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2 WWII questions


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Initial post: Jan 2, 2013 4:34:42 AM PST
1 - I know why we (US) entered in '41 in the Pacific arena, but was there a specific underlying cause to enter in the European arena other than the Japanese and Germans were Axis Members?
2 - watching many documentaries of Germans who loved Hitler, many proclaimed a kind of right invading other European countries and don't even think it's wrong - does this come from their hands being tied after WWI? I am just curious why they should believe that invading any country is right - could be said about Soviets too who adored Stalin, but have not seen any documentaries about their take on occupation. Just curious, that's all.

Thank you.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 2, 2013 7:19:26 AM PST
Debunker says:
Germany and Italy declared war on the US on December 11, 1941.

Posted on Jan 2, 2013 8:34:34 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Jan 2, 2013 8:37:14 AM PST
K.A.Goldberg says:
1. Germany and Italy declared War on the USA on Dec. 11, 1941, three days after the USA declared war on Japan (and Japan only).

2. Sadly, it seems not many Germans felt what they were doing was wrong. Consider journalist/author William L. Shirer (1904-93) in BERLIN DIARY, END OF BERLIN DIARY (and perhaps RISE AND FALL OF THIRD REICH). As a foreign correspondent in Germany at the start of the war in 1939, Shirer claimed his maid and a couple others asked him why Britain was making war on Germany, reasoning that Germany had a right to a "German" city like Danzig. Shirer replied by asking if Germany had a right to a Czech city like Prague (which Hitler grabbed six months earlier), and was met by their silence. Six years later in 1945, Shirer returned to a bombed-out Berlin, and heard Germans blaming their defeat on Hitler's taking on too many foes with the whole world ganging up on poor Germany, with indifference to the mass killing and suffering German inflicted on their neighbors, Jews, Gypsies, etc.

You might also look at the continuing adulation by some for such murderous figures as Stalin, Lenin, Che, Somoza, Castro, Pinochet, etc.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 2, 2013 8:36:50 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Jan 2, 2013 8:39:16 AM PST
Susanna says:
Some people hold the Treaty of Versaille partly responsible for German aggression in WW 2--but they were aggressive before Versaille.

Many Germans, and certainly Nazis, bought wholeheartedly into the idea that Germans were a master race, and everyone else mere servants to that race. Invading countries was a necessity in order to secure "lebensraum"--living space:

Lebensraum (German for "habitat" or literally "living space") was one of the major genocidal political goals of Adolf Hitler, and an important component of Nazi ideology. It served as the motivation for the expansionist policies of Nazi Germany, aiming to provide extra space for the growth of the German population, for a Greater Germany. In Hitler's book Mein Kampf, he detailed his belief that the German people needed Lebensraum ("living space", i.e. land and raw materials), and that it should be found in Eastern Europe. It was the stated policy of the Nazis to kill, deport, or enslave the Polish, Ukrainian, Russian, and other Slavic populations, whom they considered inferior, and to repopulate the land with Germanic people. Entire populations were to be exterminated by starvation, thus creating an agricultural surplus to feed Germany and allowing their replacement by a German upper class.[1] Other Slavic populations such as the Czech were to be mass sterilized and more slowly replaced by ethnic Germans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensraum

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 2, 2013 8:38:34 AM PST
Susanna says:
" Hitler's taking on too many foes with the whole world ganging up on poor Germany, with indifference to the mass killing and suffering German inflicted on their neighbors, Jews, Gypsies, etc"

Yes, that seemingly was their attitude. Never mind that when questioned by the US Army, NO ONE was a Nazi.

Posted on Jan 2, 2013 8:50:55 AM PST
thank you all so much for your responses

k sierpinski

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 2, 2013 10:27:04 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Jan 2, 2013 10:31:45 AM PST
Jeff Marzano says:
Susanna says:

[Many Germans, and certainly Nazis, bought wholeheartedly into the idea that Germans were a master race, and everyone else mere servants to that race.]

Yes that's right according to a TV show I watched yesterday called The Nazi Gospels. I guess these so called gospels were extrapolated from Mein Kempf, the Nazi bible.

According to this TV show there was a lot of interest in spiritualism and the occult in Germany starting in the late 1800s. The Nazis were one of the underground organizations that developed a belief in the Aryan super race.

Himmler was put in charge of the SS and he was a true believer in those types of ideas. Then he got hooked up with a guy by the name of Karl Maria Wiligut who claimed he could remember his past lives going back 220,000 years. Wiligut was just the man Himmler was looking for since he was an eye witness to the time when the Nordic super gods walked the Earth with pure blood before they started breeding with mortal women. This inbreeding had contaminated and weakened the Aryan gods.

