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Can liberal American Jews still support Modern Israel? - the country has changed and is not what you think it is anymore.


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In reply to an earlier post on Nov 15, 2011 6:46:00 AM PST
It's like reading a paper, written by a high school student. Pure regurgitation of things, written by other people. For all of you guys who think that DarthRad is some kind of well informed genius-- No, he's not. He just reads books that are written to advocate his particular prejudices and worldview, and then repeats what he's read. There's not an original thought in his head, and he would be completely incapable of having a discussion about genuine principles, ethics, and values, such as Smallchief and I were having. DarthRad is a human parrot. Just offer him a cracker, and move on.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 15, 2011 7:13:03 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Nov 15, 2011 8:31:15 AM PST
L. King says:
Which kind of proves that anything that anne (or DarthRad) says, you can pretty much take the opposite to be the case.

On innumerable cases DarthRad had gotten his "facts" wrong.

In the case where Katzav was convicted, the court was presided by an Arab judge.

When Israel reunited both halves of it's capital Jerusalem after the 1967 war, all residents of the eastern portion of the city were offered Israeli citizenship.

Given that the stated policy of a Palestinian state would be to expel all Jews living in the West Bank, why would liberal Americans support a Palestinian state without supporting Israel, especially since Israel has not implemented a similar policy.

American liberals should roundly condemn the proposed apartheid state of Palestine, and point out that the democratic model used by Israel provides a far better role model for democratic governance.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 15, 2011 8:19:29 AM PST
One of the amusing things about DarthRad, is his blatantly misleading presentation of 'facts'. I especially liked the part, where he claims that Netenyahu was recommended, by Israeli police, for prosecution two times. He was not prosecuted, because the prosecutor didn't have evidence. DarthRad pointedly points out, that the prosecutor pointedly pointed out, that lack of evidence is not the same as being innocent.

So what makes that so funny? DarthRad says that Orthodox Jews are no better than Muslims, and have no respect for civil rights. Yet DarthRad demonstrates that he, himself, has no respect for civil rights. He has convicted Bibi, in his own mind, with no evidence! He has appointed himself as judge and prosecutor, with his wee willy winky as juror.

Perhaps DarthRad should simply work on complying with the western principles of civil rights, rather than pushing them on others, while pretending that he adheres to them, himself.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 15, 2011 9:07:36 AM PST
Sixties fan says:
May I say that there is no country where one human or another is not capable of corruption. Italy just lost Berlusconi.
THe USA is full of corrupt government individuals who have either been convicted or accused of something and either shown to be untrue, or it never comes to trial.
Second, some on your list are accused, not convicted.
Netanyahu, as I recall from an article, has been cleared of the accusations against him.
Haaretz, is not a pro Israel source. It in not an Israeli paper either.

Orginized crime, Mafia, Pornography, Communism,Nazis, ......well.....it does sound like any other country to me. How about you?

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 15, 2011 1:49:00 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Nov 15, 2011 2:01:40 PM PST
Rachel says:
Sixties:

That is the issue for some unfathomable reason Israel should have angels as leaders ,as people, as a country.

In some ways, we are NOT like other countries, We are the only Jewish country. In other ways, we are people like other people and you always would find good apples and bad apples in the same basket.
So The problem is targeting Israel only with this.

What does this show?

Jew hatred masked as Anti-Zionism.

Rachel

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 15, 2011 5:11:19 PM PST
Rachel,

I don't know if I would describe DarthRad's hatred for Jews to be masked. He did state that Orthodox Jews are no better than Muslims. And within the context that he said this, it is clear that he hates Muslims. So no, I don't think he's masking his hatred.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 15, 2011 5:32:08 PM PST
Rachel says:
Iscah dear;

You prove my point!

Rachel

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 15, 2011 6:02:12 PM PST
Yes, Rachel, I was affirming your point.

It's all quiet, on this front, though. Perhaps we did a good job of fending them off, heh?

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 15, 2011 6:05:23 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Nov 18, 2011 2:18:38 PM PST
Rachel says:
Iscah:

Don't count victory! maybe some went to eat dinner and re-energized will continue posting their
absolute nonsense.

