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Was Poland the 2nd biggest Loser of WWII?

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In reply to an earlier post on Oct 11, 2011 12:50:44 AM PDT
Rachel says:
JOh M. Lane:

Himmler started to do a lot of moves so that he could be perceived as taking the mantle to rule Germany. He gave the order to stop the gassing in Auschwitz with that precise purpose.

It was not going to happen. Beyond unrealistic, he know he had dirty hands as anybody else and more.



In reply to an earlier post on Oct 11, 2011 12:52:17 AM PDT
Rachel says:

I did not know this! I mean a first attempt postponed.

Thank you!


In reply to an earlier post on Oct 11, 2011 12:58:52 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Oct 11, 2011 7:18:08 PM PDT
Rachel says:
John M. Lane:

You hit the nail~!

This is they ploy why he stopped the gassing of all places but of course, Auschwitz is my problem! Exactly in Switzerland.

I just read Gutman that maybe Jews acted wrongly, if this that type of exchanges could be done, maybe we should have done more and save more Jews. The corruption of the Nazis was there we should have taken more advantage of it and save Jews that way, even if it not so kosher! As you mentioned, too, many of the leaders did not know all the details, and even when they knew them they did not dare to believe them. So they did not take advantage of the Nazi corruption as much as they should have done.


In reply to an earlier post on Oct 11, 2011 1:02:39 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Oct 11, 2011 7:18:42 PM PDT
Rachel says:

Bless them! They deserve it. it was part of the arrogance not to lay low.


In reply to an earlier post on Oct 11, 2011 12:06:30 PM PDT
John M. Lane says:
I believe you're correct about Himmler, Beate Klarsfeld. He was the one who restored the ancient castle at Wewelsburg (?). He had a room in which the severed heads of SS heroes were preserved in alcohol, from what I've read. He used to go in there and talk with them.

He even staged pageants in which SS officers dressed up in the garb of Teutonic Knights and paraded around with swords on horseback. Himmler wasn't a good rider and sat those out. Hitler was afraid of horses, although he always wore riding pants and boots like a cavalry officer and loved being pictured on horseback by artists.

Profesor Lothar Machtan, in THE HIDDEN HITLER, demonstrates that Hitler was homosexual. Scott Lively and Kevin Abrams affirmed in THE PINK SWASTIKA that homosexuality was an integral part of the early Nazi Party, despite later homophobic regulations forbidding it. The authors suggest that the regulations were camouflage designed to appease the Reichswehr, which was homophobic and refused to cooperate with Roehm (an open homosexual) and his SA. Roehm pushed to get the SA designated as "the Nazi Army."

Hitler responded by murdering Roehm and elevating the SS to the status of a "state within a state." Roehm's intimates were also murdered, thus decapitating the SA and reassuring the Army.

Himmler quickly consolidated all police functions within the SS. The Prussian State Police, which had caused a lot of trouble for the Nazis, was placed directly under Goering's leadership and its Gestapo, which was a small unit originally organized to provide security for the Hohenzollerns (the Prussian royal family) was expanded into a Nazi thought police apparatus augmented by Heydrich and his SD.

Himmler was goofy, but lethal. Even his own officers dreaded him.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 11, 2011 12:08:45 PM PDT
John M. Lane says:
I'd forgotten about Mossad's program, Beate Klarsfeld. They're an excellent agency. I wish the US was as well served by its own intelligence agencies.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 11, 2011 12:26:03 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Oct 11, 2011 12:27:44 PM PDT
John M. Lane says:
Dear Rachel,

Once Himmler realized that the Nazis were going to lose the war, he tried to position himself to be acceptable to the Allies. That seems naive, I know, but I think he was a naive man in many ways.

He reminds me a bit of Rudolf Hoess, Auschwitz's Commandant. He excused his participation in mass murder by saying that he was "just following orders."

I believe Himmler tried to make it clear that he was "just following Hitler's orders." I can't prove that.

By the way, Hoess' book, DEATH DEALER, has a lot of information about how the death camp was operated. Filip Mueller's EYEWITNESS AUCHWITZ, also gives a lot of details about the kapos. He was on the sonderkommando which cleared out the gas chambers at Auschwitz. Miklos Nyiszli's AUSCHWITZ: A DOCTOR'S EYEWITNESS ACCOUNT is also informative.

Deborah Dwork and Robert Jan van Pelt's AUSCHWITZ has a wealth of detail. So does van Pelt's THE CASE FOR AUSCHWITZ: EVIDENCE FROM THE IRVING TRIAL.