The plan was to re-purify the Germanic blood line by sterilizing and exterminating all the other inferior races. Hitler wanted to do this in Germany and its surrounding countries first but Adolf had long range plans to purify the entire world.

Hitler felt that history would be eternally grateful to his Nazi party for doing this and he stated this in one of his speeches.

That ideology is based on a warped interpretation of Darwin's theories about evolution and the survival of only the fittest. For the Nazis warfare was inevitable since lasting peace would allow the weak to survive.

Himmler and those others were right about some things such as Atlantis really did exist and there are certain groups of people who probably still possess secret knowledge from the ancient past such as the monks in Tibet. But this got all twisted around in their minds.

Still it's a very interesting story. Himmler made a weird castle out in a forest his SS headquarters. There's a weird image carved into the floor in that castle which represents something called the Black Sun. There's these weird stones near this castle which people refer to as the German Stonehenge.

The SS adopted the death's head as one of their symbols. The SS death's head ring shows the skull surrounded by rune symbols. Receiving one of those rings was a great honor for SS members.

For Himmler Christianity was the enemy that had nearly destroyed Germany's racial purity. He wanted to stamp out Christianity and resurrect the Aryan super gods.

Several authors appear on this TV show and their books might be interesting where they delve into the occult origins of the Nazi's beliefs. This is a favorite subject of fringe author Joseph Farrell also.

The Philosopher's Stone: Alchemy and the Secret Research for Exotic Matter [Paperback]
Joseph P. Farrell (Author)

The Nazi Gospels

The gospel of:

the Master Race
the SS
the pagan gods
Aryan history
the holy grail
the Fuehrer
Aryan science
race war
genocide

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 2, 2013 2:41:41 PM PST
K. Sierpinski:

As other posters have noted, Hitler declared war on the U.S., not visa versa. The reason that he did what can only be described in hindsight as one of the most grossly stupid acts in history is multifaceted.

1) He had the Soviet Union with their backs against the wall, and he honestly thought he was about to pull off a victory on the Eastern Front.

2) The German Navy was pushing for war with the U.S. because they were already in an undeclared naval war and making the war official would open up new hunting grounds for British bound shipping off the vulnerable US Atlantic Coast.

3) Hitler figured with the American Battleship fleet out of commission, the Japanese would keep the Americans so preoccupied that they would not be able to put much attention to European affairs.

4) Hitler looked at the rather small size of the U.S. Army and Air Force in 1941 and didn't perceive it as a serious threat, having no clue as to the potential for American mass manufacturing in what would become a grinding war of material.

Posted on Jan 2, 2013 2:45:37 PM PST
Susanna says:
" one of the most grossly stupid acts in history "

lol. so true.

Interesting info, thanks for posting it!

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 3, 2013 11:35:16 AM PST
Jeff Marzano says:
Johann Niemand says:

[As other posters have noted, Hitler declared war on the U.S., not visa versa.]

The three axis powers, Germany, Japan, and Italy. were signatories of something called the Tripartite Pact.

This agreement stated that if any of those countries were attacked the other two would help them.

However I don't think it said that if one of those countries declared war on some other country the other two would also declare war on that same country.

Since Japan declared war on America it was inevitable that Japan would be attacked by the U.S. at some point. But I don't think this would have required Germany and Italy to declare war on America according to the Tripartite Pact.

But Hitler did anyway.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 3, 2013 2:45:45 PM PST
<<Many Germans, and certainly Nazis, bought wholeheartedly into the idea that Germans were a master race>>

This idea was concocted by Houston Stewart Chamberlain in The Foundations of the Nineteenth Century, Volume 1

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 3, 2013 4:30:30 PM PST
John M. Lane says:
That's true, Domenico Rosa, Hitler himself saw it as a race war.

Of course he mistakenly depicted Jews as a "race" instead of a religion. Some German historians summarize the Nazi program as "race and space." I believe Professor Eberhard Jaeckel is the most prominent of them.

Posted on Jan 3, 2013 4:46:22 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Jan 3, 2013 4:50:32 PM PST
Hello, sorry to have been gone so long from the forum. New job, many exams to pass, and many working night hours. However, I saw this thread and just had to comment!

Susanna says:
"Lebensraum (German for "habitat" or literally "living space") was one of the major genocidal political goals of Adolf Hitler, and an important component of Nazi ideology. It served as the motivation for the expansionist policies of Nazi Germany, aiming to provide extra space for the growth of the German population, for a Greater Germany. In Hitler's book Mein Kampf, he detailed his belief that the German people needed Lebensraum ("living space", i.e. land and raw materials), and that it should be found in Eastern Europe. It was the stated policy of the Nazis to kill, deport, or enslave the Polish, Ukrainian, Russian, and other Slavic populations, whom they considered inferior, and to repopulate the land with Germanic people. Entire populations were to be exterminated by starvation, thus creating an agricultural surplus to feed Germany and allowing their replacement by a German upper class.[1] Other Slavic populations such as the Czech were to be mass sterilized and more slowly replaced by ethnic Germans."

