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Interesting what if. WWII, repercussions of a Soviet collapse during the war.


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In reply to an earlier post on Jul 25, 2012 6:42:55 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jul 25, 2012 8:41:22 PM PDT
Creaney,
You write that "Those that have been there [Iraq] have a much higher opinion of our objectives....a large number also don't think the reporting has been accurate on what they do and what is going on.... the media really don't understand the military or the situation inside of Iraq."

The media is advanced enough to "understand" the situation inside Iraq. Their reporting misinformation is deliberate, half truths equals deception, in hopes of prejudicing Americans against democracy in the Orient. Don't forget, Clear Chanel with its 900 plus stations, was owned by Henry Kissinger who helped open the Peoples Republic of China to the West. The PRC has a large Muslim Uyghur population on its western flank demanding independence, amongst several other provinces of which the media has all but hushed up.

Wonder why Congress does not enforce the anti-trust laws in the media where these huge conglomerates own a mesh of publishing houses, journals, Hollywood, TV and radio stations?

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 25, 2012 6:46:04 PM PDT
I'm goin' surfin,
YOu asked Creaney: "As the democratic and republican ideal spreads throughout the Middle East, the whole region will stabilize. Especially once trade expands beyond oil... Who cares what the media [ours] thinks?"

The American voter needs facts to elect a responsible Commander in Chief.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 25, 2012 6:57:42 PM PDT
Creaney,
World War II revolved around the supply of oil, oil from the Caucasus, Roumania, and the Middle East. The grand alliance between Stalin and Hitler have been replaced by the PRC and Iran, with Syria as a sideshow. Not one media report has mentioned in the uprising against Assad that China has built the largest oil refinery in the world in Syria which is intended to process Iranian oil concessions for the PRC.

The media is reporting half the story, greatly misleading the American public about the huge advancements in military buildup of the PRC and its supply lines.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 25, 2012 7:11:22 PM PDT
Dodger Fan,
You write: back to John Ahlstrom: I think public support for Iraq fell when it became apparent that Iraq had no WMD, no links to 9/11. and was no threat to the US."

Have you wondered why the media is giving such brief coverage on Syria's WMD? Have you wondered why Europe and Sec. State Hillary Clinton have backed President Assad as an ally in modernizing the Middle East as recently as December 2011? They prefer this butcher of his own citizens to the potential chaos that might arise with no central control over munitions if Assad is displaced. Now where do you suppose Assad acquired these munitions? Try Saddam Hussein. This stuff is in the Congressional Record, by the way.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 25, 2012 7:16:36 PM PDT
Dodger,
You write: "On December 11-14 2008, An ABC News/Washington Post Poll of 1,003 adults nationwide, found 64% felt the Iraq War was not worth fighting, with 34% saying it was worth fighting, with 2% undecided. The margin of error was 3%."

Let me quote National Security Adviser and Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice about the Democrats: "Don't they think brown people are capable of self determination?"

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 25, 2012 8:02:35 PM PDT
IGS says:
Rachel

Never a truer word spoken. Never.

The last time one qualified enough to do the job ran was before I was born.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 26, 2012 10:50:14 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jul 26, 2012 11:07:52 AM PDT
F. Gleaves says:
John Ahlstrom says:
Stalin and Lvov

'Is anyone familiar with a story about Stalin and Lvov and Warsaw? I remember hearing that Konev in 1944 was afraid to capture Lvov until Warsaw had been captured because Stalin had not been able to capture Lvov in 1920 until Warsaw had been captured and he was afraid of doing something that Stalin had not been able to do.'

John,
That's the story of the Battle of Warsaw and 'the Miracle at the Vistula' in August 1920, when Stalin's meddling caused the rout of the Red Army, allowed the survival of Poland and probably saved Europe from falling to Communism in the next year or so.

Rated by military historian General J.F.C. Fuller as one of the World's Decisive Battles.

The Czarist officer turned Bolshevik Mikhail Tukhachevsky had driven the Polish Army back from Kiev to the gates of Warsaw after the Poles' offensive in the Ukraine collapsed when the notorious 'take no prisoners' 1st Cavalry Army of Semyon Budyonny cut the Poles' supply lines.

A gap had opened up between Tukhachevsky's North-West Front and the South-West Front of A.I. Yegorov and Political Commissar Stalin advancing on Lvov, well southeast of Warsaw.

