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History of the Palestinian Nation (Part II)

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Posted on May 7, 2012 12:21:25 AM PDT
William B says:
AMAZON: Just what is the problem with my previous post? You need to re-post it!

In reply to an earlier post on May 7, 2012 12:26:12 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 7, 2012 12:29:05 AM PDT
Ben Uziel says:
'nebulous'!?!

The questions that title this thread are simple, basic, generic and prescient given the verbage in this land conflict.

The fact that you can't handle the questions, nor provide a cogent response to any of them is answer enough. But to cravenly defelct from this vaccuum of answers by trying to sully the questions because the identity of the questioner...is what any person who has taken a course in logic... fallacy of the ad hominem.

so which question specifically is the problem, or is the fact that the person isn't japanese, irish, afghani, tibetan make any sort of difference to the question itself?!?

But we have come to expect this attrition styled intellect from our resident trashman

any answers to the question or you can just answer one of my questions....or we can skip that and provide me distinct palestinian poetry from the 17th century?

nah i didn't think so

pathetic

In reply to an earlier post on May 7, 2012 12:33:36 AM PDT
Ben Uziel says:
lol...

In reply to an earlier post on May 7, 2012 12:56:39 AM PDT
Aetius says:
Ben Uziel says:
'nebulous'!?!

The questions that title this thread are simple, basic, generic and prescient given the verbage in this land conflict.
-----------------------
I was referring to what the "discussions" have become. As to the original questions, as has already been pointed out there is no standard for legitimacy when it comes to nations past, present, or future. Historians, archaeologists, and anthropologists don't have any standard nor does any particular nation or international body. There isn't any nation in the world either that recognizes West Bank & Gaza as part of Israel and all nations that have embassies in Israel, have them in Tel Aviv, not Jerusalem.

"But to cravenly defelct from this vaccuum of answers by trying to sully the questions because the identity of the questioner.."

If William is going to try and attack me for being "anonymous" it's only fair to point out the original questions you posted was made by someone who is also anonymous and despite what you originally posted, isn't actually a journalist nor Japanese. Also of note is that when I first posted genetic studies, your first response was the attack the geneticists involved in the study, rather then simply saying the studies weren't relevant, which would have been a far wiser choice.

".distinct palestinian peotry in the 17th century?"

There any historian that suggests that 17th cen poetry (or lack thereof) have anything to do with modern political legitimacy? Since there was no noted 17th cen poets in what is now South Sudan, Congo, Angola, Niger, Chad, Mozambique, Kenya, Tanzania, Mongolia and so on that then mean none of them are legitimate? Or back one century, and there's no noted 16th cen European poets in what is now the US or Canada. Guess they aren't legitimate either now right?

In reply to an earlier post on May 7, 2012 9:01:49 AM PDT
Ben Uziel says:
SUKE: I was referring to what the "discussions" have become. As to the original questions, as has already been pointed out there is no standard for legitimacy when it comes to nations past, present, or future. Historians, archaeologists, and anthropologists don't have any standard nor does any particular nation or international body. There isn't any nation in the world either that recognizes West Bank & Gaza as part of Israel and all nations that have embassies in Israel, have them in Tel Aviv, not Jerusalem.
----------------

You are one of the greatest contributors of blurring this thread! AGAIN no one is asking for a standard, I am asking for the documentation, the historical testament to this specific land in dispute and those participants within the dispute that make certain claims about the other claimants. What ever the testimony will be, that will be up to those who will evaluate there own scale of justice....but you are putting the cart infront of the horse....which is understandable because you are afraid the horse will sh^%* all over you.

SUKE: "If William is going to try and attack me for being "anonymous" it's only fair to point out the original questions you posted was made by someone who is also anonymous and despite what you originally posted, isn't actually a journalist nor Japanese. Also of note is that when I first posted genetic studies, your first response was the attack the geneticists involved in the study, rather then simply saying the studies weren't relevant, which would have been a far wiser choice."
_____________________
I know your not but what am I response is typical of your intellectual caste...as for making this discussion "nebulous" how about bring up genetic studies when asking historical fingerfrints (not ethnic) of palestinian origins...lol!!!

SUKE:There any historian that suggests that 17th cen poetry (or lack thereof) have anything to do with modern political legitimacy? Since there was no noted 17th cen poets in what is now South Sudan, Congo, Angola, Niger, Chad, Mozambique, Kenya, Tanzania, Mongolia and so on that then mean none of them are legitimate? Or back one century, and there's no noted 16th cen European poets in what is now the US or Canada. Guess they aren't legitimate either now right?
___________

Again.... the cart and horse problem. is there distinct palestinian poetry to show in the 17th century?!? let the answer be whatever it will be. Instead you refuse to supply an answer and then absurdly leapfrog your vaccuum of answers with a shrill falacy that this answer will impute the answer to the middle east conflict.

The truth is, SUke doesn't have an answer to any historical minded questions of the palestinian origins, what that means is for all of us to decide within a land dispute where one has much history and one shows very little history of sovereignty on the land in question. At least we know that calling jews occupiers may not be a historical descriptive remark.

Thank you suke for hammering the point that Palestinians have some serious deficiencies in their agit prop.. I wait for someone to still provide us some basic historical answers. So far no one has been able to.

Posted on May 7, 2012 9:29:15 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 7, 2012 9:44:22 AM PDT
William B says:
Sutekh:

Just a little forewarning so you can warm up your half-baked arguments:

The Biblical archaeology world is abuzz with anticipation over Hebrew University archaeologist Yosef Garfinkel's press conference on Tuesday, May 8. The press release for the event promises to "announce all-new findings related to the time of Kings David and Solomon, including presentation of artifacts never before seen by the public related to construction of Solomon's temple and palace." The press conference will be followed by a tour of the excavation site.

http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/news/khirbet-qeiyafa-excavator-to-announce-%e2%80%9cnew-finds-on-the-time-of-kings-david-and-solomon%e2%80%9d/

In reply to an earlier post on May 7, 2012 2:06:45 PM PDT
William B says:
Sutekh:

Thank you for demonstrating that have some modest skill with the Amazon search engine. May I remind you that you scoffed when you were presented with a peer-reviewed analysis of Mendel's work?

