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Hitler's mistakes

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In reply to an earlier post on May 15, 2012 12:06:42 PM PDT
vespasian says:
jeedgr, Im not a conspiracy buff, but Ive seen the way this country has fuctioned for ove 60 yrs. The middle class that grew during WW2 do to high payeng unskilled labor is gone. No more GM< etc. The question arises "Are there enough jobs in this country to maintain a middle class of 50-100k. I dont think so, Not many. Consequently both spouses are working at K mart to bring home a gross of 40K with no benefits, Sons and daughter can no longer afford to go to college and if they do, there are not many jobs. You and I grew up in the golden era of this country. Whats going to happens when 50-70% of the people have no decent work? History tells us Bachmann opens a Swiss acct as she can see the future. Many people in this country have dual passports.Hannah Arendt says that hate groups grew in Europe, after the decline of nobility, because cerain groups had a lot of money and the average joe couldnt see how he got it and was furious. The money is going away. Start speaking Spanish and tune up your lwan mower. Id say weve about 30 yrs...vesp ps Its always good to view history and current affairs with ones eyes open and not whistle as one crosses the graveyard. The Greekpapers are already calling the germans Nazis

In reply to an earlier post on May 15, 2012 12:12:23 PM PDT
Gregory Mays says:
>>Communism ( as we know it) and nazism were totalitarian and Zionism was not.<<

Well Zionism didn't have a firm place to establish a government between the Wars. I'd argue that socialism, or even communism, wouldn't have been out of question in an Israel of the 1920's. If you look at where most Jews lived at the time, this was still a potent and very much unresolved debate.
Admittedly, even back then, the influence of American and British Jews was such that, these would have been unlikely forms of government. But if Russian and Polish Jews were part of the discussion, there would have been debate.
I'd argue that the Labor Party in Israel today, reflects that Eastern European instinct for at least Socialism, and possibly things even more to the Left. Even the various Kibbutz movements, at first, had a sizable Marxist component. Because in Russia, they were connected to the Bolshevik Party. There was a later falling out with the Bolsheviks, but not over political or economic ideology, but rather the violent methodologies of the Bolsheviks.

In reply to an earlier post on May 15, 2012 12:15:26 PM PDT
vespasian says:
Suetonius, I was referring to the Hitler Mistake site. There is no question that there a severe battlegrouds of ethnic hate on the web and I avoid them. Im not Jewish either. But I dont like maniacs jumping all over decent web sites . By the same token as I said earlier, I like to be able to render an evenhanded opinion that someone Jewish might take offense to and then be slandered. I refused to hold my tongue as I believe in free speech.But I dont believe in bigotry altrose very recently Ive been accused of such...vesp I take no real position in the Israeli/Palistine battle- Ive no dog in that fight. But unlike 1984 and Stalinism, Im not going to rewrite history...

In reply to an earlier post on May 15, 2012 12:17:23 PM PDT
vespasian says:
Suetonius, There are nuts and there are nuts. These 9/11 antisemite nuts are even worth reading...vesp

In reply to an earlier post on May 15, 2012 12:26:16 PM PDT
Suet says:
You say they ARE worth reading? Which ones?

Posted on May 15, 2012 12:32:37 PM PDT
vespasian says:
Greg, The common denominator was the fall of the great empires and a rag tag mess left behind. There are always dictatord hiding in the woods. Look at Asia with The Kwimin tan, and Mao. Cambodia with Pol Pot , Myanmar now.. Suharto and The earlier Isabels husband in the Phillapines. The Midle east -Africa. The whole worlds full of dictators. I think it is the normal thing. The only thing that stopped them were either megapowers such as queen victoria, The Roman Empire Alexander the Great and other more powerful groups Thats why I ve always that the Congress of Vienna after (Napoleon)- another dictaor with its concept of balance of power, was the way to go. Demoloshing Iraq, and the middle east is going to make more trouble and committees of dictators..You know, It sounds crazy, but in the 19h,century, the Monarchical system was very well thought of and a lot of responsible people though of it, especially constitutional Monarchys,ves ps we became very close tto that if it wasnt for George III and Tom Paine

In reply to an earlier post on May 15, 2012 12:35:39 PM PDT
vespasian says:
Greg, If the Jewish money in the US wasnt involved in internal Israeli politic, a socialist gov would have a chance and IMHO be more successful..ves Is there a labor party today?

In reply to an earlier post on May 15, 2012 12:37:36 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 15, 2012 12:38:31 PM PDT
John says:
I would like to suggest grooming as one of Hitler's greatest mistakes. Despite the urgings of the General Staff, the Fuhrer was erratic about parting his hair - sometimes on the left, sometimes on the right. He often wore brown shoes with his uniform. As for his mustache - well, enough said.

