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USS Liberty


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Showing 51-75 of 205 posts in this discussion
In reply to an earlier post on Jul 26, 2012 11:51:55 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jul 26, 2012 11:57:26 PM PDT
patrick says:
Firstly , I think the official israeli explanation regarding a friendly-fire mistake is plausible..if armed forces anywhere can fire on their own people and their own allies, and if that is not even very uncommon, then they can fire on a foreign military ship which is not supposed to be there, and is in fact engaged in a military activity.
If it bears some resemblance to enemy vessels which might have been expected to appear in the area, too.

Its hardly surprsing that the Libertys men, who suffered badly in the attack at the hands of an ally, are in no mood to accept the Israeli version.
there IS/WAS some attempt at a motive to make plausible a deliberate Israeli attack..that the surveilance ship would pass its intel through the US embassy in Cairo, which leaked like a sieve security wise.
That sensitive Israeli military information would unintentionally fall into Arab hands via that US embassy.
Its thin, to explain such an off-coloured and politically dangerous move.
It seems to smack of risking setting fire to the entire forest, to burn off one twig.
Theres a lot of nonsense spoken and alleged about the incident and background to it, in the programs Ive seen on it. The wildest alleges that the 6th fleet , on hearing the frantic distress calls from Liberty, assumed that it must be under attack by Arab forces...and that their reaction was to bomb up F4s and/or A4s Tac-nuke, with Cairo as their target...that that mission was flown off, then recalled.
US flat-top sailors are said to testify to this...Im not sure that I even believe that it was ever said by 6th fleet sailors in any position to know anything, but if it was said, then I dont believe that it was a factual or truthful allegation.

then, more predictably, there are the Arab conspiracy theories about it...from the inventors and perfectors of the crackpot conspiracy theory, especially about Israel and America.
the story goes that the IDF carried out a mass execution of about 1000 Egyptian POWs, near the coast where Liberty was operating, that Liberty had witnessed this , and needed to be silenced to prevent it telling the story.
There is zero material evidence of this great mass-shooting of Arab POWs by the Israelis ever occuring, or even a smaller one, let alone the Israelis then needed to go around silencing friendly witnesses to it.

BTW...international Waters?
I think that you will find that the area was a declared war-zone/combat zone..that can extend beyond the combatants territorial waters.Always has done.

Posted on Jul 27, 2012 12:07:27 AM PDT
patrick says:
But the El Quseir was only 40 percent the size of Liberty (4000 vs. 10,400 tons). The El Quseir was an old, rustedout horse transport that bore about as much resemblance to the Liberty as a rusty VW does to a new Cadillac. The Liberty

For Christs sake...the British carrier aviators attacked one of their own town-class cruisers, declaring "Yep, its the Bismarck alright!!" ...they couldnt tell a 10000 ton 9 X 6in cruiser from a 40000 ton 8X 15" battleship..Didnt US carrier pilots try to sink the tanker Neosho and destroyer Sims themselves at Coral Sea, before the Japanese came along later and did it right?

Posted on Jul 27, 2012 7:25:35 AM PDT
Yo says:
The "fog of war" is not a plausible explanation when you can use the "Jews are evil" explanation instead.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 27, 2012 7:26:57 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jul 27, 2012 7:42:03 AM PDT
F. Gleaves says:
Patrick says:

'Theres a lot of nonsense spoken and alleged about the incident ...

The wildest alleges that the 6th fleet , on hearing the frantic distress calls from Liberty, assumed that it must be under attack by Arab forces...and that their reaction was to bomb up F4s and/or A4s Tac-nuke, with Cairo as their target...that that mission was flown off, then recalled.

US flat-top sailors are said to testify to this...Im not sure that I even believe that it was ever said by 6th fleet sailors in any position to know anything...'

It was said by a man from the USS America in the BBC video "Dead in the Water', which didn't mention that only the USS Saratoga launched aircraft (12 F-4s) in the first hour after getting word of the attack because flight operations on USS America had been halted for a Nuclear Training Exercise.

It was the BBC narrator who said that they were launched to attack Cairo, then a retired US official appears saying we didn't want any mushroom clouds and the flight was recalled.

But skillful editing made it seem he was confirming a Nuclear Attack was launched on Cairo, reducing BBC 'Documentaries' to pure Propaganda. Although worth mining for information if you can figure the true context.