Peer review:

"The DEFECT [emphasis mine] in Mendel's overall data from the statistical point of view appears to be a deficiency of cases in which results deviate markedly from expectation (a point C. E. on which both A. W. F. Edwards and C. E. Novitski agree)."

Scoff:

http://www.amazon.com/forum/history/ref=cm_cd_et_md_pl?_encoding=UTF8&cdForum=Fx33HXI3XVZDC8G&cdMsgNo=6500&cdPage=260&cdSort=oldest&cdThread=TxV821H6IGG6C0&cdMsgID=Mx385CCMXMH1BXF#Mx385CCMXMH1BXF

Secondly, you obviously missed an important point. L. King has stated that that's his real name and Amazon agrees:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/pdp/profile/AY7ZS03I9M3PY/ref=cm_cd_et_pdp

Why did you not catch the "REAL NAME" Badge when it was first pointed out to you? Perhaps a peer-reviewed investigation into your insistence otherwise is in order.

Now, to the heart of our contentious debate: The questions presented in the IP are valid and noteworthy. The fact that you are unable to address them is the point and the fact that so many seemingly functional adults have fallen for Arafat's scam is the crux of the matter. Just how does a homicidal P.T. Barnum sporting a keffiyeh get you to swoon for his murderous hucksterism?

PS Before you respond, please get your Tardis tuned.

Posted on May 7, 2012 2:14:47 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 7, 2012 2:50:12 PM PDT
William B says:
Please be aware that our thin-skinned denizen of Dr. Whodom has been burning up the Amazon's customer discussion complaint hotline. He's likely really, really embarrassed about having to admit that he was caught in a flagrant error; so, please be cautious. Among other things he's particularly sensitive about the terms "arrogant", "ignorant" and "dense". Forewarned is forearmed.

Posted on May 7, 2012 3:31:26 PM PDT
[Deleted by Amazon on May 7, 2012 3:34:26 PM PDT]

Posted on May 8, 2012 11:35:58 AM PDT
William B says:
Breaking News-Evidence of Cultic Activity in Judah Discovered at Khirbet Qeiyafa

http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/category/daily/feed/

I'm certain that we will shortly receive a blessed explanation of these events from a renowned expert which will decry the Israel Antiquities Authority as lacking peer-review. Is there any doubt that we will be satisfactorily disabused of our primitive notions by this illustrious professional?

In reply to an earlier post on May 22, 2012 8:39:07 AM PDT
Cember says:
Sutekh states: 'The concept of a distinct Filastin and Filiasteens as opposed to a greater Islamic or Ottoman state is mentioned in writings dating back to the late 16th cen.'

To which writings are you referring? I've looked, and have been unable to find any such references.

BTW, at URL: http://www.drberlin.com/palestine/history.htm, I found a politically neutral and seemingly accurate brief history, which, while it does mention 6th century Arab use of the term 'Filastin', does not seem to be a reference to a distinct ethnicity.

Posted on May 22, 2012 12:40:22 PM PDT
Sixties Fan says:
http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/people-cultures-in-the-bible/was-jesus-a-jew/?mqsc=E3165

Posted on May 28, 2012 8:33:26 AM PDT
Sixties Fan says:
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/11706

Op-Ed: The United Kingdom Unites Against...


Published: Monday, May 28, 2012 12:27 AM

The writer wonders what the British expect to gain by boycotting produce from Judea and Samaria - and what the reason for it is.


Tabitha Korol
Ms. Korol, based in Ohio, USA, is the editor of Never Again Is Now, blogs at Victorious America, and Right Truth. She also writes for CAMERA.
► More from this writer


Tesco Direct, a United Kingdom supermarket has conformed to labeling produce imported from the West Bank, by Palestinians or "settlers," in accordance with the British government's official, but non-binding, recommendation of 2009.

In keeping with age-old Judeophobia (including 400 years of Jewish banishment during the Middle Ages, and England's blocking entry to Jews returning from the Holocaust), England seems to have joined a financial, existential war against Israel. The sharia-compliant unite in the non-violent boycott urged by a pro-totalitarian entity against a thriving, productive and charitable democracy.

The UK appears to have acquiesced to ignoring the legal boundaries that were established for Israel and uses armistice lines from a war that the Arabs began, but lost. The Green Line, neither an international nor permanent border, is an armistice line, marking positions held by both sides when the final truce was called at the end of the 1948 war, and remained so because Arab leaders refused to negotiate final border lines.

The Oslo Accords called for, among other things, Israelis and Palestinians to negotiate a final border between the State of Israel and a future Palestinian state but, to date, these outstanding issues remain unresolved.

For England or the EU to take it upon themselves to force the Palestinian position on the sovereign State of Israel appears to be an act of aggression. The Jews' right to settle the land is "a legal right assured by treaty and specifically protected by Article 80 of the UN Charter.

· - It was not because Palestinians came from Palestine, because there was no geopolitical entity called Palestine, no Arab nation with historical roots on this soil, and since the first century, Palestine was always associated with the Jews.

· - It was not because Palestinian land was stolen from Palestinians, because they never existed as a people and only took the name (1967) to link themselves to the land so as to establish credibility in conquest. Palestine was always home to Jews, and the Palestinian Brigade that helped England during WW II was entirely Jewish; the Arabs fought on the side of Nazis.

