist and historian Antoine-Simon Le Page du Pratz lived in Louisiana from 1718-1734 and lived among the Natchez and allied Yazoo tribes. He wrote in his Histoire de la Louisiane of the Yazoo explorer Moncacht-Apé, who in the late 17th century set out alone after the death of his family in search of the origins of his people. Their legends told of reaching the Pacific northwest by a land bridge from Asia.

Moncacht-Apé (it means "the killer of pain and fatigue") first traveled northward from his native Mississippi, up the Mississippi and Ohio rivers and eventually past Niagara Falls to the coast of the North Atlantic. From there, he doubled back to the Mississippi, then turned north up the Missouri River to its headwaters in Montana, and down another river to the Columbia and the shores of the Pacific.

Lewis and Clark took an English translation of his story on their expedition more than a century later.

Posted on Jan 15, 2013 5:42:15 PM PST
DarthRad says:

It's impossible to argue against you because I would have to reprint the entire contents of "1491" to explain to you in detail all of Charles Mann's carefully researched and reasoned arguments.

Meanwhile, you just keep making stuff up to trash the book. Nothing you have said about the book is not addressed in the book itself. READ THE BOOK.

Read the book and stop making stupid comments about stuff which you just simply have not bothered to learn anything about. If you ever did read the book, and had one iota of honesty, you would go back and delete every single one of your incredibly mis-infomed and stupid comments about the book.

I find it appalling that you claim to be a patent attorney. People like you know nothing about learning about new stuff and opening their minds to new information. You sit there in your office throne room, comfortable and safe in your storehouse of old knowledge, unwilling to learn anything new.

Yep, the history of the world is filled with people like you. Galileo's Church tormentors, the Flat Earth people, etc.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 15, 2013 1:48:47 PM PST
Debunker says:
Clearly in the running for dumbest post of the year.
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