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Customer Discussions > History forum

Can liberal American Jews still support Modern Israel? - the country has changed and is not what you think it is anymore.


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Showing 151-175 of 1000 posts in this discussion
Posted on Nov 21, 2011 2:10:34 AM PST
patrick says:
ying for student government positions at a religious college,

Well, I mean, if theyre at a religious college...
then they might reasonably expect to encounter conservative religious custom?
Maybe if u dont like such things , go to a non-religious school.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 21, 2011 6:30:44 AM PST
anne says:
patrick: ying for student government positions at a religious college, Well, I mean, if theyre at a religious college...then they might reasonably expect to encounter conservative religious custom?
Maybe if u dont like such things , go to a non-religious school.

anne: I believe it's an issue because the women believe they're meeting the expectation of being a proper Jewish woman, but the men disagree. You have to feel sorry for the males in Israel. At the same time they're taught that they are a class above everyone, including women, they are asked to show equal respect for women as they do for each other.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 21, 2011 2:08:02 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Nov 21, 2011 2:08:18 PM PST
Aluf B. says:
Patrick:

Happy Thanksgiving:

Another annie gem! A GEM......................

She knows nothing of what Judaism is all about, her connections of issues is the weirdest I have witnessed.TAKEN FROM THE CONVERSATIONS IN THE JUDAISM FORUM.

She came out with a new notion "Abrahamism." WHAT???????????????????????????????

Rachel

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 21, 2011 2:43:44 PM PST
Skriker says:
"Get off your soapbox.

Israel is not targeting innocents, the Palestinians do.

May be if you can convince your savage buds to stop killing Israelis, the peace will be instantaneous.

People like you don't solve the problem, they ARE the problem. "

Keep rationalizing it to yourself there Diva. Israel is not *targetting* innocents, but kills them nonetheless. It is impossible to drop military ordinance into neighborhoods and *only* kill and hurt those you are planning to kill and hurt. Completely impossible. Just because they aren't specifically targeting innocents doesn't change that fact.

Those savages, as you continue to call them, are not my buds. In fact I don't have a stake in either side of the equation so that gives me the ability to look at the insanity on both sides completely openly and objectively, unlike yourself. As soon as I hear Jews talking about how palestinians are savages and don't deserve any rights they lose all credibility to me. To hear Jews talk in any terms like this about any other racial group after what happend under the Nazis is really unforgivable in my book. The cry of "never again" has most sadly become "never again to us! who cares if we treat others like subhumans?"

Want to be the better people, then be the better people. Stop calling them savages. Reign in extremists on your own side. Truly push for peace. I say the same to the Palestinian side too, but since I am not shouting "Rah rah! Go Israel!" at the top of my lungs I am really just another anti-semite in your world. It is a shame when closed minded people like yourself give goodly Israelis/jews a bad name in the public forum.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 21, 2011 2:53:42 PM PST
Skriker says:
""You can rationalize it to yourself, but you cannot justify it without also justifying the actions of the "savages". "

And yet, that's exactly what you are doing."

Exactly where do I rationalize the actions of the palestinians. No where. All I said is that israelis have killed innocents too and it is ludicrous to hold one side accountable and claim the other is blameless in this. That is *all* I said. No where did I say it is OK for Palestinians to kill innocent people. NO WHERE.

This is just as stupid as political conversations. If you don't "cheer for me" then you are "cheering for them" when in reality I am not "cheering" for anyone. Both sides have brought plenty of stupidity to the table that both sides can easily be brought to task for it. Both sides keep finding reasons to keep things from happening. Personally I think everyone else should get out of it, though. It is up to Israel and Palestine. There will never be a settlement that gives one side of the other everything, and it is already a difficult enough process of appeasement for Israel and the Palestinians without having to add in the opinions of the world at large too. Both sides are supposedly populated by grownups and should start acting like it.

It is clear from those of us watching from the outside that the "leadership" on neither side really wants peace because both sides are going to lose face in the process to some degree. Meanwhile the people under them probably do want peace and are tired of the BS. Sadly until those people do something about it nothing will change.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 21, 2011 3:48:31 PM PST
Diva says:
It's quite amazing how fast characters like Shmiker hop on the Anti Semitsm wagon.

The day you come up with a better name for deformed humans who can slit a baby's throat without blinking,
I will stop calling them savages.
Until then, get busy educating yourself of the issues, it's obvious you are clueless.

Posted on Nov 21, 2011 4:14:21 PM PST
Skriker says:
"It's quite amazing how fast characters like Shmiker hop on the Anti Semitsm wagon. "

Well Diva I am all so impressed by the fact that those on your side of the equation instead of having a rational conversation can only call me names and point fingers. I am well aware of the issues. You are just offended because I can discuss them rationally without supporting either side. In your world that means I am anti-isreali, when all it means in the *real* world is that I am being objective and not letting emotion cloud my judgement as you obviously are.