· - It is not because the Palestinians covet statehood and were denied, because they refused to accept the land apportioned them, rather hoping to appropriate Israel's land as well.

· - It is not because they'd lost their land, which was not theirs to begin with, but because they lost the war when five Arab armies attacked the newly established State of Israel - and lost the war they caused in 1967, and no leader came forward to establish peace with Israel.

· - It is not because they are the indigenous people who were exiled, because the Jews are the indigenous people and the Arabs want control over the entire Middle East - and Europe, and England, and America, and Asia, etc.

· - It is not because this one Jewish state, Israel, is land-grabbing, because Israel has seven million people on 8,000 square miles of land compared to 1.5 billion Muslims, a majority in 50 countries on over 5 million square miles of land.

· - It is not because the Arabs of Israel are a persecuted minority, because they are 20% of Israel's citizens and live better in Israel than their counterparts in Arab-ruled countries, where they are persecuted by their own religious doctrines and their leaders. Under Israel's administration of the territories, Arabs' lives improved remendously, from developed infrastructure, to expanded schools and universities, to opening 100+ health clinics, to growing employment, to a soaring life expectancy. The PA took over in 1994 - 18 years ago!

· - It is not because Palestinians would be a democratic state if allowed statehood, because in the entire world, there is not one single democratic Arab state - all are tyrannies in varying degrees.

· - It is not because Israel rules Gaza because Israel does not occupy Gaza, so that now Gazans are free to fire rockets at Israel daily - and the West Bank is controlled by terrorist Hamas.

· - And it has nothing to do with "settlements," as this is housing for Israel's citizens on legally-owned Israeli land, and the Arabs began the war long before Israel was founded and longer before there were "settlements."

I believe England has bowed as low as possible to Islam, from the moment that the Archbishop of Canterbury decreed Sharia law equal to the laws of the land, and brought about the situation where the new immigrants need not respect England's decrees, could qualify for entitlements and support, and would be free to bring violence to the streets.

The latest news: England's Guardian has declared Tel Aviv to be Israel's capital, not Jerusalem!

If the UK allows Islam to best Israel, whether by force or stealth/economics, then the British Isles will also be doomed.

Winston Chuchill wrote (1920), "We owe to the Jews a system of ethics which, even if it were entirely separated from the supernatural, would be incomparably the most precious possession of mankind worth in fact the fruits of all wisdom and learning put together," and he admitted the "disgrace that no senior member of the Royal family has ever undertaken an official visit to Israel although the Queen has made 250 official visits to 129 countries in the region"

England, with the help of the BBC, other liberal media, and the companies that refuse to stand for honor and integrity when confronted with the demands of evil, has joined the Islamic war machine - and is now experiencing financial and moral bankruptcy.

Islamists did not come to the West to escape bondage, but to impose their bondage on the free, by first blinding us with unsubstantiated, unjustified charges designed to demonize Israel, destroy her economy, and undermine freedom.

It may not be long before the country and the song, "There'll always be an England" are relegated to the annals of oblivion.

Posted on Jul 19, 2012 10:51:41 AM PDT
William B says:
60s:

RE: "There'll always be an England"

Rather, there'll always be a Jewish nation.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 19, 2012 11:22:18 AM PDT
[Customers don't think this post adds to the discussion. Show post anyway. Show all unhelpful posts.]

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 19, 2012 8:14:03 PM PDT
William B says:
RE: And you are doomed...

LOL And who are you, the great Folsom Street Mahdi?

Posted on Nov 20, 2012 6:05:36 AM PST
Ben Uziel says:
Hamas doesn't even pretend to be fighting for Palestinian nationhood! Created by the muslim brotherhood they are not about national liberation, they are are about Islamic revolution and generating an Islamic caliphate.

Posted on Nov 24, 2012 8:28:53 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Nov 24, 2012 10:36:22 AM PST
Ben Uziel says:
Why is the Arabs destroying all the archeological evidence on the Temple Mount like its that paper shredding scene in Oliver stones Wall Street. Good article in the Haaretz covering it >>>

In the summer of 1999, the Waqf undertook renovations on the galleries beneath the Al-Aqsa Mosque, what is known as "old Al-Aqsa." They contained the "double passageway," the only passageway preserved in its entirety from the time of the SecondTemple. Four domes were preserved in the double passageway with inscriptions carved into the stone, work done by Jewish artisans 2,000 years ago. The passageways became integral parts of a new mosque, Al-Aqsa al-Qadim.
Serious damage was again done in the summer of 2007. The Waqf requested authorization to dig a ditch dozens of meters long to replace power lines. Subsequently, the Israel Antiquities Authority issued details about the uncovering of a "sealed stratum of human activity," a layer of earth with pottery shards found broken in situ, where they had remained without change since the days of the First Temple. Twenty meters south of the eastern steps of the Dome of the Rock, a massive, ancient wall was uncovered which, according to expert opinion examining its location and size, could very well be the southern wall of the Women's Court of the Second Temple.
Despite the many legal petitions filed, mainly by the Committee for the Prevention of Destruction of Antiquities on the TempleMount, the Israel Supreme Court has not intervened, even though its members are well aware that Islamic groups continually violate the laws governing construction and antiquities. The Waqf, the Islamic Movement, and various Islamic groups have exploited the situation and have seriously damaged Temple Mount antiquities. The Israel Police plays the dominant Israeli role and its activities are coordinated with the prime minister's office and the office of the attorney general.
Since 2004, archaeologist Dr. Gabi Barkai and Zachi Zweig have been sifting through the rubble the Waqf removed from theTemple Mount to the Kidron Valley eight years ago. Among the ancient finds were many belonging to the late period of the Kings of Judea (8th and 7th centuries BCE). The most striking find was a seal impression with letters in the ancient Hebrew script of the last days of the First Temple.
In 2002, Hungarian archaeologist Tibor Grull visited the Temple Mount where he found part of a stone tablet, a fragment from a monumental Latin inscription which bore the name of Flavius Silva, Governor of the Province of Judea in 79-73 BCE and the general who laid siege to Masada.

