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Ancient climate change led to collapse of Indus civilization


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Posted on Jun 4, 2012 9:41:53 PM PDT
Rachel says:
Thomas:
Questions:
Why can't they be independent sources of the same flood? A confirmation that there was such a thing.
While there is a similarity between the Hammurabi code, for wexample, and the laws in the Hebrew Canon. You can easily see that the Hebrew ones do not differentiate between the social classes- the punishment is the same for all who transgress it. A totally different perspective, and thus, I could argue that it was independently made and it is different.
An eye for eye for example, is the beginning of compensation. It does not mean that I will sock you eye when you sock mine, but that I will pay you for the damage done.

Thank you fro your references. I love fora that are respectful and we learn something from one another.

Rachel

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 4, 2012 9:33:39 PM PDT
Rachel says:
hahaha!

Rachel

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 4, 2012 9:40:10 AM PDT
*True, the Aryan invasion of India may be a myth -- but it's a fact that Sanskrit is a Indo-European language. The Indo-European languages possibly originated in Turkey, possibly on the steppes of Russia, but not in India. So the language and the people who spoke it got to northern India somehow. Peacefully? Invasion? Who knows? Did they displace the original inhabitants of northern India or meld with them?

The earliest evidence of the language group was written by the Hitities. Sanskrit and Archaic Greek are also some old written examples. We often forget that most sestern laungages have abandoned cases such as Latin and Russian for a world order system.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 4, 2012 9:38:00 AM PDT
*Sanskrit and German. Please expand that.

Look at a Language tree. Most inguists see the connection. There are many basic words that are very similiar among the languages. Just as French and Spanish are now different they both have their base in Latin. At one time Early Latin and Kelic were very similiar. Languages change over time just try reading Chaucer or Beowolf.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 4, 2012 9:35:17 AM PDT
*Related but no tied, is that I found Hindu writing similar to Aramaic. I was thrilled but have no more information than that. of course in time it looks different.

Hindi and Shindi as well as Sanskrit are from the same group and are related to Slavice and Greek western languages.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 4, 2012 9:33:46 AM PDT
*I don't think we know much about Mohenjo-daro and Harappa. I don't think we can read their writings. A guess: the Indus valley people were the ancestors of today's Dravidians in south India. They got pushed out of the Indus River Valley by the invading Aryans (who became the higher caste Hindus). There's some speculation that the Sumerians were also related to the Dravidians. So, maybe a dark-skinned people now living in southern India invented civilization?

We can read Sumerian and some linguistists have tried to make the connection with Finish and Hungarian. The Aryains were derrived from the same linguistic people as the Hitties Greeks Kelis and us. No one really knows where the Sumerians came from but the Akkadians who conquered them were Semitic speaking people the same Group as Egypt and the Hebrews.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 4, 2012 9:31:04 AM PDT
*Near the Tigris and Euphrates, maybe. Try Sumer.

We have to take into account that the Bible was heavily influenced by the stories the captive hebrews heard in Babylon. Many of the stories can find paralells in Sumerian and Akkadian stories. The flood story is very close to what is found in the Epic of Gilgamesh. It can also be the flooding of the Black Sea because the and of Arrat is a natural place to flee of that land was flooded.

We can take into account that those stories were already thousands of years old and could have been changed and combined with other stories that seemed to have similiar elements.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 4, 2012 9:27:45 AM PDT
*i am starting to look for information on the origins of life in what is now India; my theory is that Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden which was in India and not modern Iran. Your suggestions ,please ?

I find that very intersting. There is a theory that says the Garden of Eden is not at the bottom of the Persian Gulf. That is two rivers still exist today and there is evidence that the other existed where the story said where they were.

I have been interested in that there was a higher level of civilization than we might have thought and the cites are now in places that are under water so they are hard if not impossible to find because the materials of that age did not survive under water.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 4, 2012 9:24:40 AM PDT
*The mysterious fall of the largest of the world's earliest urban civilizations nearly 4,000 years ago in what is now India, Pakistan, Nepal and Bangladesh now appears to have a key culprit - ancient climate change, researchers say.