Best, Sean

In reply to an earlier post on May 15, 2012 12:55:22 PM PDT
[Deleted by Amazon on Feb 10, 2013 3:09:29 PM PST]

In reply to an earlier post on May 15, 2012 1:01:28 PM PDT
Gregory Mays says:
>>The middle class that grew during WW2 do to high payeng unskilled labor is gone. No more GM< etc. The question arises "Are there enough jobs in this country to maintain a middle class of 50-100k. I dont think so, Not many.<<

The real question to me is;
"Is exporting and undermining your own industrial capacity worth it, if you believe that economic interdependence will avoid very large wars?"

In the 1970's we decided that was probably true. The Russians resisted participation in that model, but today even they adhere to it. The problem is, the American public was never advised on what corporations and the government were up to. But we got suckered in because Japanese cars, and Chinese Woks were cheap.

For people that saw huge losses in WWII, Germany, Russia, Japan, and China, they were certainly eager to adopt this model. The US public remains unsure of it, because we don't have the historic backdrop of WWII destroying our country. The Europeans and the Asians have that.
The 1950's were an aberration. The US had the only industrial infrastructure fully standing following the War. You're right, it was a Golden Era of sorts, but it was really unsustainable without isolationism. And I think everyone believed that isolationism in the US, Japan, and Germany of the 1920's, led to very bad things in the 30's and 40's. And not only did no one want to repeat it, they looked for ways to make it practically impossible. For better or worse, Free Trade was seen as the solution.
The US will probably dominate industrial innovation for a long time. But the dominance of the innovators in the marketplace, will be a more narrow window in time. The idea that GE would be the only company able to manufacture turbine engines in the industrial West for 40 years, is gone for good. Therefore the job at GE of making the same product, in the same factory, for a 25 year career is gone as well. But....young people accept that. It's the only world they know.
Although, the crash of that Russian Sukhoi airliner last weekend, on it's maiden voyage for marketing of all things, shows that the US and Europe dominating aircraft and jet engine manufacturing, is going to be true for a LONG time.

In reply to an earlier post on May 15, 2012 1:21:02 PM PDT
Jeedgr says:
There was a TV history program about the U.S. depression of the 1920's to 1940's with Herbert Hoover getting the great western hydropower and water programs going, the start of TVA and such (not a Hoover thing). It then pointed out how Roosevelt got the WW II manufacturing under way by calling in the heads of different industries and putting them in charge ( $1 per year men) with an agreement that some of the restrictions on industrial development after the war would be lifted. There were numerous post war agreements too; like destroying the unused jeeps so people would need to buy cars, same for small aircraft, restrictions on sale of left over military clothes and equipment (remember the "Army Navy" stores in town?).

Now when the country needs to re-orient the government goes out and calls in college professors in economics, education, marketing, management, health, environment for each of them to expand their Doctoral Thesis to a full National Scale over night. Look at the number of PoliScis, SocialPsycs, etc now in Cabinet level positions. Where have the heads of industry gone?

Just a thought.

JEE

In reply to an earlier post on May 15, 2012 1:26:12 PM PDT
Gregory Mays says:
>> If the Jewish money in the US wasnt involved in internal Israeli politic, a socialist gov would have a chance and IMHO be more successful..ves Is there a labor party today?<<

Another way of seeing things, is if not for American Jewish pressure, there would have never been a Balfour Declaration in the first place. And that's the founding document for a Jewish homeland in Palestine. So, to argue that they should have then kept their noses out of things, is unrealistic, if not illogical.

To my way of thinking, all Parliamentary systems have a large Labour contingent, even if it lives under a different label. Such as Germany, who like us, associate the word with Communism. But in Israel as in Britain, it's called the Labour Party.
Socialist governments don't gain much traction anywhere, not just Israel. Socialism is seen, for better or worse, as trying to control and restrain market forces, and being an impediment to Trade. That sort of rhetoric gets you nowhere today. Even in Russia. Putin may favor and even pursue a Socialist Directed Economy, but he's smart enough to not call it that.
Having said all that......Socialism called exactly by that name, is starting to gain traction in Greece and Spain. Socialists don't believe that free markets are the only, or best solution to systemic unemployment. Lots of takers on that sentiment in Southern Europe right now.<g>

In reply to an earlier post on May 15, 2012 1:55:18 PM PDT
Gregory Mays says:
>>Where have the heads of industry gone?<<