In the wake of the 1993 Oslo Accords, the Palestinian Authority (PA), through its Ministry of Religious Endowments (Waqf), systematically eroded the administrative role that had been assigned to the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan as the caretaker of Muslim shrines on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem. In October 1994, the PA even appointed its own mufti for Jerusalem, who displaced Jordan's candidate.

Even though the Oslo Accords recognized Israel's jurisdiction over Jerusalem, pending any change reached through future permanent status negotiations, Israeli governments were extremely hesitant to confront the incremental but steady PA efforts to broaden religious control over Muslim holy sites in Jerusalem, especially on the Temple Mount. Furthermore, since the entire Israeli-Palestinian peace process had been launched under U.S. auspices, a full-scale clash over the Temple Mount could also lead to a U.S.-Israeli diplomatic crisis, which the governments in Jerusalem sought to avoid. These considerations continued to influence Israeli decision-making even after the outbreak of Palestinian violence in 2000, even though any expression of Palestinian governmental authority in Jerusalem was an outright violation of the Oslo Accords.
Is There Israeli Supervision on the Temple Mount?

In recent years, the Waqf has repeatedly challenged Israel by undertaking construction projects on the Temple Mount, many of which were unauthorized. Yet these initiatives have undermined the archaeological heritage on the Temple Mount, as well as the very stability of some of its structures. On May 18, 2004, the Internal Affairs and Environment Committee of the Israeli Knesset met to deliberate the danger of the possible collapse of the Temple Mount's eastern wall, some of whose foundation stones had weakened and cracked.

Yehoshua Dorfman, director of the Israel Antiquities Authority, and Micha Ben-Nun, director of the Licensing and Inspection Department of the Jerusalem municipality, told the committee that while they were both responsible for routine inspection and law enforcement on the Temple Mount, in practice they had been denied access to the Temple Mount and did not receive information about what occurred there.

Dorfman stated that, following a directive issued by the prime minister, the Antiquities Authority's inspection of the archaeological sites on the Temple Mount was partial, indirect and unofficial.1 "We receive all our information about what happens...from the Israeli police....We don't go there," he admitted. "We think we know what is going on as far as archaeology is concerned, but to say that I genuinely know...I wouldn't swear to it."2

Ben-Nun said that "while the Jerusalem municipality does have formal and statutory responsibility for the Temple Mount, in practice we have no access and no control over what happens there. Not only that, there is what we call the 'deliberate interference' of those who are in charge of it, whether the police or whoever, to keep us away and to minimize our knowledge. None of the information we receive is official and we have no way of obtaining such information. If the eastern wall collapsed, no one would tell us. No one talks to us."3

No one familiar with what is really happening on the Temple Mount was surprised by what they said, but rather by the fact that for once someone actually had said it publicly. This situation has existed for years and is no different today. According to instructions from Israel's attorney general, the certified authorities must carry out routine inspections of the Temple Mount, but in reality their powers are limited. TheJerusalem municipality, the Israel Police, and the Antiquities Authority were instructed by the Attorney General to report "any serious infraction discovered in laws governing planning or the antiquities [themselves]." However, the attorney general forbade both the municipality and the authority from taking steps to enforce the law (including demolition or issuing a demolition order), to take testimony, carry out detentions, or issue indictments without prior coordination with his office.4 In that regard, he himself was subordinate to the prime minister, to whom he had to report before any steps could be taken on the Temple Mount.5

The law governing the Temple Mount is explicit regarding the full jurisdiction of Israeli law over the location. Legal expert Dr. Shmuel Berkowitz summarized the main points in his 2006 book:6

All the laws of Israel are valid for the Temple Mount, as it is located on ground that has been part of the State of Israel since the unification of Jerusalem and the enforcement of Israeli law over East Jerusalem, including the Law of Planning and Construction, 1965, and the Antiquities Law of 1978. As early as August 1967, the Temple Mount and the Western Wall were designated as antiquities, as part of the Old City of Jerusalem and its environs. According to Article 29(A) of the Antiquities Law, no action is to be carried out, including actions of construction, demolition, earthworks, and change or dismantling of an antiquity without authorization from the Antiquities Authority.

According to the law, "Archaeological activities at...sites, which are legally defined as holy sites, are not dependent on the sole discretion of the IAA Director-General. Any changes (e.g., excavation, construction, preservation of ancient walls, etc.) require approval of the Ministerial Committee for Holy Places, which consists of the Ministers of Justice, Education and Religious Affairs."7

However, the discrepancy between the letter of the law and what happens in practice is vast.

The dominant, decisive factor on the Temple Mount is the Israel Police. A high-ranking officer in the police once said:

On the Temple Mount there is a delicate relationship between the Waqf and other groups, on the one hand, and the State of Israel, on the other. It is a give and take situation, carrot and stick. As far as the Antiquities Law is concerned, sometimes we prefer to settle things quietly with Islamic groups through private arrangements that remain private. We pay a price for that, sometimes a high one. It is a known fact that antiquities are being damaged on the Temple Mount. The alternative is a riot every other day. Those in authority have to decide what they prefer, and we prefer quiet because, with all due respect to the antiquities, the top priority of the State of Israel on the Temple Mount is quiet, not riots, even if the antiquities pay the price. In theory, the laws of Israel govern the Temple Mount, but in reality, the various authorities are careful in their enforcement because religiously it is a very sensitive location.8

For the same reason, the Israel Supreme Court treats infractions of planning and construction with kid gloves, and does not compel the authorities to enforce the law. For years, the court has respected the sensitivity of the state towards the Temple Mount, and displayed understanding for the "considerations" it exercises. One after another, it has rejected appeals lodged by various Jewish groups claiming that the Temple Mount is of particular importance to them, regardless of whether they are the Temple Mount and Land of Israel Faithful movement or the far more widely accepted Committee for the Prevention of the Destruction of Antiquities on the Temple Mount. The result, in any case, is that the antiquities are repeatedly damaged, and Israeli law and sovereignty are repeatedly flouted.