Yes, the climate has not been stable in human civilization. It has lead to rises and falls of complex civilizations all over the world. The real question is if we can effect it and if so to what extent. I read the Distant Mirror 20 years ago and that book is older that cited global colling as leading to famine and plauge in the 1300s.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 4, 2012 6:08:17 AM PDT
anne says:
Smallchief: <nowadays the Indo-European speakers reside in northern India and the Dravidians in southern India.>

anne: 'Dravidians'? Are you sure that's not 'Davidians'?

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 4, 2012 4:04:29 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jun 4, 2012 4:13:14 AM PDT
Smallchief says:
Kishore says: Finally, the Aryan invasion theory mentioned by Smallchief in this thread has been largely discredited.

True, the Aryan invasion of India may be a myth -- but it's a fact that Sanskrit is a Indo-European language. The Indo-European languages possibly originated in Turkey, possibly on the steppes of Russia, but not in India. So the language and the people who spoke it got to northern India somehow. Peacefully? Invasion? Who knows? Did they displace the original inhabitants of northern India or meld with them?

The Iranians (Iran=Aryan) and the Afghans (their airline is named Ariana Afghan airlines) also claim to be Aryans.

To generalize, nowadays the Indo-European speakers reside in northern India and the Dravidians in southern India. Somebody, perhaps Dravidians, resided in northern India before the arrival of the Indo-European Aryans.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 4, 2012 3:53:20 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jun 4, 2012 4:08:29 AM PDT
Smallchief says:
Rachel, looking into it more, although there's plenty of web speculation, I can't give you a good, reliable source for the links between Sumerians and Dravidians as that doesn't seem to be seriously considered by linguists nowadays. But there are still people out there who see a link between Elam and the Elamites and Dravidian. See the Wikipedia article, "Elamo-Dravidian" for a start.

I'm sure you know who the Elamites were, but for those who don't they were a very early civilization in the Persian uplands, overlooking the Sumerians in the Tigris-Euphrates valley.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 4, 2012 1:05:36 AM PDT
Rachel says:
Thank you for your very educating post.

Sanskrit and German. Please expand that.

Do you know about the similarity that i was talking about with Aramaic writing?

Rachel

Posted on Jun 3, 2012 11:25:26 PM PDT
Kishore says:
Interesting discussion thread. Some point you all may like to consider:

Most of the material in this new research from Woods Hole Oceanographic Institute is already well know (refer "The Lost River" by Michael Danino).

Geologic and meterological evidence indicates that the Saraswati river was fed by Sutlej. Sutlej changing course caused the Saraswati to dry up. WHOI now says that "reducing moonsoon" was the cause. They need to explain the palleochannels (detected by ISRO satellites) that connect the Sutlej to the dry river bed of Gaggar-Hakra, instead of just ignoring it.

Living in southern India, I see that all the monsoon fed south Indian rivers (e.g. Cauvery) simply dry up in winter. It takes snow-melt to create perennial rivers. A monsoon-fed perennial river seems to be an impossibility.

This WHOI research talks about heavy monsoons about 10000 years back followed by reducing monsoon 4000 years back. An elementary knowledge if ice ages and inter-glacials will show you that the current Holocene interglacial started 11500 years ago, i.e. heavy ice-melt 10000 years ago followed by much lighter ice-melt 4000 years ago. Which seems more plausible - reducing monsoon or reducing glacial-melt (combined with Sutjej changing course)?

This research from WHOI seem superficial to say the least. Are they just serving the global warming cause here?

Finally, the Aryan invasion theory mentioned by Smallchief in this thread has been largely discredited.