All very true and very distressing. However, what immediately struck me was how just changing a very few words could shed an entirely new light on expansionism and imperialism:

"Manifest Destiny (American for "living space") was one of the major political goals of several Nineteenth Century U.S. Presidents, and an important component of American ideology. It served as the motivation for the expansionist policies of America, aiming to provide extra space for the growth of the American population, for a Greater America "from sea to shining sea." U.S. policy detailed its belief that the American people needed "living space", i.e. land and raw materials, that that it should be found in Western North America. It was the understood policy of the Americans to kill, deport, or enslave the Cherokee, Shawnee, Sioux, and other Native American populations, whom they considered inferior, and to repopulate the land with Eastern white people. Entire populations were to be exterminated by starvation or pestilence (such as smallpox or cholera spread by traded blankets), thus creating an agricultural surplus to feed America and allowing their replacement by an American upperclass. Other populations such as southern blacks were to be mass sterilized (via "medical experiments") and more slowly replaced by colonist white Americans."

Don't get me wrong - I abhor all that Hitler and the Nazis stood for. But as an American of European heritage, I find it hard to point an accusing finger at the Central European mindset and policies that led to the concept of "lebensraum."

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 3, 2013 5:23:47 PM PST
jpl says:
K. Sierpinski says: 1 - I know why we (US) entered in '41 in the Pacific arena, but was there a specific underlying cause to enter in the European arena other than the Japanese and Germans were Axis Members?
2 - watching many documentaries of Germans who loved Hitler, many proclaimed a kind of right invading other European countries and don't even think it's wrong - does this come from their hands being tied after WWI? I am just curious why they should believe that invading any country is right - could be said about Soviets too who adored Stalin, but have not seen any documentaries about their take on occupation. Just curious, that's all.

jpl: As for invading other countries, couldn't the same be said of the U.S. in some cases?

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 4, 2013 8:44:36 AM PST
Jeff Marzano says:
K. Sierpinski says:

[I am just curious why they should believe that invading any country is right - could be said about Soviets too who adored Stalin, but have not seen any documentaries about their take on occupation.]

I'm not sure everyone in Russia adored Stalin. Adoring him was only better than the alternative.

Stalin created an atmosphere of oppression, hypocrisy, secrecy, and mistrust within the entire country. People would inform on their own neighbors to save their own skins.

The following book is about the biological weapons program that existed in the Soviet Union during the Cold War:

Biohazard: The Chilling True Story of the Largest Covert Biological Weapons Program in the World--Told from Inside by the Man Who Ran It [Paperback]
Ken Alibek (Author) Stephen Handelman (Author)

That same environment of lies and mistrust still existed even after Stalin died.

The Russian novelist Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn wrote about his experiences in Stalin's labor camps in Siberia. Solzhenitsyn's books had to be smuggled out of Russia to be published.

Solzhenitsyn will be remembered by many as the greatest writer of the 20th century.

The First Circle [Hardcover] Aleksandr I. Solzhenitsyn (Author)

The Gulag Archipelago Volume 1: An Experiment in Literary Investigation (P.S.) [Paperback]
Aleksandr I. Solzhenitsyn (Author)

"Best Nonfiction Book of the Twentieth Century" (Time magazine )

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 4, 2013 9:03:04 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Jan 4, 2013 9:18:56 AM PST
Susanna says:
Hi High,

The concept of lebensraum has certainly been with humanity as long as we have existed and did not originate with the Nazis. It was of course a goal of Hitler.

After reading your post I thought about all the similarities, and the differences, between the colonization of the US as well as the western expansion and its effect on the Native population, and the attempted genocide of the Jews. For example, we had "Indian hunters" much as the Nazis had Jew hunters and "catchers." The Indian hunters were babaric; I heard of a group in California who would scalp the natives and cut out particular parts of men and women and tie them on to the pummel of their sadles, notches in the gun style. Pretty revolting.

Unlike Native Americans, European Jews had lived in Europe for centuries and were fully assimilated into society and held prominent postitions in government, academics, medicine, etc. They hadn't attacked--or scalped--anyone to in any way provoke the violence that was to descend upon them. Jewish children were not taken from their parents as were the Native Americans in order to become Americanized, the Jewish chilren were simply murdered straight away.

Many other differences between the two are technological. I wonder, if we could have built gas chambers to exterminate the Native Americans, would we?

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 4, 2013 9:08:02 AM PST
Susanna says:
Jeff,

Re Stalin, I read somewhere that after Stalin's (endless) speeches, he and his henchmen would actually make note of who stopped applauding first...to be "investigated."

