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History of the Palestinian Nation (Part II)

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Initial post: Mar 7, 2010 12:43:10 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Mar 7, 2010 10:55:58 PM PST
Ben Uziel says:
Since the first 10,000 posts failed to provide answers to these basic questions maybe a second go around may yield better results.

If no answers can be found, it follows to what degree does these lack of answers reveal when attempting to unravel the current Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

so without further ado...

A series of questions made by a Japanese Journalist (of course not a western reporter) that deserves our consideration.

For those who are so sure that "Palestine", the country, goes back through most of recorded history", I expect you to be able to answer a few basic questions about that country of Palestine, and its respective citizen that demand so many rights and privileges...

When was it founded and by whom?

What were its borders?

What was its capital?

What were its major cities?

What constituted the basis of its economy?

What was its form of government?

Can you name at least one Palestinian leader before Arafat or the Grand Mufti?

Was Palestine ever recognized by a country whose existence, at that time or now, leaves no room for interpretation?

What was the language of the country of Palestine?

What was the name of its currency?

Choose any date in history and tell what was the approximate exchange rate of the Palestinian monetary unit against the US dollar, German mark, GB pound, Japanese yen, or Chinese yuan on that date?

And, finally, since there is no such country today, what caused its demise and when did it occur?

Posted on Mar 7, 2010 1:28:13 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Mar 7, 2010 1:30:19 PM PST
Smallchief says:
To the contrary, I believe it has been definitively proven that the Palestinians have as much right to call themselves a nation as any other people.

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 7, 2010 3:08:01 PM PST
Mark bennett says:
What you are seeing here is Israeli propaganda circa 1985 repeated endlessly by the die-hard Israeli right and their supporters overseas.

This line of debate ceased to have any meaning around the time of the creation of the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and Gaza. Only die-hard reactionaries run around today repeating the propaganda of the 1970s that Palestinians do not exist. Or imagine that Israel can annex the west bank and gaza without annexing the people that live there.

These people can also prove, through the "scholarship" of Joan Peters, that Israel was an empty land when the Jewish settlers arrived.

The problem this line of questioning has is: Assume that its true. Assume that Palestinian nationalism is completely false. Assume that this is universally accepted.

What then is to become of all those people in the west bank and gaza who are not palestinians? Will Israel offer them citizenship? Are they to be ethnically cleansed (called "transfer" in Israel)? Or are they to remain stateless persons under Israeli rule until the end of time?

Assume everything you say is true. How does that fix the problem or change the situation in the middle east at all?

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 7, 2010 3:23:05 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Mar 7, 2010 6:55:01 PM PST
Rachel says:
Shalom Ben Uziel:
Please correct it is without further ado. Adieu is in French meaning good by, be GD with you.
Also privileges. I mention these two typos because you will have DQ on top of you and I don't care one bit about him. You are definitely more important and knowledgeable.

Otherwise, all these questions are fine and I will be here to add what is necessary to answer for the second time a very important question that can solve the Palestinian question?

Die Frage is fraught with unknowns. For the most part the Arab people in that area were tribal and nomad and there was not any question of unity or even developing a nation-state. The way Arab people were united was through a new religion called Islam. This religion not only united Arabs but subjugated any other group from which an empire was formed. As they expanded -they expanded to Vienna,but they were stopped there. They also went through North Africa to Spain and they settled there and they were stopped by Charles Martel from going further. No talk here at all about Palestinians. None.

Meanwhile, The people in the original area where Mohammed made Islam continued to be tribal and were not really united. We have leaders like Saladin the Magnificent, but he is not a leader of the Palestinian people at all, rather as conqueror of the Holy Land.

Since they thought their religion was best they put all the others including Christianity on Dimmitude which means a second class citizenship, tax an concentrated in its own area. This is the same system that was in place during the Ottoman Empire and the Mellahs. We don't hear about Palestinians in this period at all either.

The Egyptians are not Arabs,but they are Moslems. They have had for a long time crumbling, corrupt and hypocritical regimes that don't cater to the needs of their people. So, a Leader named Nasser was in cahoots with the Russians and got arms from them during the cold War. Egypt had that area and there is no mention on their part about Palestinians. The only thing I know is that Mohammed Salah , Egypt's Foreign Minister said, that he would not solve the problem to of the people in the area because they needed them as a thorn in the back of Israel. So the Egyptians did not treat this group of Arabs, probably a mix of many areas, since many came to work for the Kibbutzim and stayed. As long as there was no awakening there were jobs.