They've retired to Maui and Miami.<g>

Seriously...between Edison and WW2, the captains of industry were engineers by trade, by and large. Beginning with the likes of McNamara at Ford, their background began to be finance and marketing. Jack Welch was the last engineer to head GE.
If you're President of the US, you might want to call together the captains of industry to develop a marketing campaign for your Big Plan. But those guys won't help you with industrial policy.
Or more importantly, if they do, suspect a side agenda. Like when Cheney, as Sec of Defense, commissioned Halliburton to study what military functions could be outsourced, even during War. Not only were Halliburton's findings accepted and followed, but their 'Kellogg, Brown and Root' subsidiary had sole source on all the contracts for the next 15 years. Even while Cheney was CEO of Halliburton.
You wonder how a war could cost $20 billion a month? That's how.

In reply to an earlier post on May 15, 2012 1:58:25 PM PDT
Suet says:
A Socialist has just been elected President of France. A Social Democrat / Green coalition may form the next government of Germany.

In reply to an earlier post on May 15, 2012 2:46:17 PM PDT
Gregory Mays says:
>>A Socialist has just been elected President of France. <<

Socialist 'leaning'. French Banks have almost as much 'skin in the game' of Sovereign Debt as the German ones do. French politicians and public opinion doesn't like Germany dictating the terms of EU bank policy, any more than the Greeks do. But the prospect of 'Sovereign Debt Default' scares the French as much as anyone.

The worry is that if the Greek electorate illuminates a method for escaping German austerity dictums, there'll be a domino effect across Southern Europe and into Ireland.

You know, people say that leaving the Euro and printing Drachmas would render Greece non-credit-worthy to the point that no one would lend them money. And it would mean inflation that would remind one of 1926 Munich.

But let's think back on how this sort of situation played out in S. America as recently as 2000. The fear of Communism, meant that the US made sure the Argentinas, Venezuelas and Brazils always got loans, even after a total default on their foreign debt. You think the threat of a Communist NATO member, next door to Turkey, would be any less alarming? The EU may not fear a Communist Greece, but the US fears it enough for everybody. Greece has a strong hand to play in all this, and I suspect they know it

In reply to an earlier post on May 15, 2012 3:12:04 PM PDT
Joe Hill says:
"The US will probably dominate industrial innovation for a long time."

With the current US trend being to de-legitimize science in curricula, race to the bottom with teachers' salaries, and defund any scholastic activity that doesn't prepare a student to 'make change', I doubt it.

In reply to an earlier post on May 15, 2012 3:16:35 PM PDT
Joe Hill says:
"The EU may not fear a Communist Greece, but the US fears it enough for everybody."

Why? The US was able to stave it off by buying the Greek elections in the 1940s, a game plan we would certainly follow again today. Leaving aside, for the moment, the fact that even the Greeks are aware that Soviet-style communism, as a philosophy, is as dead as Franco ;-)

In reply to an earlier post on May 15, 2012 3:40:58 PM PDT
Jeedgr says:
Greg, Here is another list of coincidences making the news. Lets give this a try:

Rebecca Brookes being hounded to cover for the Murdochs.
Elizabeth Warren, a lawyer, being hounded for using an advantage of the law.
Ms.Drew having to take the blame to cover for J.P.Morgans Chair Himes.
Ms. Merkle in Germany that no one knows what to blame her with.
The new French Presidents female companion; could never do without that.
The tall woman (i cannot recall her name now) head of the IMF who probably could make the world economy move one way or another with one phone call.
Mrs. Romney who stayed home and raised five boys.
Mrs. Clinton who was not going to stay home and bake cookies.
And then of course according to a new book, there is Oprah who does not like the Presidents wife because she is too over protective.

Posted on May 16, 2012 7:48:18 AM PDT
Jeedgr says:
Here is yet another example of how well the U.S. understands the middle-east situation, taken from the lead paragraphs to an article in this mornings paper:

"HARRISBURG - Don't sign on the dotted line unless you've read what you're signing.
Just ask U.S. Rep. Joe Pitts (R., Pa.). He recently relearned that lesson the hard way.
Replying to a Chester County constituent's e-mail regarding Middle East tensions, Pitts wrote on April 20 that "it is now incumbent on Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasir Arafat" to hunker down at the negotiating table.
Problem is, Arafat died in 2004. And Sharon, no longer Israel's leader, has lain in a coma-like state since a massive stroke in 2006."