In the early 1990s, the Antiquities Authority unofficially inspected the activities of the Waqf on the Temple Mount. Dr. Dan Bahat, who was the district archaeologist for Jerusalem for many years, reported on this inspection to the Supreme Court.9 One of the informal understandings between the Antiquities Authority archaeologists and the Waqf was that the Waqf would keep the authority informed of its plans, but nothing was ever done formally because officially the Waqf does not recognize the legitimacy of Israeli control of eastern Jerusalem.10 During those years, Antiquities Authority inspectors had a fairly free hand on the Temple Mount. They could walk around, enter where they pleased, and document and take photographs of what they saw.

Posted on Nov 24, 2012 8:30:39 AM PST
Ben Uziel says:
Part II of the same article

In September 1996, the opening of the northern exit of the Hasmonean tunnel, an extension of the Western Wall tunnel, changed the situation completely. After the Western Wall tunnel riots,11 Antiquities Authority inspectors were limited to the trails reserved for tourists and were denied access to the rest of the Temple Mount. In other words, they were only granted partial access to the site and were forbidden to take photographs. Important underground sites were treated by the Waqf as its own property and were closed to Israeli inspectors, including Solomon's Stables, the old Al-Aqsa mosque and the Triangle Gate, and the area of the above-ground Golden Gate. With the outbreak of the Second Intifada in September 2000, even this partial access for authority inspectors ended as the Waqf cut off all Israeli entry into the Temple Mount.

Since September 1996, the Waqf has cooperated only with the Israel Police. Whenever the Antiquities Authority wants to examine a site on the Temple Mount, it has to coordinate its activities with the police, and the police do not always cooperate since their top priority is quiet, not antiquities. Sometimes, the inspectors have resorted to subterfuge by disguising themselves as policemen or tourists. In view of the damage done repeatedly to the antiquities, the Committee for the Prevention of Destruction of Antiquities on the Temple Mount was established early in 2000. Its membership includes author A.B. Yehoshua, former Supreme Court President Meir Shamgar, former State Comptroller Miriam Ben-Porat, former Tel Aviv Mayor Shlomo Lahat, the late Jerusalem Mayor Teddy Kollek, Meir Dagan (before he became head of the Mossad), and well-known archaeologists, scholars, and retired high-ranking army officers.
Damage Done to Temple Mount Antiquities in 1999

The damage done to the antiquities on the Temple Mount has been substantial. In the summer of 1999, the Waqf undertook renovations on the galleries beneath the Al-Aqsa Mosque, what is known as "old Al-Aqsa." They contained the "double passageway," the only passageway preserved in its entirety from the time of the Second Temple, from Hulda's Gates (blocked up today) in the southern wall of theTemple Mount to the square in front of the Temple, the main thoroughfare in ancient times. Four domes were preserved in the double passageway with inscriptions carved into the stone, work done by Jewish artisans 2,000 years ago.12

The Waqf excavated extensively and made irreversible changes, and the passageways became integral parts of a new mosque, Al-Aqsa al-Qadim.13 Members of the Antiquities Authority in 2000 called it "an archaeological distortion."14

In November 1999, the Waqf and the Israeli Islamic Movement dug an enormous pit southeast of the Temple Mount, 1,600 square meters in area and 15 meters deep.15 It exposed four ancient arches, four meters wide and ten meters high. The debris from the excavation was loaded onto 200 trucks which shuttled back and forth without interference, disposing of thousands of tons of earth rich in archaeological remains from all the periods of the Temple Mount. The earth was dumped into the Kidron Valley and the city garbage dump at El-Azaria, near Ma'ale Adumim.

The Waqf had received authorization for excavation at the Temple Mount's southeastern corner to construct an emergency exit for the new underground mosque (which had formerly been Solomon's Stables). Authorization was given to widen the mosque's main entrance to a maximum of two meters. The work was conditional on Antiquities Authority inspection, and included only two arches. The Waqf had no authorization to excavate to the depth and width actually completed. Supervision for the excavation was non-existent. Heavy equipment was used, including bulldozers, in violation of the accepted norms at archaeological sites, wiping out and removing entire strata. At the government meeting held to discuss the issue, Attorney General Elyakim Rubinstein called the Waqf excavation a swift kick aimed at the history of the Jewish people. Antiquities Authority director Amir Drori called it "an archaeological crime."16
More Damage in 2007

Serious damage was again done to antiquities on the Temple Mount in the summer of 2007. The Waqf requested authorization to dig a ditch dozens of meters long, eastward towards the hill on which the Dome of the Rock is built, to replace power lines. The work was carried out by small tractors and hydraulic shovels. Members of the Antiquities Authority occasionally visited the site but were of the opinion that the earth was ordinary soil and that there was no danger to archaeological remains. They paid no attention to the repeated warnings of members of the Committee for the Prevention of Destruction of Antiquities on the Temple Mount. The work was finished, the new electricity lines were laid, and the ditch was filled in.