I simply can't get my mind around that kind of oppression, a type of fear for your life obedience, where one couldn't speak any objections even to a spouse or family for fear of being turned in. I assume one would simply stop thinking, or go insane from thoughts unspoken.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 4, 2013 10:06:48 AM PST
Jeff Marzano says:
Susanna says:

[Re Stalin, I read somewhere that after Stalin's (endless) speeches, he and his henchmen would actually make note of who stopped applauding first...to be "investigated.]

Yes that's right. When Stalin gave a speech nobody would dare to stop clapping for fear they would be killed. So they finally had to ring a bell to tell everyone to stop clapping.

I saw an interesting TV show about Stalin. They said he had an 'enemy complex'. Stalin was only happy when he felt he was gaining the upper hand on some enemy. I guess if there were no real enemies he would create them.

They also called Stalin a master of duplicity. He was apparently responsible for killing some guy who the people liked even though this guy was loyal to Stalin. Then Stalin appeared at the funeral saying how sorry he felt and vowing to find and root out the evil conspirators who had killed his beloved friend.

Saddam Hussein instilled a similar type of fear in those he terrorized.

Most people in America for example take their kids to baseball games as part of their upbringing. But Saddam used to take his sons into his torture chambers. Saddam's sons would sometimes grab a young girl out of school and rape and kill her just for something to do.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 4, 2013 10:09:58 AM PST
Susanna says:
"So they finally had to ring a bell to tell everyone to stop clapping."

Jeff, I didn't know that, and I had always wondered how the applause would end!

He even had family members murdered as well as close associates, so no one was safe.

How gruesome about Saddam and his sons. If there is a hell...

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 4, 2013 10:13:05 AM PST
Susanna says:
Did, as I suspect, humanity create the concept of hell in order to have some place to psychologically put these kinds of people, the cruel ones, the sociopaths, and the psychopaths as a placebo, a soothing of anger and the desire for revenge, and to quite literally get them off and out of our minds?

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 4, 2013 10:14:36 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Jan 4, 2013 10:15:51 AM PST
Jeff Marzano says:
Susanna says:

[Re Stalin, I read somewhere that after Stalin's (endless) speeches, he and his henchmen would actually make note of who stopped applauding first...to be "investigated."]

This reminds me too of the assassination of president Kennedy and Lyndon Johnson.

After the assassination Johnson gave a speech where he said he would give all had had to not be standing there that day.

He said he wouldn't be able to proceed alone with the great JFK gone and would need the help of every American.

However Johnson was I believe responsible for having JFK killed.

We had Stalins and Hitlers here in America but they couldn't do things as easily because of the American legal system. They had to do it more secretly.

Such are the deadly seductions of greed and a lust for power for some people.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 4, 2013 10:18:00 AM PST
Jeff Marzano says:
Susanna says:

[Did, as I suspect, humanity create the concept of hell in order to have some place to psychologically put these kinds of people, the cruel ones, the sociopaths, and the psychopaths as a placebo, a soothing of anger and the desire for revenge, and to quite literally get them off and out of our minds ?]

The concept of Hell goes back to very ancient times.

"Hell is truth seen too late." - H. G. Adams (et al)

Posted on Jan 4, 2013 10:21:57 AM PST
Susanna says:
"We had Stalins and Hitlers here in America but they couldn't do things as easily because of the American legal system. They had to do it more secretly."

You are no doubt right, after all, the kkk is indigenous to the US! But in the end, they were unable to conduct a genocide of African Americans--at least so far--because of the legal and the cultural pressure which serves to keep at least the acting out of bigotry in the closet, at least as far as actions (as opposed to thoughts, desires and intent).

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 4, 2013 10:22:47 AM PST
Susanna says:
"The concept of Hell goes back to very ancient times.

"Hell is truth seen too late." - H. G. Adams (et al)"


As does cruelty.

Love the quote.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 5, 2013 11:24:25 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Jan 5, 2013 11:25:52 AM PST
John M. Lane says:
I don't see any basis for comparing America's move west to Hitler's move east, High Plains Drifter. Hitler set out to annihilate the Jews and other "inferior races" and almost succeeded.

America's move west was driven by population pressures and proceeded by fits and starts. Although not immune from the racism of the age, the US did set aside reservations for the tribal societies and did lay out a map to full citizenship for American Indians. Many took it including General Ely Parker, one of Grant's staff officers. It was Parker who replied to Robert E. Lee (at Appomatox), who recognized him as a full-blood Seneca, by saying, "We're all Americans, General Lee."

The American policy was always assimilation. The Nazi policy was always annihilation.

I say that as a US citizen of East Prussian ancestry.
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Discussion in:  History forum
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Total posts:  115
Initial post:  Jan 2, 2013
Latest post:  May 10, 2013

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