From his HQ in Minsk, Tukhachevsky ordered Yegorov to halt and send the 'Konarmiia' of Budyonny and Political Commissar Kliment Voroshilov to close the gap.

However Stalin was eager to seize the city of Lvov before the Poles begged for peace on the fall of Warsaw, so he urged the willing Yegorov and Budyonny to continue their advance on Lvov rather than turn North to close up the gap in the line.

As a result Pilsudski's desperate attempt to get around the North-West Front's thinly-stretched southern flank was a success, and with Budyonny's 'Konarmiia' committed to Lvov Pilsudski was able to march his assault force unmolested around the flank and rear of the North-West Front cutting the Soviet lines of supply.

When the Soviet troops realized they were being cut off from Minsk and Moscow, they panicked and took flight. Tukhachevsky's entire North-West Front was routed by August 19.

The ultimate Victory came in the Battle of Komarów August 30 when Polish cavalry and infantry very nearly completed an encirclement of Budyenny's 'Konarmiia', sending the most feared troops in the Red Army fleeing for their lives.

The unexpected Polish victory was so complete that it ended Soviet expanson for nineteen years, making the Battle of Warsaw one of the most decisive and significant of the 20th century.

As a result, Stalin became determined to build a powerful military-industrial establishment before attempting to regain the lost lands of the Czars.

A bitter controversy arose between Stalin and his cronies, and Tukhachevsky and his supporters in the military as to who was to blame for the humiliating defeat.

It would end in the Great Purges of 1936-38, when the arrest and execution of Marshal Tukhachevsky for 'treason' would be followed by liquidation or the Gulag for half the officer corps.

Which convinced the Germans that they could quickly defeat the Soviets.

As Stalin's croney Klim Voroshilov retorted when Stalin rebuked him for the debacle in Finland: "What do you expect? You killed all the good Generals!"

http://www.historicaleye.com/Redcavalry.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Soviet_War_in_1920
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_at_the_Vistula

Lord D'Abernon, The Eigthteenth Decisive Battle of the World, London 1931.
Fuller, J. F. C., The Decisive Battles of the Western World, London 1985.

Posted on Jul 26, 2012 10:53:44 AM PDT
IGS says:
terrific post FG

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 26, 2012 1:38:36 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jul 26, 2012 2:12:50 PM PDT
briefcandle says:
"It would end in the Great Purges of 1936-38, when the arrest and execution of Marshal Tukhachevsky for 'treason' would be followed by liquidation or the Gulag for half the officer corps."

Almost true- it ends with the massacre at Katyn and revenge on the officer corps which inflicted the defeat.

re jfc fuller- a screwy character

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 26, 2012 8:31:30 PM PDT
[Deleted by Amazon on Jul 26, 2012 8:38:20 PM PDT]

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 26, 2012 8:34:49 PM PDT
Andre Lieven says:
JMC:'We only see what is not classified or has been declassified.'

That's the common excuse for bad decisions. Yet, what has come out since has been very clear that the Bush dministration out and out lied, many, many times, on these points.

'The problem is that we had a country shelting the same terrorists that were interested in the technology Iraq had and they had a history of using it.'

-That which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.-

'After 9/11 there was an urgency to not allow the wrong people to have the wrong weapons in their hands.'

No one sane suggests that Al Qaeda was after used T-72 tanks. That's the most advanced tech that Iraq had. Their WMD programs had been shut down following the post Desert Storm inspections.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 26, 2012 8:36:28 PM PDT
Andre Lieven says:
JMC:'The only religious pressure I felt in the military was from peers not in an official capacity.'

http://rockbeyondbelief.com/2011/01/05/smoking-gun-proves-mandatory-army-spiritual-fitness-test-is-religious-test-unconstitutional/

http://www.militaryatheists.org/

Posted on Jul 26, 2012 9:14:38 PM PDT
Andre Lieven says:
U.S. CBO estimates $2.4 trillion long-term war costs

WASHINGTON | Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:29pm EDT

(Reuters) - The U.S. wars in Iraq and Afghanistan could cost taxpayers a total of $2.4 trillion by 2017 when counting the huge interest costs because combat is being financed with borrowed money, according to a study released on Wednesday.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2007/10/24/us-iraq-usa-funding-idUSN2450753720071024

(Note: That only covers 2003-2007)

Cost of war at least $3.7 trillion and counting

By Daniel Trotta NEW YORK | Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:28pm EDT

(Reuters) - When President Barack Obama cited cost as a reason to bring troops home from Afghanistan, he referred to a $1 trillion price tag for America's wars.