In reply to an earlier post on May 16, 2012 11:47:23 AM PDT
Gregory Mays says:
>>Leaving aside, for the moment, the fact that even the Greeks are aware that Soviet-style communism, as a philosophy,<<

I don't think a directed economy striving for full employment has lost any luster in Greece. No matter what you call it politically. It's what they had before the Euro. It's what Russia and China have right now.
I think it's being revealed that an 'Even Playing Field' in Europe has a small set of big winners, and a much larger set of permanent second tier players. Germany is essentially asking the second tier members to accept their fate. Political forces will eventually try to persuade the electorate, that they don't have to accept it.

In reply to an earlier post on May 16, 2012 12:46:43 PM PDT
Gregory Mays says:
>>With the current US trend being to de-legitimize science in curricula,<<

It almost doesn't matter what we do. The top technical graduates world wide will come to the US to work if they can. And I'd personally say that it's been that way for 100 years. Germans dominated chemistry and physics until their best and brightest left in the late 1930's.(mostly because they wee Jewish)
Now, there is an honest argument that this pattern helps US companies a lot more than it helps US workers. And there's some truth in that. But American kids don't go to college to wake up early and study Math and Science. Not in the numbers that we need anyway. They don't want to do it in High School either.
The Education System may be dumbing down the curricula. But it also could be that it's simply a reflection of our culture and the demands of the students and their parents.
And de-legitimizing science is s push back from people that feel their values have been under attack by science. First and foremost with Evolution obviously, but the Conservative Movement paints with a broad brush on the issue of science.
To give an example near me: Baylor University has one of the largest hospitals n the area. 'Spiritual Healing' is given as legitimate a stance in the hospital as surgery or drugs. Baptist alumni insist on it. The doctors (scientists) don't subscribe to this probably, but they have to give religion a wide berth, or they're gone.

In reply to an earlier post on May 16, 2012 1:19:38 PM PDT
[Deleted by Amazon on Feb 10, 2013 3:09:46 PM PST]

In reply to an earlier post on May 16, 2012 2:52:22 PM PDT
Gregory Mays says:
>>Uneducated people are easily manipulated , politicians learned it long ago,it works and it will prevail,unfortunately.<<

That's true, but in America it's a chicken and egg sort of story. Historically, Americans have always resisted being well informed, and they don't trust people who are. 'Open Mindedness' is not seen as a good thing necessarily.

Remember that Bush quote when he first met Paul O'Neill, his own choice for Sec of the Treasury:
"Are you one of those intellectuals?"

O'Neill was flabbergasted. Because in his mind, intellectualism is a prerequisite for any Cabinet job. Not with some people! Some people don't trust intellect, because deep down, they resent that intellect is often used to change opinions and impressions. For instance, in the South, intellect was used to oppose Segregation. Children were taught in school that it was wrong. Children had a different belief than their parents. And trust me, many people had a real problem with that. They literally felt, that the fight to preserve segregation was lost in the classroom.

Look at the numbers of American parents that want complete control of their children's education. They want to limit what their child 'knows', and control what they 'think'. They don't want a repeat of what happened with Civil Rights in public education. Because what's next? Evolution? Freedom of Religion? Gay Rights?

Can you imagine this struggle against knowledge in any other Western country? I can't.

Posted on May 16, 2012 3:38:02 PM PDT
[Deleted by Amazon on Feb 10, 2013 3:09:47 PM PST]

In reply to an earlier post on May 16, 2012 5:03:50 PM PDT
Gregory Mays says:
>>Soviet Union,it is just crazy to intentionally make kids dumb ,but guess what, - in "free"Russia that great model of academic education, i was fortunate to go through is deteriorating rapidly .<<

I happen to really respect many of the aspects of Soviet education philosophy and emphasis. Especially insisting on education for girls, whether their cultural/religious history supported it or not.
I was recently in Afghanistan and interacted with many foreign Asian workers. The workers from Kirghistan were head and shoulders more educated and technically savvy than any other country. I attribute that to their history as an S.S.R.
Plus they had an odd affinity for languages. I've never met a person from Kirghistan that didn't speak 3 languages. I witnessed one teach himself Hindi in the space of 3 weeks to better work with his Bangladeshi colleagues.
Sometimes I would surprise them. One cashier had a name tag 'Almaz'. I said, "Hey, that means 'diamond'!" He was excited but then he said, "How could you know that?!!" I knew Russian grammar better than any American they'd ever met. I didn't tell them I learned it in the Army.<g>
Army Russian linguists rigorously learn things that are usually very difficult for non-Russians. Declination of numbers being a prime example. Proper use of motion verbs being another.
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Discussion in:  History forum
Participants:  166
Total posts:  10000
Initial post:  Feb 1, 2012
Latest post:  Feb 13, 2013

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