I remember my kinsmen talking about the benefits of "making the Jews do the dirty work in the camps," or words to that effect. He didn't think it was fit work for Aryans like us. Of course he wasn't stationed at a death camp. I believe that Fegelein's cavaly, however, remained a part of the Allgemeine SS, which did operate the camps. The cavalry had originally been classified as a ceremonial/athletic unit organized for the 1936 Olympics in Berlin. My cousin was a good enough horsemen that he ended up at the SS riding academy in Munich as an instructor for a while. I don't think the cavalry was ever incorporated into the Waffen SS, however. He saw service in the East, but wasn't really part of the Waffen SS chain of command. He could ride like a Cossack which saved him a number of times. He used a Cossack saddle with a high seat and a riding crop instead of spurs. His own men would shoot at him now and then, but the Red Army snipers left him alone.

By the way, your point about Nazi corruption was well taken. They were a corrupt bunch by almost any standard.


In reply to an earlier post on Oct 11, 2011 4:49:41 PM PDT
Susanna says:
HI Rachel,

I have to try to remember where I read it :( Let me check my most frequently used books.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 11, 2011 5:36:10 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Oct 11, 2011 5:45:15 PM PDT
patrick says:
im not sure that showing the Saddams and Dinnerjads that we can put a hit on them really does prove much that wasnt already known.

Osama is a different matter.
I absolutely commend the hits on Osama and Awaki.
Christ, I wish it was me squeezed them off, or that at least I had witnessed it.
I can never understand why Israel doesnt kill the Hezbolah mullah in Lebanon...Nasrallah...thats the MFers name.

Posted on Oct 11, 2011 5:43:38 PM PDT
patrick says:
and yes, in Hitlers case, it is entirely possible that Valkyrie would have run just to plan, which I assume that Staufenbergs conspirators would have had to bring the allies unconditional surrender, the end of Nazi rule, and trials of Nazis as well as Hitlers head..therefor it was a comprehensive plan for trimming 9 months off the European war..

if only the bomb/s would have done their jobs and actually killed him.

Iran is different, Iraq was different, North Korea is probably different and is also a paranoid nucear-armed state..
Particularly Iran, where DinnerJad is effectively a figurehead anyway...even if a repellant figurehead.
with saddam, there were all of his twisted sons, and many very evil MFers in his regime.
All good to go to take the reins.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 12, 2011 5:14:07 PM PDT
S. Kessler says:
Let's face it, in hellish circumstances people will do anything to survive. For some Jews, being made a kapo meant an extra crust of bread or an extra potato in the soup. No one in the camps knew what was coming next. It was a day by day, moment by moment existence, and one took whatever advantage, no matter how slim, hoping that they might be the one to outlet their tormentors and find their way back to their families.

In many cases, Jewish prisoners were assigned to collect the clothes and gold teeth of those who were shoved into the gas chambers before they were put in the ovens. All they knew is if they refused the work, they would be shot or worse. In some extermination camps, Jewish inmates would be made to dig the pits. Then found themselves the next in line to be sent to the gas chambers and ovens despite having done the Nazi's clean up.

It was an evil business, no matter how you look at it.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 12, 2011 5:24:07 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Oct 12, 2011 5:25:17 PM PDT
John M. Lane says:
I haven't done a lot of research on kapos, S. Kessler, but presume that you are correct in your post.

I did find some information from a Jew who survived the Nazi death factory at Auschwitz-Birkenau. He recalled that "the Kapos were inmate foremen.... Nearly all of them were non-Jews, and most were German. They came from a wide variety of backgrounds: they were con men, desperadoes, convicted murderers, and petty criminals. Among them were also former soldiers from the International Legion." (Source: Benjamin Jacobs, THE DENTIST OF AUSCHWITZ: A MEMOIR. Lexington: The University Press of Kentucky, 2001, pp. 125, 126.)

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 13, 2011 10:59:13 PM PDT
"Yes, wiki puts them at the top"

which means nothing at all as wikipedia says what the authors want it to say...

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 13, 2011 11:01:17 PM PDT
"I don't recall the specific source, but the estimates were staggering and casualty estimates in the Pacific had typically been low. It would have been a bloodbath that dwarfed both Hiroshima and Nagasaki. "

US war department estimated at least half a million to a million US dead and wounded, and 2 million or more Japanese dead and wounded in case of an invasion of the home islands.
And as you state, their estimates were usually on the low side to put it mildly, so double them to get a more realistic number.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 13, 2011 11:02:48 PM PDT
"I am very glad that they didn't consider tactical nukes as they would likely kill as many Allies as Japanese. "

if they'd had them, they'd have considerd using them. But they didn't have them. After the Trinity test, there was fissionable material left for just 4 bombs.
Of course by today's standards, those were all tactical (current strategic weapons are 10 times or more powerful).