Hugs,
Rachel

Posted on Nov 15, 2011 11:13:54 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Nov 15, 2011 11:59:08 PM PST
William Yate says:
DarthRad,

Thanks again for the thoughtful responses. I was surprised by your characterization of Reagan, but I know little about his administration. I'll be interested to read Richard Reeves' Reagan book in light of your interpretation of Reagan (Reaves' JFK and Nixon are excellent in case you're not familiar with them).

The one place I may differ from you is your belief that a strong president can buck the lobby. In a literal sense that may be true, in that a strong president has the political capital to spend. But that's like saying a steel worker who has $80,000 life savings can buy a BMW. Sure he can, but if he blows it all on a fancy car, he's got nothing left to pay the rent. Similarly, a US president may wish to make a change in some aspect of our relations with Israel, but he's hardly likely to pursue it at the expense of all the platforms which he envisions will constitute his legacy.

Best,
Will

Posted on Nov 16, 2011 12:40:42 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Nov 16, 2011 12:54:55 AM PST
DarthRad says:
William Yate,

OK, time to address your last question about Avigdor Lieberman. Discovered lots more interesting stuff.

First, here's a brief and relatively bland YNet article describing the background story of this guy:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3673089,00.html

Key point here is that Lieberman started off his political activities as a member of the radical Kach movement, the original ultra-right wing Israeli movement that espoused a Greater Israel and expulsion of all Arabs from the Occupied Territories. The article is a bit misleading in that it states that the Kach movement was outlawed in 1994 for its racist ideology - it is true that the Kach party has been banned from holding seats in the Knesset, but it has not been made illegal as an ideology or as an organization in the same way that Germany has made the ideology and symbols and organization of the Nazi Party illegal.

The Kach Party and its racist, anti-Arab ideology is indeed alive and well and thriving in Israel, becoming part of the mainstream even. Here's a reference:

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/right-wing-activist-rabbi-kahane-is-sitting-in-heaven-and-smiling-1.395821

Yes, all you haters out there, it's a H'aaretz article. H'aaretz, in case you didn't know is the oldest daily newspaper in Israel, having been founded in 1918 in British Palestine. So it is older than the modern state of Israel itself. It has a liberal, leftist ideology, and a paid subscribership of 65,000 and is generally read by the highly educated intelligentsia of Israel (according to Wikipedia). I read it a lot, and trust what it says about what is going on in Israel more than American news sources.

The smear attacks that have been posted in this thread against H'aaretz are merely a reflection of the current state of internal Israeli political battles - the right wing Israelis are working just as hard to smear, suppress, and marginalize the remaining left wing Israelis. Here's an article about Avigdor Lieberman's latest proposal for a 45% TAX on foreign contributions to Leftist Israeli organizations:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4145517,00.html

So how to explain Avigdor Lieberman? Here's a fascinating article about the underlying ideology of "Homo Sovieticus" - the Soviet Jews of Israel:

http://www.jpost.com/JerusalemReport/TheRegion/Article.aspx?id=212548

It is worth quoting the key passages from that article:

----

"Seventy-seven percent of FSU olim say they want Israeli Arabs to leave," the Ukraine-born Philippov, who came to Israel in 1992, tells The Report. "I don't think it's racism. It's just the way they see a Jewish state. They dream of a monolithic state and social solidarity."

This figure - which is some 27 percentage points higher than the corresponding proportion of veteran Israelis who say they'd prefer an Israel without Arabs - comes from "Democracy Index 2009," a publication of the Israel Democracy Institute that Philippov co-authored with Asher Arian and Anna Knafelman. The report, which examines indices of democracy and democratic behavior among the general population, focuses in large part on immigrants, primarily those from the FSU, who, the IDI study makes clear, often feel mixed emotions about their absorption and their social and economic standing.

"Most of them assert that their socio-economic status declined after immigration," the study report says. "They work in jobs unsuited to their education and qualifications, and report many problems related to low salaries and discrimination at the workplace. Moreover, most immigrants are concentrated in the Israeli periphery, a fact that affects the accessibility of jobs suited to their education."

It's their location in the periphery that sets the leitmotif for much of their anger, says Philippov, for it is also people in these areas - closer to Gaza and Lebanon - who suffer most from tensions with Hamas and Hizballah.