Enter Haj Amin A Husseini. It is the British who put him during the Mandate as a leader because the Husseinis were an important family in the area. He was not accepted by all because of the above mentioned inter-tribal rivalries. Which by the way that is why all Arab countries go together to war, lest one of them gets something that the others do not get. The inter tribal stuff goes on and on. NO mentioned then during the Second World War of Palestinians either- as a separate group of people.

Yet, the British renamed the area they took from the "sick man of Europe" as a mandate Palestine. So this is the way that my father became Palestinian while working in the Kibbutz. Al people living under the Mandate became Palestinians.

Israel as a modern nation-state was born in that specific period. May 14, 1948. It was a Friday and Ben Gurion declared as Prime Minister, that all nations and religions will be respected. That did not happened, and Israel has been the target of attacks by Nasser and his fedayeen.

The area that is now called Gaza is called in the Tanach ( or Canon) Aza. That is where the story of Samson took place. Notice also that the fabric we called Gauze comes from the word Gaza apparently it was a textile perfected there. Like Damascus tablecloths were developed in Damascus.

Didn't Scherezada lived there in Damascus? I mention her because she was able to entertain her husband with many tales so that she doesn't get killed.
Those fables are still around !

Palastina is the name that was given by Romans to the whole area that the Jews occupied when the Jews lost their war against Rome. Jerusalem specifically was changed to Aelia Capitolina. I don't remember any book that says Al Quds- in that specific time.
Also something remarkable, There were Jews who stayed there and never knew what Diaspora was. Therefore without a doubt even though Jews lost the war, there was always a Jewish presence in the area. Moreover, there were many returns, at different stages before 1948. Mark Twain's visit attest to this. he saw people praying int he Western Wall.
The Western wall was actually called the "Wailing Wall," because Jews were always praying for their return to their ancestral land. It was not an easy quest.

Since this is a forum about the Palestinian Nation I will not go into detail of that quest but remark only that with Zionism and the birth of Israel, there was an Arab Awakening: See David Kimche A Clash of Destinies: The Arab-Jewish War and the Founding of the State of Israel.

Enter Arafat and here is when a bigger trouble starts because of improved technologies of war, and Arafat did not spare a minute to fight back. A big mistake was to let him return form Tunis. A bigger one was to arm them.
Sadly, Israel did those decisions in good faith. This reptile did not treat his own people, now for the first time called Palestinians, well. We all know that the money to help them came from the European Union and Arafat squandered it or got it into a Swiss bank. That is why Suha was hysterical in the hospital, she did not want future Palestinian leaders questioning him. It is he who is responsible for exacerbating the "No peace No war" situation, but in my mind this was a war: the Intifadas and the rest were part of the war, including the Munich Olympic athletes.
Now we have an electronic intifada and a Tsunami of misinformation to change these basic facts.

The Language is Egyptian Arabic. My daughter learned Arabic from an Israeli solider stationed in the Egyptian border. He told us that this is what Palestinians speak. No specific identifying language.

Its demise? There has never been a demise? Why? Because there has never been a nation -state. Sadly, the Arabs refused partition in 1947, November actually- and since then there is no peace and no understanding and lots of lies flying around.

Rachel :)

Posted on Mar 7, 2010 3:24:40 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Mar 7, 2010 4:00:26 PM PST
Mikeber says:
Ben, didn't first 10,000 satisfy you?
I was hoping these shameful, inane, pointless, useless, stupid posts will stop, or at least amazon will put an end to the stupid personal attacks and name calling. BTW, there are more then 10000, spread over several discussions which deteriorated to the lowest of low. From time to time, I bump into one of these "discussions" and I watch with amazement these bored posters, writing thousands of posts in hope of hurting uber bored anonymous individuals from other parts of the globe. Does that help Israel or Palestinians in any way or form???
As to your question:
Ben, you are a troll, since you (and everyone else) knows the answer to the questions. No, there had never been an independent Palestinian entity in any way or form. But for Palestinians (and their supporters) that's a non issue. They consider themselves a community that shares a common destiny and that's what unites them. They feel together not because of Ishmael or Esau 3500 years ago, but because life is unfair and they are badly beaten. BTW, every nation started at one point in history and Pals can be a nation that was born in the 20th century.
As for Jews, the fact that they follow old testament commandments is only a self justification for themselves and some of their Christian supporters. The world dosn't care much if your ancestor was the great grandson of the great priest at the temple in Jerusalem. Only you do.
However, that's hardly the point. Today, both Jews and Arabs face an existing reality. Israel is fact and its not going to vanish in space because someone says they are colonialists or imperialists or compare them to Nazis. The Pals are also not going away just because you explained that Jewish roots in Israel go back 3500 years. They don't care.
Therefore, the question is not if Palestinians were independent, but what can be done to solve this crisis now, when none of the parties is willing to give up. That's my question. Do you have a good answer?