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 14, 2011 7:54:02 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Oct 14, 2011 2:57:46 PM PDT
IGS says:

First, you are VERY late to this discussion as all of your particular "insights" have been well discussed in MANY posts.

You second point is not knowledgeable at all. Having fissionable material, and putting into a bomb and preparing it for use are somewhat not straight forward tasks. Four would have been enough. Today's weapons are not ten times stronger. Multistage warheads are measured in megaton yield and are believed to range in the 1-5 MT range with larger such weapons believed to exists and others increasing beyond a useful range of yields. Given that the Hiroshima bomb was generally about 17 kT, that would make today's bombs at lease a 100X large. Even the separate re-entry modules of MIRV'ed warheads are believed to be20 or more times stronger. If you want to discuss this stuff, the A-bomb threads are only to willing to discuss them ... ad nauseum. Pick one of them. Be warned, they are hundreds of posts long.

But, please make helpful comments. All of us are aware of the limitations and advantages of wiki as a source. You are not some freaken' genius who just figured this out. You start at wiki, then look at the sources briefly, then you look up a few contrary sources to arrive at a reasonable if not authoritative answer. In this particular case is was probably about right.

Please, Mr. Contrarian Bandwagon ... if you can't help or contribute STFU.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 14, 2011 2:17:52 PM PDT
patrick says:
17 kt, not MT, surfin'..

Actually the numbers Ive read on it most recently put Little Boy at 14-15 kt, and Fat Man Nagasaki at 16-18 kt..

apparently oddly enough, as I read it in "Ruin From the Air" trinity was actually a Plutonium bomb, it was not the first weapon made, Little Boy Ur235 was actually the first article completed, but not to be the first detonated..

It would tend to have been assumed, including by me, that they were used in the same order manufactured..and in order of sophistication.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 14, 2011 3:20:04 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Oct 14, 2011 9:19:54 PM PDT
IGS says:
patrick ... thanks .... BIIIIG difference.

The enriched U235 bomb used in Little Boy was a shot type fission device. Relatively easy to construct and not complicated mathematically or physically.

Fat Man was an implosion device made of Pu 239. The implosion geometry was a bit of a bitch to work out but was more efficient (i.e., higher yield per gram of fissile material used). Additionally, using Pu 239 inherently includes the presence of a Pu 240 contaminant that affects the performance of the weapon and is prone to some pre-ignition neutron bombardment (i.e., a mini fission event that degrades the materials and can lead to some ... undesirable consequences). We had to work out the math including a suitable geometry in my nuclear chemistry class for one of our homework question. The professor had a pretty wicked sense of humor. Some students even objected to the problem (probably because they got it wrong!). As I recall, I missed a portion of the problem as well (Well whaddaya want, it was hard!). Anyway, I don't really know the details of the Manhattan bombs (I think they may still be classified) but they were likely similar to the one's we used with 10 kg Pu 239 with some minor amount of Pu 240. I do wonder what would have happened if the used my 87% correct solution?

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 14, 2011 8:09:10 PM PDT
patrick says:
it is fascinating science qualitatively, , although the physics higher math involved would always either defeat me quantitatively, or just be too much hard work for me, even though I was always very quick and sharp at practical arithmetic.

I was always surprised how deeply tom Clancy would get into A-bomb and T-nuclear techs in novels like The Sum of All Fears..

Posted on Oct 16, 2011 9:50:35 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Oct 16, 2011 4:25:49 PM PDT
Rachel says:

I just finished Wynot bookCaldron of Conflict: Eastern Europe, 1918-1945 (European History Series). it is a short book with a bibliographical review at the end instead of footnotes, and he goes country by country essay of what happened there.

Sadly, yes, Poland lost a lot, but the caldron is more complicated than that and this book helps to clarify it from the Balkans to Poland.

Have a nice Sunday!


In reply to an earlier post on Oct 16, 2011 3:39:17 PM PDT
Shark-bait, can't you formulate even a remotely sensible comment?

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 17, 2011 3:09:51 PM PDT
George Brown says:
Appreciate the Rec'd; I willcheck it out.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 17, 2011 3:54:45 PM PDT
Rachel says:

I think you will be enlightened. Thanks.


In reply to an earlier post on Feb 1, 2012 5:32:25 PM PST
I agree. I get angry when people attack the Nazi-Soviet pact. Stalin tried to get GB and France to stand up to Germany (munich agreement, spanish civil war) and they wouldn't. It was a preventive pact who even he didn't believe would last.
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Discussion in:  History forum
Participants:  26
Total posts:  199
Initial post:  Sep 30, 2011
Latest post:  Feb 1, 2012

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