"They're the ones who have the rockets raining down on their heads," he tells The Report. "It's a combination of disappointment with Israel and the security situation. The minute they don't feel secure, they start to ask questions. And the minute they feel a threat, they react with strength. That's the Soviet way."

This "strength" directly manifests itself in the immigrants' attitudes toward Arabs, especially Israel's one million Arab citizens, who also tend to live in the periphery.

"Homo Sovieticus sees the world in a binary fashion: us vs. them," says the Gildenhorn Institute's Peri. "In Russia, the `them' was the gentiles; in Israel it's the Arabs. In addition, the immigrants remember the huge size of the `old country.' Suddenly they come to a very small country like Israel and they're stunned that Israelis are contemplating giving away territory that leaves them with even less strategic depth than the little they have now."

It's attitudes like these that place olim from the FSU squarely on the right of the political spectrum.

----

Here's a Jerusalem Post editorial lambasting Avigdor Lieberman:

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/Article.aspx?id=203890

More useful to your question would be this article in JPost:

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-EdContributors/Article.aspx?id=217329

That article portrays Lieberman as the consummate politician, charming and charismatic when he wants to be, spouting off ferocious insults and attacks to feed red meat to his right wing blue collar Soviet Israeli political base.

So, let's get now to your question about Lieberman recently declaring to his supporters that Jordan was not Palestine:

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/lieberman-jordan-as-palestinian-state-discussion-harms-israeli-interests-1.395520

http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2011/11/14/israeli_foreign_minister_jordan_is_not_palestine/

First of all, the entire issue originates from the desire of Lieberman's supporters to EXPEL the Palestinians to Jordan. The Boston.com article points that out, but makes the mistake of stating that only a "fringe minority" of Israelis want that to happen. As the article on "Homo Sovieticus" in JPost points out, surveys show a LOT of Israelis now wish to rid themselves of the Israeli Arabs and Palestinians. The Kach movement's goals have indeed become a mainstream idea in Israel, so far to the right has the politics of Israel swung.

The H'aaretz article printed the full context of Lieberman's words, and his explanation is a fairly straightforward one - Jordan is one of those "good neighbor" Arab countries that Israel gets along with fine right now, and so it would not be smart to destabilize Jordan by dumping a million or more very angry Palestinians into Jordan.

Note, however, that what Lieberman said is NOT the same thing as renouncing the idea of expelling the Palestinians. All he said was that it was not a good idea to dump them into Jordan.

Found an article, with information taken from WikiLeaks, where Lieberman in 2006 revealed to the US ambassador his idea to get Egypt to give up some land as part of any drawing up of a new Palestinian state, presumably to dump the Palestinians there instead of Judea and Samaria:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4114102,00.html

That article also details Lieberman's thinking in regards to"transferring" Arab Israeli communities to any new Palestinian state (never mind that Arab Israelis are citizens of Israel and are supposed to have full rights as citizens and might not want to be de-citizened), as well as his thoughts on a "loyalty oath"

Great guy, this Avigdor Lieberman, and unfortunately, what Americans simply have NOT BEEN TOLD is that he is not some radical out on the fringes of Israeli politics (as the Boston.com article implies) but that his ideas of removing Arabs and Palestinians from Israel proper and essentially doing an ethnic cleansing of Israel in order to preserve its future as a Jewish state have huge amounts of support in the new, right wing ultra-Othodox and Homo Sovieticus dominated Israel.

No, this is not the warm and fuzzy "can't we all get along with our Arab friends?" Israel depicted in Otto Preminger's 1960 movie "Exodus".

This is the new Israel where the political discourse has shifted so far to the right that Menachem Begin's old Likud Party now lies politically to the left of new ultra-nationalist parties like Lieberman's Yisrael Beiteinu party

Posted on Nov 16, 2011 1:21:02 AM PST
William Yate says:
DarthRad,

Thanks once again for the research and sourcing. No surprise that I was right about "missing something" based on the US media sources. After all, we're the country that isn't scandalized when a presidential candidate does't know what right of return means.

I've never heard of the Kach movement until now, but I do think you underplay banishment from the Knesset. That's no slap on the wrist, that's exile from mainstream political discourse, no?

Can't believe Preminger did Exodus!

