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Customer Discussions > History forum

Are the Prussians gone for good?


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Showing 26-50 of 226 posts in this discussion
In reply to an earlier post on Dec 5, 2009 7:50:36 PM PST
[Deleted by Amazon on Feb 16, 2010 3:37:13 PM PST]

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 5, 2009 8:14:46 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 5, 2009 8:22:36 PM PST
Suet says:
Izzie, please look up 'High German consonant shift' in Wikipedia (or wherever else you wish). I didn't look it up before I posted because I already knew it. But I have now, and Wikipedia explains it quite well. You have a surprise in store.

I don't know what you mean by "it's always semantics with Suet." I said that the split between northern (Low) and southern (High) German took place in the early centuries AD, and it did. I said it had nothing to do with sailors, and it didn't. I said that Low German was the official language of Prussia until the 16th century, and it was. Look up 'Low German'. Plattdeutsch was and is a group of dialects.

Posted on Dec 5, 2009 8:30:58 PM PST
DRussel says:
No. Prussia shall not come back. The entire German speaking population of Prussia was exterminated after World War II.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 5, 2009 8:51:05 PM PST
[Deleted by Amazon on Feb 16, 2010 3:37:13 PM PST]

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 5, 2009 8:51:27 PM PST
[Deleted by Amazon on Feb 16, 2010 3:37:13 PM PST]

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 5, 2009 8:55:52 PM PST
Suet says:
DRussel, it depends what you mean by 'Prussia'. German speaking people from east of the Oder - including Silesia as well as East and West Prussia - were driven out and many died. The people of Brandenburg, Mecklenburg etc., whom most would call 'Prussian', stayed where they were. No entire population was exterminated.

Posted on Dec 5, 2009 9:06:25 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 5, 2009 9:06:37 PM PST
Isabella says,
It is about the high German (mountains) low German-Platt (low lands) issue that a previous poster brought up.
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I may be wrong about high german being from the mountains, but I do know the "platt" in plattdeutsch means flat...as in flatlands, lowlands (platte:plate). My German Teacher spoke an Ostfriesland dialect, (verystrange) but I remember her saying it was like low german or platt deutsch, now she may be wrong, but thats what I was told.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 5, 2009 9:10:47 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 5, 2009 9:15:26 PM PST
Suet says:
No, Isabella, I really didn't look it up. I have an interest in philology and some knowledge of German. Everything I said in my first post on this subject at 5:58 PM PST, to which you strongly objected, is correct and still stands.

Since you seem to be interested in the derivation of 'Platt' and 'Hoch', I will add that the former does indeed refer to the northern LOWlands, and the latter to the southern HIGHlands of Germany.

I have no more to add.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 5, 2009 9:20:04 PM PST
[Deleted by Amazon on Feb 16, 2010 3:37:13 PM PST]

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 5, 2009 9:26:42 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 5, 2009 9:35:20 PM PST
Suet says:
Well, Isabella, perhaps I will just add this ...

High German

German as indigenously spoken and written in Austria, Switzerland, and central and southern Germany.
The standard variety of German used as the official language in Germany and Austria and as one of the official languages in Switzerland.
[Translation of German Hochdeutsch : hoch, high (from the mountainous terrain of the area in which it originated) + Deutsch, German.]

http://www.answers.com/topic/high-german

P.S. I'm not a dimwit ;o)

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 5, 2009 9:43:13 PM PST
[Deleted by Amazon on Feb 16, 2010 3:37:13 PM PST]

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 5, 2009 10:14:34 PM PST
[Deleted by Amazon on Feb 16, 2010 3:37:13 PM PST]

Posted on Dec 5, 2009 11:37:19 PM PST
Edmund Marks says:
Back in the '80s I worked on a U.S. produced blood analyzer that had a two line display and was operated by responding to prompts using "yes" and "no" keys" with a "?" key for more information. We had key overlays that had "ja" and "nein" applied. We did two versions of translations into German, one for the Swiss market, and one for the majority of the West German market. I was told that there was insufficient market demand for the minority West German and Dutch dialect, but that they would understand what we produced.

Things could have been worse. We used a Venezualan dialect for the Spanish version for sale to South America, but we could have done Castillian, Mexican and Caribbean island dialect versions also.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 5, 2009 11:42:01 PM PST
This is an intriguing discussion, as I was always curious about Low German, High German, Old English, Middle English, etc. I just finished a book on the Kress family from the Nuremberg area (Kress von Kressenstein to be more accurate), who donated half of a 3,000-piece art collection to the US National Gallery of Art, and the other half to over 90 institutions throughout the US. I wish to add a note if I may regarding Bohemia to the discussion.
According to the Czech chronicler Wenzeslaus Hagecius , in 883 AD, a messenger sent from Duke Hostiwit on horseback arrived at the Krzes (an anagram of Kress) encampment at Budin in Bohemia (today's Czech Republic) to summon their knights to aid the Duke against his enemy, Sukowslaw. "Although Sukowslaw had guarded himself at his castle with three hundred and fifty armed men, the warriors, under command of Duke Hostiwit, attacked the castle bravely." After four days of intense fighting, the castle was taken. "In the same year the duke allowed Krzes to build a manor near the river Eger and presented him with many arable lands. This place was given the name of Krzesein (or Kressenstein)."
The invasions by the Ottoman Turks in the later Middle Ages caused many Central and East European migrations and alliances, (as did the Mongol invasions centuries before), scattering many in their wake. Languages collided and metamorphed as well, along with the names of provinces and regions. The militaristic nature evolved in order to survive. What became Germany is as varied and peculiar in language, as its terrain and culture. It's hard for American's to appreciate how borders in Europe (check out a good Historicial Atlas) have shifted, merged, disappeared, and appeared almost miraculously. Who would have predicted in 1945 that Germany would be reunified? After two visits, I can't wait to go back and follow the trail of Kress von Kressenstein ancestors.
Lastly, what do you think of Joseph Campbell's contributions to philology in his research like "The Power of Myth"? Thanks for listening.