There's alsothe matter of the Delayed Order.

'On the night of June 7 Washington time, early morning on June 8, 01:10Z or 3:10 AM local time, the Pentagon issued an order to 6th Fleet headquarters to tell the Liberty to come no closer than 100 nmi (120 mi; 190 km) to Israel, Syria, or the Sinai coast (Oren, p. 263). (pages 5 and Exhibit N, page 58).

'According to the Naval Court of Inquiry (p. 23 ff, p. 111 ff) and National Security Agency official history, the order to withdraw was not sent on the radio frequency that USS Liberty monitored for her orders until 15:25 Zulu, several hours after the attack, due to a long series of administrative and message routing problems.' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident

Posted on Jul 27, 2012 7:00:37 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jul 27, 2012 7:07:52 PM PDT
patrick says:
yes...AS IF any help sent to Liberty by 6th Fleet would consist of a mad retaliatory bombing run to Cairo...as if it would not consist of either a direct dash to help Liberty itself, or at the most abstract, an attack on an Egyptian airfield or naval vessels..
And needless to say, a non-WMD attack if that.

By this theory they would have taken off to raze Pyongyang, when the NKs boarded Pablo and started roughing everyone up.
In fact that probably if anything makes a little more sense than the Cairo story would...but not much more.

Id forgotten about the Egyptian armed-merchant ship's role in the Liberty affair, the report of the Israelis in that area being shelled from the sea by some Egyptian Scow..
totally adds to the plausibility of friendly-fire mistake...this stuff about "rusty VW vs shiny new Cadillac" is not very compelling, court-wise.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 27, 2012 7:43:28 PM PDT
Bryan Borich says:
<the report of the Israelis in that area being shelled from the sea by some Egyptian Scow..totally adds to the plausibility of friendly-fire mistake>

One one tend to think a pilot could recognize the difference between a .50cal and a 5-inch gun.

[just saying]

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 28, 2012 5:35:00 AM PDT
F. Gleaves says:
Captain Yafteh Spector, who later took part in the attack on the Iraqi reactor and retired a General in the IAF, said he mistook the parabolic antenna on the foreward deck for a gun mount.

He was expecting the ship to open fire and after making two orbits was certain it had no Israeli markings.

I don't know what would have happened if it'd been a Soviet ship!

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 28, 2012 6:30:57 AM PDT
jews are not evil
they just violate the rules of war when it suits them

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 28, 2012 6:32:25 AM PDT
the usa flag was well lit and standing straight out
much bigger than any antenna

it was a deliberate attack to stop the usa from hearing what the israeli military was saying on their comms

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 28, 2012 10:17:50 AM PDT
Bryan Borich says:
Haven't heard that excuse before.

>I don't know what would have happened if it'd been a Soviet ship!

They might have had better support from the aircraft carriers :)

Posted on Jul 28, 2012 10:56:21 AM PDT
Sock Puppet says:
Being in denial will not help you. Events such as this during war are for a reason. The US has done this many times. Blaming the other side for the provocation. To focus American attention on Cairo. LBJ, the most corrupt and self serving of all presidents, was running the show. The Liberty sailors are lucky the Americans didn't join in the attack, which, would most likely happen today, with the statement of, " leave no witnesses. Not even a Seagull. "

Posted on Jul 28, 2012 1:07:33 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jul 28, 2012 1:08:02 PM PDT
J. Schwarz says:
[Customers don't think this post adds to the discussion. Show post anyway. Show all unhelpful posts.]

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 28, 2012 1:11:29 PM PDT
J. Schwarz says:
Thanks for knowing absolutely nothing. Let me know when you get your pilots license along with your thinking cap.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 28, 2012 1:45:29 PM PDT
they were ordered not to return fire when they reported the attack up the command chain

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 28, 2012 1:45:57 PM PDT
liberty
pollard
many more
how much d oyou need to be stuck worthy