Best,
Will

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 16, 2011 7:00:21 AM PST
Well, I can see that you're not interested in having a discussion, and would rather just spend a little time, alone, with Yate, so that you can express your 'enthusiasm' for each other. You could just get a room, you know.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 16, 2011 7:06:36 AM PST
anne says:
Iscah: get a room

anne: lol.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 16, 2011 9:24:11 AM PST
C. Renkin says:
Should the Israeli Jews (or Israeli Arabs or Palestinians for that matter), liberal or otherwise, support dying populations such as non-Orthodox Jews in the US, or Greece and most of Europe for that matter? The Israeli Jews seem to be more concerned with the more "Zionist" parts of the Diaspora like Canada and South Africa. Their outreach to Gentiles seems to be oriented to the Saudis (in the case of Iran), China, India, and Africa, and yes, the USA Christian and Orthodox Jewish populations, all of which have growing or stable populations.

Posted on Nov 16, 2011 9:45:35 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Nov 17, 2011 7:21:23 AM PST
DarthRad says:
William Yate,

The banning of the Kach Party did not stop its ideology from living on and becoming part of the mainstream of politcs in Israel. That's my point. The new ultra-right wing parties speak in code terms now. Expel Israeli Arabs? Of course not, that would get you banned from the Knesset. How about TRANSFERRING them to the Palestinians? How about a LOYALTY OATH? That's how people like Avigdor Lieberman skate under the radar. His "Jordan is not Palestine" statement was a coded message, completely misinterpreted by the clueless US media, but easily understood by Israelis.

Posted on Nov 16, 2011 9:50:05 PM PST
DarthRad says:
C. Renkin,

I would give you an answer if I could figure out what you are trying to say.

Posted on Nov 16, 2011 10:50:03 PM PST
William Yate says:
DarthRad,

Again, I know nothing about the Kach party, but that explanation makes sense to me. I knew something didn't fit when I read that Lieberman quote. Don't have anything else to add; just wanted to acknowledge your argument.

Best,
Will

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 16, 2011 11:08:03 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Nov 16, 2011 11:13:29 PM PST
DarthRad says:
Iscah,

"Nice job of making Israel seem like a terribly lawless and corrupt place, DarthRad.
Oh, wait a minute! These guys are being prosecuted, or have been convicted. There must be law and order there, after all, right?
We could probably put together a similar list of corrupt politicians, for in given country, including the U.S. But what would be the point, other than to disparage a particular nation, right? "

"It's like reading a paper, written by a high school student. Pure regurgitation of things, written by other people. For all of you guys who think that DarthRad is some kind of well informed genius-- No, he's not. He just reads books that are written to advocate his particular prejudices and worldview, and then repeats what he's read. There's not an original thought in his head, and he would be completely incapable of having a discussion about genuine principles, ethics, and values, such as Smallchief and I were having. DarthRad is a human parrot. Just offer him a cracker, and move on. "

"Well, I can see that you're not interested in having a discussion, and would rather just spend a little time, alone, with Yate, so that you can express your 'enthusiasm' for each other. You could just get a room, you know."

__________

Dear Iscah,

Don't want you to feel ignored! To paraphrase Johnny Depp in "Ed Wood" - I like girls!

Are you a girl? Are you cute? Do you look anything at all like Scarlett Johansson, who happens to be officially a Jew by birthright? I love Scarlett!

Or are you a proper Haredi woman, all bundled up in black, just like the Muslim women?

_______

Ahem, (adjusts glasses and takes a swig of sparkling water) back to serious business -

Actually you are partly correct about the regurgitation part. Most of my posts have been mere regurgitations of what I have read, except, as I mentioned, my preferred reading when it comes to Israel is NOT from the Western media, but FROM ISRAELI NEWS MEDIA. and so I made a special point, just for you, my dear sweet Iscah, to reference mainly Israeli news sources in my last post. I hope you picked up on that fact.

Because you see, the whole point of this thread is NOT TO PUSH any sort of special agenda, but merely to disseminate information to people, especially Americans, especially Jewish Americans, information which is widely available to all Israelis, information which most well informed Israelis already know and discuss openly, information which is either ignored, suppressed, or completely misinterpreted by the US news media.