Posted on Dec 6, 2009 12:37:19 AM PST
rebelinblue says:
there must still be prussians about or the decendants of but whats left of it is just a part of germany like yorkshire is a part of the uk but when you hear the name prussian you cant help but think of spikey helmets sausages and trouble which is probably very unfair, no i think its passed into history for good.though i am led to believe there are those in germany who would like it back and the land east of the oder but cant see it happening now.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 6, 2009 12:56:05 AM PST
[Deleted by Amazon on Feb 16, 2010 3:37:11 PM PST]

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 6, 2009 7:05:55 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 6, 2009 8:46:31 AM PST
Suet says:
Dear Isabella,

I know there are many thriving dialects of German, some of them barely if at all comprehensible to each other. Nevertheless, linguists classify all the dialects (and by extension, related languages such as Dutch, Frisian and English) into two main groups:

1) Southern: Hochdeutsch / High German

2) Northern: Plattdeutsch / Low German.

The essential changes occurred in SOUTHERN dialects in the 3rd-5th centuries AD and affected certain consonants (I gave the example of English, Dutch and Low German 'water', but High German 'wasser'). These changes follow the Second or HIGH GERMAN Sound shift which was formulated by philologists in the early 19th century.

"The Second Sound Shift divides Germany into a smaller Northern part (without the sound shift) and a larger central and Southern part (with the sound shift). The border between the two regions approximates a line passing through Cologne and Berlin ..... Since the part of Germany where there was no Second Sound Shift are the North German Lowlands, their language is called Low German as distinct from High German. Because High German has been the official language even there for quite some time, and because Low German is too different from High German to mix easily with it, this region has become, in fact, bilingual."

http://www.lrz-muenchen.de/~hr/lang/dt-hist.html

I know from experience that it is futile to argue with what you think you know! However, the relevant point for this thread is that Plattdeutsch was the official language of Prussia until the 16th century.

P.S. If 'dimwit' is not a good English translation of 'Armleuchter', what is?

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 6, 2009 7:15:47 AM PST
[Deleted by Amazon on Dec 7, 2009 7:39:57 AM PST]

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 6, 2009 8:30:14 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 6, 2009 8:30:53 AM PST
Suet says:
Hi Izzie,

I believe I have traced the source of your confusion :)

Hochdeutsch

Linguistically and historically, it refers to the High German languages, which developed in the Southern uplands and the Alps.

Hochdeutsch is often used to refer to Standard German in daily (German) language, a confusing term since it collides with the linguistic meaning.
In the common meaning, "hoch" refers to "high" in a cultural or educational sense (sometimes pejoratively), while the linguistic term simply refers to the geography of Germany.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hochdeutsch

Posted on Dec 6, 2009 9:12:11 AM PST
Amadeus says:
Prussia will come back right after Italy gets back Nice and Corsica, both of which were Italian for most of history. Of course, you can always roll out the old "Italy is a mere geographic expression" quote by Metternich, but that is a sentiment that Italians have never shared.

The fact is Europe's borders are pretty much settled until the next European war, which the EU is supposed to prevent. We might see some shifting in the Balkans, but I doubt you'll see a resurrected Prussian state or even a real Prussian identity in Germany anytime soon. Of course, Prussian blood still flows in Northeastern German veins, so you never know.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 6, 2009 9:27:37 AM PST
Suet says:
I think there's no reason why (roughly) the northern half of Germany shouldn't be united into a single Land called Preussen if people wanted it, but they don't.

Posted on Dec 6, 2009 11:19:09 AM PST
briefcandle says:
Don't forget there's east low german and west low german, in prussia et al it is/was known as plautdietsch, and in one description is the german spoken in the vistula valley and around gdansk. the mennonites took it to US and canada. It's wiki page has lord's prayer comparison to hochdeutsch.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 6, 2009 12:32:35 PM PST
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In reply to an earlier post on Dec 6, 2009 12:37:55 PM PST
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In reply to an earlier post on Dec 6, 2009 12:42:20 PM PST
[Deleted by Amazon on Dec 7, 2009 7:35:55 AM PST]
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Discussion in:  History forum
Participants:  31
Total posts:  226
Initial post:  Nov 28, 2009
Latest post:  Mar 15, 2015

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