Well I had my say and see no point trying to communicate with a group of people who are apparently incapable of doing so in and adult and rational fashion. Sorry but I stopped with the name calling back in elementary school. Now of course you will no doubt reply that you won some pointless contest that only means you've done your absolute best to once again avoid rational conversation and drive away people who could actually be your friend.

People like you make it impossible for anyone to really discuss any of these issues because you are too busy not listening. This is the first time I have posted on a topic related to this and your immediate assumption since I didn't wave the "Israel is so super-duper awesome" flag means I am an anti-semite. What a waste of time.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 21, 2011 4:23:54 PM PST
Trying to have a discussion, is not what you did.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 21, 2011 4:35:43 PM PST
Diva says:
Where exactly did I say you are an Anti Semite?

I just think people like you have preconceived notions and fantasies about issues they have not bothered to closely examine.
What exactly should I listen to?? That it's ok to kill Israelis but when they defend themselves they are accused of war crimes? That Israel has no right to exist? That Israel, the only safe harbor for Jews was a mistake?

What have you said that IS rational and demonstrates an understanding of the critical problems facing Israel?

Here is the answer: Zilch.

Like I said before, the only solution is for Arabs to stop terrorism and get to the negotiating table.
Instead, they try all kinds of short cuts and the whine and get even more violent when they don't have it their way.
They have no one to blame but themselves and people who support their nonsense.
Make no mistake, no one is "in love" with the Palestinians, they just hate Israel.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 21, 2011 4:51:41 PM PST
Skriker says:
Actually it is exactly what I did. Trying to point out both sides of a coin, but that apparently doesn't fly in any thread that discusses Israel.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 21, 2011 5:29:19 PM PST
Both sides of the coin? That's what you call that? Perhaps you should take a look at Diva's last sentence, in her most recent post. We are certain that you have a low opinion of just about every Islamic nation, in the region. Yet you bleed for the 'Palestinians'. Hm, I wonder why?
I mean, why would you imagine that you were called that one word, that no one called you, but you projected it onto yourself, anyway.
I think that you need therapy.

Posted on Nov 22, 2011 7:47:47 AM PST
Skriker says:
Iscah, when the only side that is accepted and allowed to be discussed is the Israeli side and opinion, offering up anything else is looking at the other side of the coin. I do not "bleed" for the palestinians. I just take exception with the mentality that Israeil is completely without any blame whatsoever in their actions. Yes they are defending themselves and yes they have a right to do so, but that doesn't change the fact that in so doing innocent palestinian lives have been lost too. It is a *fact*. It is not a judgement. It is not a condemnation. Just a simple statement of more facts in the equation. The problem is that in having even the slightest opinion that does not completely wave the "Israel is great flag" I am attacked, insulted and called names and lumped in the Darth who definitely seems to have a distinct agenda against Israel in this thread. I have no agenda of any kind except to look at the whole picture. Acknowledging the death of innocent palestinian civilians means nothing more than acknowledging the death of innocent palestinian civilians. In this thread and any other discussions on the topic, just acknowledging that bit of information means that I am against Israel and in love with the palestinians.

I believe it is duplistic to to berate and condemn all palestinians because because of deaths of innocent Israeli citizens and at the same time blow off the death of innocents on the other side too. You can't have it both ways. Either the death of innocent civilians is not acceptabl or it is acceptable. It can't be both at the same time. That is my whole point. People want to claim that this scenario is completely black and white and it is not. Mistakes are made on both sides, but by trying to acknowledge that I am "obviously" against Israel, when I am not giving the palestinians a free ride in any of it. This is why I compared it to discussing US politics. Many are incapable of understanding how anyone can have a centrist position on a topic. You are either for me or against me, and that simplistic view is just not true. For the sake of civilians on both sides of this struggle I wish that a peace could be forged and that everyone can be allowed to live their lives peacefully and comfortably. Both sides believe they are *right* in their position so will not give an inch to the other. This has been going on for decades and in any situation where both sides consider themselves the "righteous" side it is no surprise that peace is not happening.

If you take Isreal and palestinians out of this discussion and label them as generic groups of people, what I am saying makes perfect sense. Unfortunately since you can't do that the discussion is colored by the the black and white thinking that leads to people to completely discount opinions that are not the same as theirs because they are "obviously" supporting the other side. This may be black and white to Israelis and palestinians,but to an objective outside observer the situation is many shades of gray instead. I have no agenda except to try and get people to see less of a narrow view of the situation. If I was talking to the "other" side of the equation and it was bashing the Isreali side and showing a very narrow view I would be making similar comments pointing out things that I think they are ignoring, missing, avoiding. I do the same thing in US political discussions. I try to point out to democrats and republicans that their own side is not without culpability. Yet get the same hate directed back at my for having the audactity to not wholly love one side or the other.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 22, 2011 7:49:20 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Nov 22, 2011 7:50:00 AM PST
Diva says:
Why do you want to discuss Israel? Why don't you want to discuss Syria, Sudan, China or Mexico?