Subsequently, the Antiquities Authority issue a formal statement which included details about a "sealed stratum of human activity," a layer of earth which, according to archaeological assessment, "has been preserved as a homogeneous whole, and even the pottery shards found there were broken in situ, and had remained without change since the days of the First Temple."17

The announcement caused a great deal of excitement in the archaeological communities in Israel and abroad. Although the announcement mentioned nothing about the discretion exercised by the Antiquities Authority, it was clear that a mistake had been made. Initially, the members of the authority thought there were no antiquities and allowed a tractor to be used. Some of them said informally that it was entirely possible that during the excavations other "sealed strata" had been damaged. Following the authority's announcement, the Knesset State Control Committee decided to turn the issue of the Waqf excavations on the Temple Mount over to the State Comptroller for examination, as well as the conduct of the authorities in Israel in their dealings with the Waqf.
Antiquities in the Rubble

It is only too evident that the on-going Waqf excavations on the Temple Mount, which are generally carried out without archaeological supervision of any kind, have severely damaged antiquities from many periods. Since 2004, archaeologist Dr. Gabi Barkai and Zachi Zweig have been sifting through the rubble the Waqf removed from the Temple Mount to the Kidron Valley eight years ago.

The project is being carried out in the Tzurim Valley, not far from the Mt. Scopus campus of the Hebrew University. The archaeologists in charge, aided by hundreds of volunteers, occasionally document new discoveries and publish pictures.18 An article appearing in Ariel contained information about finds described as "very small" because, during the excavation on the Temple Mount, the Waqf separated out the larger pieces from the rubble and reused the ancient building blocks, since the Waqf feared the police would prevent them from bringing new building materials to the site.

Among the small findings recovered were a few pre-historic flint implements, approximately ten thousand years old; many pot shards; about a thousand ancient coins; many varicolored items of jewelry made of various materials, including pendants, rings, bracelets, earrings and beads; decorations for clothing; amulets; ivory and bone dice and game pieces; ivory and mother-of-pearl furniture insets; icons and statuettes; stone and metal weights; weapons and ammunition such as arrow heads and musket balls; broken pieces of stone and glass utensils; stone and glass squares from floor and wall mosaics; decorated wall hangings and fragments of decorations from buildings; seals and seal impressions; and many other items.

The most ancient findings were glass fragments ten thousand years old. Only a few pottery shards and fragments of alabaster vessels were found belonging to the Canaanite and Jebusite periods (the early and late Bronze Age), but many items were found belonging to the late period of the Kings of Judea (8th and 7th centuries BCE), including stone weights for weighing silver. The most striking find was a seal impression with letters in the ancient Hebrew script of the last days of the First Temple.

One can only imagine what findings could have been rescued and researched if the pit dug by the Waqf on the Temple Mount down into Solomon's Stables had been excavated under archaeological supervision. For example, in October 2005, Hungarian archaeologist Tibor Grull reported on a find in the publication of the Albright Institute for Archaeological Research.19 In 2002, Grull visited the Temple Mount where he found part of a stone tablet, a fragment from a monumental Latin inscription which bore the name of Flavius Silva, Governor of the Province of Judea in 79-73 BCE and the general who laid siege to Masada. The Waqf permitted Grull to photograph and document the find, which was part of the dedicatory inscription of a triumphal arch built by the Romans on the Temple Mount after the destruction of the Second Temple and the city. Members of the Waqf told Grull that the fragment came from the great pit dug in 1999. According to the Antiquities Authority, other finds have made their way to the black market.

Zweig has also examined photographs of the ditch dug by the Waqf in the summer of 2007. By August 2007, the ditch had reached a length of 350 meters and an average depth of about 1.2 meters. Twenty meters south of the eastern steps of the Dome of the Rock, a massive, ancient wall was uncovered which, according to expert opinion examining its location and size, could very well be the southern wall of both the Women's Court (Ezrat Nashim) and the Chamber of Oils (Lishkat Hashmanim) that were part of the Second Temple.20

Despite the many legal petitions filed, mainly by the Committee for the Prevention of Destruction of Antiquities on the Temple Mount, the Israel Supreme Court has not intervened, even though its members are well aware that Islamic groups continually violate the laws governing construction and antiquities. For example, the court rejected a petition filed by the Temple Mount Faithful, determining on January 1, 2000, that it could not rule because the issue was "clearly the job of the government," since it had implications for public peace and the general good.

For this reason, the court ruled that while there was nothing to prevent it from intervening in cases of illegal activity on the Temple Mount, such intervention would be the exception that proved the rule. There had to be a compelling reason for the court to take exception to its standard procedures and trespass on the territory of the executive authority.21 Nonetheless, current petitions still under review by the Supreme Court are seeking its intervention to prevent the use of tractors by the Waqf on the Temple Mount, and to prevent any construction work at night.

The Sharon government began to reassert Israel's rights on the Temple Mount by re-opening the area to all international visitors in August 2003. But in the last few years, the Waqf's abuse of the archaeological heritage of the Temple Mount has been resumed. The bottom line is that officially, the Temple Mount is subject to Israeli law, while, in reality, Israeli law is not consistently enforced there. The government, its various authorities, and the Supreme Court accept the situation because of what is known as "the deeply religious and sensitive nature of the site and fear for public peace if the law were enforced there as elsewhere."

The Waqf, the Islamic Movement, and various Islamic groups have exploited the situation and have seriously damaged Temple Mountantiquities. The Israel Police plays the dominant Israeli role and its activities are coordinated with the prime minister's office and the office of the attorney general, while the Israel Antiquities Authority and the Jerusalem municipality have only limited influence over what is done at the Temple Mount.
Notes

1. Shmuel Berkowitz, Ma nora ha-makom ha-ze, (How Awesome Is This Place) (Carta, 2006), p. 403.

2. Nadav Shragai, "Reshut ha-atikot matria" ("Director of the Antiquities Authority Issues a Warning"), Ha'aretz, May 19, 2004.