Staggering as it is, that figure grossly underestimates the total cost of wars in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan to the U.S. Treasury and ignores more imposing costs yet to come, according to a study released on Wednesday.

The final bill will run at least $3.7 trillion and could reach as high as $4.4 trillion, according to the research project "Costs of War" by Brown University's Watson Institute for International Studies. (www.costsofwar.org)

In the 10 years since U.S. troops went into Afghanistan to root out the al Qaeda leaders behind the September 11, 2001, attacks, spending on the conflicts totaled $2.3 trillion to $2.7 trillion.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/06/29/us-usa-war-idUSTRE75S25320110629

The true cost of the Iraq war: $3 trillion and beyond
By Joseph E. Stiglitz and Linda J. Bilmes
Sunday, September 5, 2010

Writing in these pages in early 2008, we put the total cost to the United States of the Iraq war at $3 trillion. This price tag dwarfed previous estimates, including the Bush administration's 2003 projections of a $50 billion to $60 billion war.

But today, as the United States ends combat in Iraq, it appears that our $3 trillion estimate (which accounted for both government expenses and the war's broader impact on the U.S. economy) was, if anything, too low. For example, the cost of diagnosing, treating and compensating disabled veterans has proved higher than we expected.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/09/03/AR2010090302200.html

Silly punters who keep trying to deny these numbers, well, I wouldn't trust them to manage a chequebook...

Posted on Jul 26, 2012 9:32:04 PM PDT
Andre Lieven says:
As for mandatory religious activities in the US military:

U.S. Soldiers Punished for Not Attending Christian Concert Posted: August 19, 2010 04:50 PM

For the past several years, two U.S. Army posts in Virginia, Fort Eustis and Fort Lee, have been putting on a series of what are called Commanding General's Spiritual Fitness Concerts. As I've written in a number of other posts, "spiritual fitness" is just the military's new term for promoting religion, particularly evangelical Christianity. And this concert series is no different.

On May 13, 2010, about eighty soldiers, stationed at Fort Eustis while attending a training course, were punished for opting out of attending one of these Christian concerts. The headliner at this concert was a Christian rock band called BarlowGirl, a band that describes itself as taking "an aggressive, almost warrior-like stance when it comes to spreading the gospel and serving God."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/chris-rodda/us-soldiers-punished-for-_b_687051.html

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 27, 2012 9:45:33 AM PDT
*To Mr. J. Marzano - by 1943 -45 your synopsis on Hitler is 100% correct. In 1940-41 he was still in his more rational " frame of mind and he still missed his best chance {in my opinion} to win the war in 1940. Admiral Raeder and Goering had strongly advocated hitting Britain in the Mediterrianian and in retrospect had he listened to them, immeadiately planned and started the ball rolling

These threads facinate me and I once when people stood around boards I was into Wargaming and trying different strategies. There were some good strategic simulations.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 27, 2012 10:01:58 AM PDT
*No one sane suggests that Al Qaeda was after used T-72 tanks. That's the most advanced tech that Iraq had. Their WMD programs had been shut down following the post Desert Storm inspections.

Iraq still had Chemical weapons technology. I met three people that found bunkers full of chemical weapons and were involved in shipping them out of the country for destruction.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 27, 2012 10:07:10 AM PDT
*http://rockbeyondbelief.com/2011/01/05/smoking-gun-proves-mandatory-army-spiritual-fitness-test-is-religious-test-unconstitutional/

We are talking about pressure there is no pressure from asking spiritual questions. The army it trying to find ways to help people deal with stress and the hardships of the job.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 27, 2012 10:08:25 AM PDT
*(Reuters) - The U.S. wars in Iraq and Afghanistan could cost taxpayers a total of $2.4 trillion by 2017 when counting the huge interest costs because combat is being financed with borrowed money, according to a study released on Wednesday.