Is it because Israel is always at the top of the news due to people who want to "discuss" it while knowing only what the Arab propaganda tells them? Or is it the trendy thing to do which provides good sensationalism?

Why are Israel's internal politics any of your business?

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 22, 2011 8:19:01 AM PST
jeffesq613 says:
Your post is a long way of saying: "Israel has no right to retaliate or defend itself against people who commit terrorist acts other than to give in to their demands." Let's hope that someone like you never is given the responsibility to defend the citizens of a nation.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 22, 2011 8:23:47 AM PST
jeffesq613 says:
The Israelis proved they're willing and able to make peace and concessions, with Egypt, with Jordan and with offers to the Palestinians. The Palestinian response to all offers has been increased violence. Your belief that there is an equivalence of guilt on this issue is really just a sign of how you've swallowed one side's propaganda, not an indication that you have any real understanding of the issues or the players.

Posted on Nov 22, 2011 8:25:18 AM PST
Skriker says:
"Why do you want to discuss Israel? Why don't you want to discuss Syria, Sudan, China or Mexico?"

Let's see...in this thread I want to discuss Israel because that is what this thread is about. Kind of stupid to come into a thread about Israel and then turn it into a discussion on the Sudan, China or Mexico.

"Is it because Israel is always at the top of the news due to people who want to "discuss" it while knowing only what the Arab propaganda tells them? Or is it the trendy thing to do which provides good sensationalism?"

I think that Israel is alawyas at the top of the news because thre is a large number of jews living in the united states to which it might actually be relevant to. Within the grand scope of things I think the US has too much influence and is trying to make things happen the USs way when it comes to the peace process in Israel. It is also laughable that the arab nations that complain about the way that Israel is dealing with the palestinians can't be bothered to provide the palestinians a place to live themselves, but no one seems to acknowledge that publically. If they cared so much about the palestinians Lebanon, Egypt and Syria are a pretty short trip from Israeli territory for the palestinians to move.

"Why are Israel's internal politics any of your business?"

So I'm not allowed to discuss another country because I don't live there?? That is pretty silly. As a life long history student I find these things interesting. And things I find interesting I want to discuss and learn more about. It is one thing to discuss such events after the fact, but a much different discussion can be had while they are happening in your lifetime. Of course at the same time emotions are more raw while it is happening "now".

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 22, 2011 8:28:44 AM PST
jeffesq613 says:
Striker: Yes they are defending themselves and yes they have a right to do so, but that doesn't change the fact that in so doing innocent palestinian lives have been lost too. It is a *fact*. It is not a judgement. It is not a condemnation.

Go back and read your own posts. When you say that the Israelis are just as bad as the Palestinians that deliberately set out to murder innocent people, you are in fact judging and condemning. It is the typical moral equivalence used by liberals and leftists and anti-Semites when evaluating this conflict. There is nothing fair-minded or honest about it.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 22, 2011 8:31:51 AM PST
jeffesq613 says:
Striker: I believe it is duplistic to to berate and condemn all palestinians because because of deaths of innocent Israeli citizens

I assume you mean duplicitous. And you are being duplicitous if you believe anyone here has berated or condemned any Palestinian other than the ones who target innocent people for death or those who are in favor of such a policy. And you are duplicitous when you claim that you were being attacked just for expressing concern over the deaths of innocent Palestinians.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 22, 2011 8:34:05 AM PST
jeffesq613 says:
Striker: Either the death of innocent civilians is not acceptabl or it is acceptable.

Nonsense. Innocent people are killed all the time in wars. It's not the same thing as deliberately targeting innocent people for death. Discernment is the first step toward having some hope of wisdom.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 22, 2011 8:35:23 AM PST
jeffesq613 says:
Striker: Mistakes are made on both sides,

Yes, when Israelis kill an innocent person, it's often a mistake. A Palestinian mistake is when they aim at the innocent person, but miss.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 22, 2011 8:38:54 AM PST
jeffesq613 says:
Striker: I think that Israel is alawyas at the top of the news because thre is a large number of jews living in the united states

Really? Do you realize that Jews constitute about 2% of the US population? Does the other 98% not read, listen or watch news, such that the media must address the news to that 2%?

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 22, 2011 8:39:22 AM PST
anne says:
Striker,
I think she wanted you to say that Israel is hypocritical.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 22, 2011 8:42:05 AM PST
anne says:
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In reply to an earlier post on Nov 22, 2011 8:45:31 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Nov 22, 2011 8:46:30 AM PST
jeffesq613 says:
Thank you for your irrelevant and ridiculously inaccurate factoid.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_population

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 22, 2011 8:49:51 AM PST
anne says:
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Discussion in:  History forum
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Initial post:  Nov 13, 2011
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