3. Announcement made by the committee spokeswoman on May 18, 2004, and minutes of the meeting. Also mentioned in Berkowitz.

4. Berkowitz, pp. 388-9; a document from the office of the attorney general is in the author's possession.

5. Report from an official in the attorney general's office to the Jerusalem municipality, 1993.

6. See also Nadav Shragai, Har Ha-meriva, Ha-maavak al Har Ha-bayit, Yehudim ve-Muslimim, Dat ve-Politica (The Mount of Contention, the Struggle for the Temple Mount, Jews and Muslims, Religion and Politics) (Keter, 1995), pp. 299-306.

7. Ibid., p. 387.

8. A private conversation with the author.

9. The author was present at the deliberation. See Shragai, Har Ha-meriva, p. 303.

10. The various announcements issued by the Waqf over the years are in the possession of the author and were reprinted in Shragai, Har Ha-meriva.

11. There were four days of fighting between Israel and the Palestinians on September 24-27, 1996, during which 14 Israeli soldiers and 69 Palestinians were killed, and hundreds wounded on both sides.

12. Reported by Drs. Eilat Mazar and Gabi Barkai, both members of the Committee for the Prevention of Destruction of Antiquities on the Temple Mount.

13. Berkowitz, p. 394.

14. Minutes of the Knesset State Control Committee, January 9, 2000.

15. The report is based on conversations between the author and high-ranking police officials, members of the Antiquities Authority, and members of theJerusalem municipality. It is summarized in Berkowitz, p. 395.

16. Nadav Shragai, "Petzira be-Har Ha-bayit: be'ita be-historia ha-yehudit" ("Rubinstein: the Breach of the Temple Mount: a Swift Kick at Jewish History"), Ha'aretz, February 12, 1999.

17. The announcement was made to the press in October 2007 and concerned discoveries from the period of the First Temple.

18. Nadav Shragai, Ha'aretz, June 19, 2006, summary of article later printed in Ariel, "Sinun afar hasaf memtzaim Middle East-Bayit Rishon" ("Sifting through the rubble revealed findings from the time of the First Temple").

19. Nadav Shragai, "Luah even mantziah covesh Metzada...hitgala be-Har Ha-Bayit" ("A stone tablet immortalizing the conqueror of Masada, discovered on the Temple Mount"), Ha'aretz, November 1, 2006.

20. The Chamber of Oils was where oil and wine for Temple ceremonies was stored. For example, it stored the oil used for the Menorah of the Temple. For detailed photographs of 2007 damage to Temple Mount antiquities with Hebrew analysis, see http://www.echad.info/bait/hnewp29-8-07.htm

21. Israeli Court Rulings 94, p. 206, at the letters Aleph-Beit, and p. 203, Aleph-Vav. Also found in Berkowitz, p. 396.

Nadav Shragai is the author of At the Crossroads, the Story of the Tomb of Rachel (Jerusalem Studies, 2005); The Mount of Contention, the Struggle for the Temple Mount, Jews and Muslims, Religion and Politics since 1967 (Keter, 1995); and "Jerusalem is Not the Problem, It is the Solution," in Mister Prime Minister: Jerusalem, ed. Moshe Amirav (Carmel and the Florsheimer Institute, 2005). He has been writing for the Israeli daily newspaper Ha'aretz since 1983.

Posted on Dec 2, 2012 12:26:18 PM PST
Sixties Fan says:
http://www.imninalu.net/myths-pals.htm

Myths, Hypotheses and Facts

Concerning the Origin of Peoples



The True Identity of the So-called Palestinians

In this essay I would like to present the true origin and identity of the Arab people commonly known as "Palestinians", and the widespread myths surrounding them. This research is intended to be completely neutral and objective, based on historic and archaeological evidences as well as other documents, including Arab sources, and quoting statements by authoritative Islamic personalities.
There are some modern myths -or more exactly, lies- that we can hear everyday through the mass-media as if they were true, of course, hiding the actual truth. For example, whenever the Temple Mount or Jerusalem are mentioned, it is usually remarked that is "the third holy place for muslims", but why it is never said that is the FIRST Holy Place for Jews? It sounds like an utterly biased information!
In order to make this essay better comprehensible, it will be presented in two units:
·1) Myths and facts concerning the origin and identity of the so-called Palestinians;
·2) Myths and facts regarding Jerusalem and the Land of Israel.

I - Origin and identity of the so-called Palestinians

Palestinians are the newest of all the peoples on the face of the Earth, and began to exist in a single day by a kind of supernatural phenomenon that is unique in the whole history of mankind, as it is witnessed by Walid Shoebat, a former PLO terrorist that acknowledged the lie he was fighting for and the truth he was fighting against:

"Why is it that on June 4th 1967 I was a Jordanian and overnight I became a Palestinian?"
"We did not particularly mind Jordanian rule. The teaching of the destruction of Israel was a definite part of the curriculum, but we considered ourselves Jordanian until the Jews returned to Jerusalem. Then all of the sudden we were Palestinians - they removed the star from the Jordanian flag and all at once we had a Palestinian flag".
"When I finally realized the lies and myths I was taught, it is my duty as a righteous person to speak out".