Not only is there no evidence of warfare deaths, there is also significant cultural continuity from Indus Valley sites to current day India. The Great Ceremonial Bath found in Monahjo Daro and Harappa can be found all over southern India today in front of Hindu temples. The "Humped-Back Bull" found on Indus Valley seals is easily recognized by Hindus as Nandi, Shiva's Vahana, and can be seen in all Shiva temples in India.The Shiv Linga worshiped in Shiva temples in India today was also found in Kalibangan. Of course, to understand all these one needs to be familiar with Indian culture (see http://www.oocities.org/ifihhome/articles/bbl002.html for more such cultural continuities)

If such continuity exists, then an Aryan "invasion" which destroyed the Harappans seems unlikely. Even the term "Arya" is routinely used in Sanskrit literature to address noblemen (a la "sir", "your honour") and not any specific race. An European "migration" is within bounds of possibility and serves to explain linguistic similarities between Sanskrit and German.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 3, 2012 10:59:28 PM PDT
Rachel says:
Suetonius:

Hiya:

Good question as always. We have artifacts from them but no writings.

Related but no tied, is that I found Hindu writing similar to Aramaic. I was thrilled but have no more information than that. of course in time it looks different.

Rachel

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 3, 2012 10:54:58 PM PDT
Rachel says:
Small chief:

Hiya!

Can you give me a source that ties the Sumerians to the Dravidians?

What impresses me most of the ruins in Mohenjo daro is the arrangement of their housing, Very concise.


Thanks,

Rachel

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 3, 2012 6:34:25 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jun 3, 2012 6:35:55 PM PDT
Smallchief says:
I don't think we know much about Mohenjo-daro and Harappa. I don't think we can read their writings. A guess: the Indus valley people were the ancestors of today's Dravidians in south India. They got pushed out of the Indus River Valley by the invading Aryans (who became the higher caste Hindus). There's some speculation that the Sumerians were also related to the Dravidians. So, maybe a dark-skinned people now living in southern India invented civilization?

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 3, 2012 3:49:13 PM PDT
Suet says:
Do we have any idea what the religion of the Mohenjo-Daro culture was? Can we translate their inscriptions?

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 3, 2012 3:38:23 PM PDT
Rachel:I don't think we still have the total answers neither for the Maya or this Hindu culture.

SA: I think Harappa flowered long before there was talk of Hindus.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 3, 2012 3:31:49 PM PDT
Rachel says:
Howard D. White:

Near the Tigris and Euphrates, maybe. Try Sumer.

As we understand four civilizations seem to be formed at different stages but independently of each other.
* Sumer.
*The Indus River Civilization
*Egypt
* China.

The Persian Civilization came way much later.

Rachel

Posted on Jun 3, 2012 8:42:13 AM PDT
Smallchief says:
The garden of Eden is a mythical place, but if there was a model for it, I believe it was in the Tigris and Euphrates delta around about Basra, Iraq -- where today the Swamp Arabs live. That's where the earliest civilizations were and the abundant water of this region would have seen like paradise to desert dwellers. Plus, the Bible, if I recall correctly says the Garden of Eden is where 4 or 5 rivers join -- two of them being the Tigris and Euphrates.

Posted on Jun 3, 2012 6:41:44 AM PDT
i am starting to look for information on the origins of life in what is now India; my theory is that Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden which was in India and not modern Iran. Your suggestions ,please ?

Posted on May 29, 2012 10:12:24 PM PDT
freedom4all says:
Nothing last forever.

In reply to an earlier post on May 29, 2012 8:42:56 PM PDT
Rachel says:
Harrapa and Mohenjo Daro are fantastic as they exist in ruins.
Three factors could have contributed:
* As I understand they also found bodies which had injuries and the question was could these people have perished in a war and abandoned the place?
* Did the Indus River did not provide enough for their agricultural needs needs and changed course?
* overpopulation made them move?
They had trade with the Sumerians because we have found artifacts from there in Sumer.

I don't think we still have the total answers neither for the Maya or this Hindu culture.

Rachel

In reply to an earlier post on May 29, 2012 12:54:11 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 29, 2012 12:54:30 PM PDT
dischism says:
Thanks, Domenico.

You do make a habit of finding interesting articles. :)
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This discussion

Discussion in:  History forum
Participants:  12
Total posts:  27
Initial post:  May 29, 2012
Latest post:  Jun 4, 2012

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