Eh the wars cost no more than 5% of spending and DoD total is less than 20%. What is costing the government is the 80% that is not DoD and having to fund 40% of that with borrowing.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 27, 2012 10:23:42 AM PDT
*For the past several years, two U.S. Army posts in Virginia, Fort Eustis and Fort Lee, have been putting on a series of what are called Commanding General's Spiritual Fitness Concerts. As I've written in a number of other posts, "spiritual fitness" is just the military's new term for promoting religion, particularly evangelical Christianity. And this concert series is no different.

That is an abberation and look in Ar 200-20 of what is authorized. I don't know the details of the case or how they were "punished". Often you are allowed to go to MWR events during work time. If you don't want to go you are supposed to be at work.

The Army does have a comprhensive fitness program because of the stresses of deployment and keeping up with the demands of the job. They are trying to find ways to make troops as psychologically fit as possible.

http://www.armytimes.com/news/2012/07/military-psychologists-question-army-training-program-070212w/

This is a more balanced view than those who seek to distort information for a political agenda.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 27, 2012 8:43:42 PM PDT
If Japan had attracted Russia on the western front give the Germans more concentration towards Moscow, their chances overtaking Russia with lesser resistance. Although Japan And Russia had signed a nonagressive treaty protecting their fronts. Japan never honored any pacts: attacking Pearl Harbor without warning, not honoring the Nevada Convention, disregarding treatment of prisoners. Germany success over-running Russia would have been an easy tAsk.

Posted on Jul 28, 2012 3:36:08 AM PDT
briefcandle says:
"Japan never honored any pacts"

except the soviet-japanese neutrality pact!

oh, and the tripartite pact- the italians then the germans ultimately ratted on japan :-)

Why don't you think before you write.
Your reply to briefcandle's post:
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In reply to an earlier post on Jul 28, 2012 5:56:47 AM PDT
F. Gleaves says:
I don't think Hitler objected to Japan signing the Non-Aggression Pact with Stalin in April 1941 - he probably figured he'd destroy the Siberian reserves before winter as well!

Japan actually tried to make an exception for the US and deliver their Declaration of War to FDR half an hour Before the attack, but the Ambassador had to type it up himself and was a slow typist, so the attack was underway before he got to FDR's waiting room.

The Japanese seem to have intended to machine-gun all their USMC and civilian prisoners on Wake Island, as they did with Lucky Chinese prisoners, but after keeping them sitting naked on the runway for 48 hours without food, water or medical attention, announced that the Emperor had graciously granted them their lives.

I guess Hirohito had figured it out that it didn't make sense to kill All American prisoners if Japan expected the US to eventually sign a peace treaty.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 28, 2012 2:25:12 PM PDT
briefcandle says:
I don't know what hitler thought of the sovjap treaty. I do know that the japanese government were not in on barbarossa in the slightest, and were as surprised as anyone else when it happened. Hitler probably was glad of it as yet another element in diplmacy working on the side of surprise, and being hitler he no doubt believed that the japanse could and would expediently abandon it.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 29, 2012 5:35:56 PM PDT
Andre Lieven,
Just google: "The Estate of John Patrick O'Neill" and 3,390,000 pop up. Start with the original court records listed below. All the information you and the Liberal media need to review the phenomenal involvement of IRAQ in 9/11 is here:

Estate of John Patrick O'Neill v. Republic of Iraq, et al
Plaintiffs are the Estate and immediate family of John Patrick O'Neill Sr., former
head of the F.B.I.'s counterterrorism division and the world's foremost expert on ...
cryptome.org/oneill-v-iraq.htm

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA
The Estate of JOHN PATRICK O'NEILL, SR.,
on behalf of JOHN PATRICK O'NEILL, SR.,
deceased, and on behalf of decedent's heirs-at-law

This is a lengthy lawsuit, but I suggest you read the entire thing prior making one more post on any Amazon forum.

What we should really be asking each other is why the Anti-trust laws are not applicable to the media monopoly covering up this information?

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 29, 2012 5:49:49 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jul 29, 2012 6:03:08 PM PDT
Creaney,
You write that our military expenditure is 20% of the entire budget and 5% allotted to financing wars? The Dept. of Health and Human Services consumes half of all US tax dollars.

We look around the world and witness the military rise of Red China, North Korea and Iran's ants chewing on the woodwork and wonder what percentages of their economy goes towards this dangerous alliance?
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Discussion in:  History forum
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Initial post:  May 31, 2012
Latest post:  Aug 3, 2012

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