This declaration by a true "Palestinian" should have some significance for a sincerely neutral observer. Indeed, there is no such a thing like a Palestinian people, or a Palestinian culture, or a Palestinian language, or a Palestinian history. There has never been any Palestinian state, neither any Palestinian archaeological find nor coinage. The present-day "Palestinians" are an Arab people, with Arab culture, Arabic language and Arab history. They have their own Arab states from where they came into the Land of Israel about one century ago to contrast the Jewish immigration. That is the historical truth. They were Jordanians (another recent British invention, as there has never been any people known as "Jordanians"), and after the Six-Day War in which Israel utterly defeated the coalition of nine Arab states and took legitimate possession of Judea and Samaria, the Arab dwellers in those regions underwent a kind of anthropological miracle and discovered that they were Palestinians - something they did not know the day before. Of course, these people having a new identity had to build themselves a history, namely, had to steal some others' history, and the only way that the victims of the theft would not complain is if those victims do no longer exist. Therefore, the Palestinian leaders claimed two contradictory lineages from ancient peoples that inhabited in the Land of Israel: the Canaanites and the Philistines. Let us consider both of them before going on with the Palestinian issue.

The Canaanites:

The Canaanites are historically acknowledged as the first inhabitants of the Land of Israel, before the Hebrews settled there. Indeed, the correct geographic name of the Land of Israel is Canaan, not "Palestine" (a Roman invention, as we will see later). They were composed by different tribes, that may be distinguished in two main groups: the Northern or Coastland Canaanites and the Southern or Mountain Canaanites.
·The Northern Canaanites settled along the coast of the Mediterranean Sea from the southeastern side of the Gulf of Iskenderun to the proximities of the Gulf of Hayfa. Their main cities were Tzur, Tzidon, Gebal (Byblos), Arvad, Ugarit, and are better known in history by their Greek name Phoenicians, but they called themselves "Kana'ana" or "Kinachnu". They did not found any unified kingdom but were organized in self-ruled cities, and were not a warlike people but rather skilful traders, seafarers and builders. Their language was adopted from their Semitic neighbours, the Arameans, and was closely related to Hebrew (not to Arabic!). Phoenicians and Israelites did not need interpreters to understand each other. They followed the same destiny of ancient Israel and fell under Assyrian rule, then Babylonian, Persian, Macedonian, Seleucian and Roman. Throughout their history the Phoenicians intermarried with different peoples that dwelled in their land, mainly Greeks and Armenians. During the Islamic expansion they were Arabized, yet, never completely assimilated, and their present-day state is Lebanon, erroneously regarded as an "Arab" country, a label that the Lebanese people reject. Unlike the Arab states, Lebanon has a western democratic-style official name, "Lebanese Republic", without the essential adjective "Arab" that is required in the denominations of every Arab state. The only mention of the term Arabic in the Lebanese constitution refers to the official language of the state, which does not mean that the Lebanese people are Arabs in the same way as the official language of the United States is English but this does not qualify the Americans as British.
The so-called Palestinians are not Lebanese (although some of them came from Syrian-occupied Lebanon), therefore they are not Phoenicians (Northern Canaanites). Actually, in Lebanon they are "refugees" and are not identified with the local people.
·The Southern Canaanites dwelled in the mountain region from the Golan southwards, on both sides of the Yarden and along the Mediterranean coast from the Gulf of Hayfa to Yafo, that is the Biblical Canaan. They were composed by various tribes of different stocks: besides the proper Canaanites (Phoenicians), there were Amorites, Hittites and Hurrian peoples like the Yevusites, Hivvites and Horites, all of them assimilated into the Aramean-Canaanite context. They never constituted an unified, organized state but kept within the tribal alliance system.
When the first Hebrews arrived in Canaan they shared the land but did not intermarry, as it was an interdiction for Avraham's family to marry the Canaanites. Nevertheless, eleven of the twelve sons of Yakov married Canaanite women (the other son married an Egyptian), and since then, the Tribes of Israel began to mix with the local inhabitants. After the Exodus, when the Israelites conquered the Land, there were some wars between them and the Canaanites throughout the period of the Sofetim (Judges), and were definitively subdued by King David. By that time, most Canaanites were married to Israelites, others voluntarily accepted Torah becoming Israelites, others joined up in the Israelite or Judahite army. Actually, the Canaanites are seldom mentioned during the Kings' period, usually in reference to their heathen customs introduced among the Israelites, but no longer as a distinguishable people, because they were indeed assimilated into the Israelite nation. When the Assyrians overran the Kingdom of Israel, they did not leave any Canaanite aside, as they had all become Israelites by that time. The same happened when the Babylonians overthrew the Kingdom of Judah.
Therefore, the only people that can trace back a lineage to the ancient Canaanites are the Jews, not the Palestinians, as Canaanites did not exist any longer after the 8th century b.c.e. and they were not annihilated but assimilated into the Jewish people.
Conclusion: the Palestinians cannot claim any descent from the ancient Canaanites - if so, why not to pretend also the Syrian "occupied territories", namely, Lebanon? Why do they not speak the language of the ancient Canaanites, that was Hebrew? Because they are NOT Canaanites at all!

(full article online)

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 6, 2012 9:10:26 AM PST
King's Kid says:
The Saudis took the palestinian's land. It's all a ploy to get Israel off the map.

Posted on Dec 6, 2012 9:11:06 AM PST
King's Kid says:
Lying raghatted mfs

Posted on Dec 26, 2012 6:04:42 AM PST
Ben Uziel says:
Here we can see the islamists trying to remove the evidence in order to make their myths more and more to replace the reality

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hyVDrzcp4w

I wonder if their is any vids of jews removing palestinian archeology?!? i

Posted on Jan 2, 2013 6:11:24 PM PST
Lientje says:
Well, well. The Jews vs Goyim shuts down, and another one of very similar nature pops up. Surprise, surprise.

Same old gang. I wonder if I put the word anti-semite into this forum's "search" what the count would be.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 2, 2013 6:21:36 PM PST
Susanna says:
This has been around for a while actually. I'm glad you posted though, because it might drag Ben Uziel into the thread. :)

Besides, there are several Jew hating threads still going, as usual.
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