It is not a "selective" point of view either. Ynetnews.com is the English language online version of Yediah Ahronoth, Israel's LARGEST newspaper, Jpost.com is the online version of Jerusalem Post, Israel's oldest English language newspaper, and of course, Haaretz.com is the English language online version of Israel's oldest daily newspaper.

Pretty mainstream stuff, all from Israeli news media.

Disparage Israel as a country of criminals? Why would I want to do that when fine, upstanding Israeli citizens are the ones saying such things and this is only being truthfully reported by fine, upstanding mainstream Israeli news media? Here are a few examples I found (you just need to type in "government corruption" into the search boxes for these news web sites)

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=6232

Sarid blasts government corruption

http://www.haaretz.com/news/survey-72-of-public-think-israel-is-rife-with-corruption-1.258213

Survey: 72% of public think Israel is rife with corruption

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/business/public-gov-t-police-are-corrupt-1.2498

Public:Gov't, police are corrupt

http://www.haaretz.com/news/poll-four-percent-of-israelis-say-they-ve-paid-bribes-in-last-year-1.206489

Poll: Four percent of Israelis say they've paid bribes in last year
66% feel government not doing enough to rid country of corruption; 86% say corruption influence politics.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/1,7340,L-3557471,00.html

Attorney General: Corruption inside government
Attorney General Menachem Mazuz said during a Jerusalem convention for the Movement for Quality Government on Wednesday, that "corruption is inside the government, and it's difficult to fight those with capability and immunity."

To get that list of Israeli officials charged with crimes, like I said, I used Google, Wikipedia, and the search boxes for these Israeli news sites. Keywords - corruption, bribe. Voila, a whole list of names spewed forth. I was actually SURPRISED that there were so many Israeli officials who were involved.

Yes, every country has corruption! The U.S. has corruption. Vice President Spiro T. Agnew infamously pleaded nolo contendre in 1973 for accepting bribes during his days as a state official in Maryland.

But the U.S. is also 40 times the size of Israel by population. My quick little search brought forth some 15 Israeli names in short order. Try searching Google or any major US news source and finding the equivalent number (40 x 15 = 600) of mayors, tax officials, and major national politicians in the US charged with corruption. It just doesn't happen in the US, Canada, or most Western European countries to this same extent.

Like the title of this thread says, Israel is not the country you think it is anymore.

Posted on Nov 16, 2011 11:43:49 PM PST
[Deleted by the author on Nov 16, 2011 11:58:40 PM PST]

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 17, 2011 1:43:09 AM PST
patrick says:
"We read constantly about how horrible the radical Muslims are for their backwards views and awful treatment of women. Let's be blunt here - I don't see that the ultra-Orthodox Jews are any better. "

I dont doubt for a moment that theyre just as bloody personally unlikeable and in particularly maybe more actually arrogant than fundy muslims, but at least , so far as I know, theyre not up for the whole Jihad thing.
Anyone who runs around raving about "God gave us/me this land" is a fkn freak who should at least be placed in the FrontLine Schwerpunkt where at least with a little luck if any shooting starts they will get blown away first.

I likewise got the impression that Israel must have changed when I visited in 09, even though Id never actually been there b4 Id be lying if I thought it matched up to my image of it which probably was generated 30yrs+ previously..

Posted on Nov 17, 2011 1:46:06 AM PST
patrick says:
no, Id be outraged if Halacha was imposed on everyone as THE law.
Theyve tried this b4 harrassing people who break the Sabbath and what have you, and been rebuffed by the state in no uncertain terms, havent they?

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 17, 2011 1:51:25 AM PST
patrick says:
If theyre that far to the Right how on earth did the Shalit prisoner deal ever happen and the majority support it...

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 17, 2011 3:47:15 AM PST
A says:
Thanks for the info, Darthrad.

I have noticed that there is much more open debate about Israel policy - good, bad and indifferent - in the Israel media than there is in the United States media.

It's almost as if they are allowed to think and talk openly about Israel over there because, as Israelis, they are committed to Israel regardless. But American public opinion has to be managed with controlled news so as not to threaten American support for Israel.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 17, 2011 4:31:40 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Nov 17, 2011 4:36:33 AM PST
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Discussion in:  History forum
Participants:  52
Total posts:  938
Initial post:  Nov 13, 2011
Latest post:  Dec 21, 2012

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