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 28, 2012 3:01:22 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jul 29, 2012 4:41:42 AM PDT
J. Schwarz says:
And usually people who focus on the bad of a religion are usually dimwitted bigots not smart enough to see exactly what they are. Now if you were not a bigot you would be able to see all the good things Jews have done for the world and you. I could list a hundred things you have never even thought of because bigoted people are unable to think. But do I really want to instruct a bigot with a closed mind who for the most part is most likely a loser? Maybe its time you learned for yourself. Just some hints bright one. The portable x ray machines used on the US battlefields to save American lives. Bandages to save US troops that heal wounds. Anti missile rocket shields put on Abrams tanks. Extremely effective personal armor for the troops that have saved many lives. Drones, an Israeli company bought by the CIA to make the Predator. Visual imaging systems being installed in US top of the line fighters made in Israel and developed there. Go into any US hospital and the tech to save your rear end is most likely Israeli tech. Robotic catherization to save your butt, Israeli tech. Robotic deep brain and spine machinery, just FDA approved. Intel, IBM, Dell, Apple, Cisco, Motorola all have research facilities in Israel, the second Silicon Valley. Phillips electronics and Intel looking to open more facilities in Israel. They know where the brains are. Teva's copaxone to help MS sufferers, Israel, FDA trials for stem cell renewal to save victims of radiation poisoning, Israel. Deep brain stimulation to give stroke victims a bigger window to recover from brain injury as an alternative to drugs. The Martian Rover, Israeli logarithms. AOL IM invented in Israel. The development of the first flash drive, Israel. Xbox Kinect, Israel. Did I mention Windows chips that run many computers? Israel. The pill cam. New discoveries to specifically kill cancer cells in the body. Nano research to bring tiny robots into the body to repair organs. A new transistor just developed that will make tablets equivalent to lap tops. I could go on all day but with bigots it usually goes in the ears and comes out the other end. Dumb and dumberer.

Posted on Jul 28, 2012 3:18:01 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jul 28, 2012 4:18:04 PM PDT
J. Schwarz says:
Ya know the US makes military mistakes everyday in Afghanistan and wherever else our military is. We constantly kill innocent civilians and even our own and the bigots are silent. Over a few decades ago the US bombed the Chinese embassy by mistake and killed some Chinese diplomats. The US apologized, paid reparations and the incident was over. Most people never even heard about it. Well with bigots, Jewish mistakes are never over because Jews are more than human and cannot make mistakes. The incident is over and whether you like it or not, tough. As for Pollard he was going to be given a slap on the wrist and let go, but his idiot wife opened her mouth on TV and the deal already made was off. He did a stupid thing, paid the price and horsepucky here is going to have to accept it. Now can I make myself any more clearer? Usually the biggest bigots and losers with nothing going for them are the biggest complainers.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 28, 2012 3:42:17 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jul 28, 2012 3:47:21 PM PDT
J. Schwarz says:
Andthehorseirodeontoo is not a bigot, just someone not intelligent enough to see where he is coming from, loser central. One surfer and one horse back rider. Why am I not impressed.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 28, 2012 3:48:30 PM PDT
J. Schwarz says:
Hey LAD tell us about the nuclear camels. We would all like to hear that tale. Not.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 28, 2012 6:14:58 PM PDT
[Deleted by Amazon on Aug 21, 2012 10:14:30 AM PDT]

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 28, 2012 6:54:08 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jul 29, 2012 1:00:40 PM PDT
John M. Lane says:
Opinions vary, but thanks, J. Schwarz.

I try to keep an open mind. None of the opposition seems to care about the US Marines murdered by Hezbollah when they bombed the barracks in Beirut, for example.

To me that's an indication of their agenda.

SNAFUs and "blue on blue" incidents happen all the time in combat. That's what the LIBERTY incident was, a SNAFU, in my opinion.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 28, 2012 9:14:47 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jul 28, 2012 10:03:45 PM PDT
Bryan Borich says:
>And usually people who focus on the bad of a religion are usually dimwitted bigots
>not smart enough to see exactly what they are.

I'd note that you are a big supporter of bigots then.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 28, 2012 9:17:42 PM PDT
Bryan Borich says:
>That's what the LIBERTY incident was, a SNAFU, in my opinion.

It might or might not have been, however there are enough unanswered questions of how the incident was dealt with to leave it open to debate.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 28, 2012 9:24:41 PM PDT
J. Schwarz says:
YOU? No not really.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 28, 2012 9:26:34 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jul 28, 2012 9:28:23 PM PDT
J. Schwarz says:
Well have fun debating yourself. In fact have fun master debating yourself. So to speak.
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Discussion in:  History forum
Participants:  28
Total posts:  205
Initial post:  Jul 24, 2012
Latest post:  Jan 4, 2013

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