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 7, 2010 3:40:45 PM PST
Mark bennett says:
"Since they thought their religion was best they put all the others including Christianity on Dimmitude which means a second class citizenship, tax an concentrated in its own area. This is the same system that was in place during the Ottoman Empire and the Mellahs."

The funny thing about that is that Israel adopted that same system on independence. And even more funny, its still in place. Everyone is assigned to a religion at birth. Everyone's papers identify them by religion. Laws are written based on religion.And because everyone is identified at every step of their lives by their religion, they are implicitly under Dimmitude.

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 7, 2010 3:44:17 PM PST
[Deleted by Amazon on Mar 9, 2010 12:49:07 PM PST]

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 7, 2010 3:53:25 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Mar 7, 2010 3:57:05 PM PST
Mikeber says:
Mark,
1) Ben doesn't say that Pals don't exist, but since they had never been a separate independent people with an independent state, why insist on now. Please read my other post.
2) Pals could have had an independent state, long ago, if they only had a different mind set. (That could be archived without war). Their worst enemy is not Israel, but their mentality and way of thinking.
Amazingly, their rhetoric haven't changed in ages, while the world of today is very different from the world of 1948. If you watch Israel, you will find their society had changed tremendously in last 30 years. Sadly, the only party frozen in time are Palestinians.

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 7, 2010 3:56:50 PM PST
Mark, You mention the possibility of ethnic cleaning in the West Bank and Gaza. Haven't you noticed that ehtnic cleansing has already occurred in Gaza? All of the Jews have been removed.

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 7, 2010 4:07:22 PM PST
Mark bennett says:
"probably a mix of many areas, since many came to work for the Kibbutzim and stayed. As long as there was no awakening there were jobs."

This is interesting. So rather than the Kibbutzim being a socialist experiment in self-reliance, they were more like landed estates where zionist pioneers oversaw large numbers of arabs who did the actual work of constructing and operating them which was below the dignity of the settlers. Israeli history books require a significant revision apparently.

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 7, 2010 4:11:07 PM PST
Ben Uziel says:


Since the first 10,000 posts failed to provide answers to these basic questions maybe a second go around may yield better results.

*********************
Maybe thats because most of the questions are subjective... and this is a discussion forum. You want answers, look up the data, and come to your own conclusions... the obvious bias of opinions here isnt going to help you any. The answer you seek must come from your own observations. Just kill this thread already...

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 7, 2010 4:12:28 PM PST
Mark bennett says:
"Mark, You mention the possibility of ethnic cleaning in the West Bank and Gaza. Haven't you noticed that ehtnic cleansing has already occurred in Gaza? All of the Jews have been removed."

So you are accusing the Israeli government of conducting a campaign of ethnic cleansing. And no doubt sinai was another example.

Ok. So obviously the best course of action is to prepare lists of the Israeli politicians responsible and bring them to the Hague to be tried as war criminals.

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 7, 2010 4:52:41 PM PST
anne says:
Mark wrote "And because everyone is identified at every step of their lives by their religion, they are implicitly under Dimmitude. "

anne: I've heard Israel being labeled as a democratic theocracy in a parlimentary republic.

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 7, 2010 4:55:12 PM PST
anne says:
Darrell wrote "in Gaza? All of the Jews have been removed."

anne: And here I thought Gaza had no Jews because all Gaza has is Muslims, not one Christian, Jew, or any other religion is allowed in Gaza. Unless you're IDF, that's an exception of a Jew or Christian or Druze being allowed in Gaza.

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 7, 2010 4:57:54 PM PST
anne says:
"As long as there was no awakening there were jobs."

anne: What awakening?

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 7, 2010 5:01:19 PM PST
Rachel says:
anne:

Political awakening to make a nation-state instead of just tribal units.

Read Kimche's book very useful.
Rachel

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 7, 2010 5:15:42 PM PST
anne says:
Rachel,

Previously you wrote "I am Kosher Jewish 100%"

What's it mean to be Kosher Jewish 100%?

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 7, 2010 5:24:10 PM PST
Rachel says:
ANNIE:

This Forum is about the Palestinian nation, please let us keep up with the topic. Finding what is Kosher is in the internet.

Rachel

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 7, 2010 5:51:10 PM PST
[Deleted by Amazon on Sep 14, 2011 4:49:49 PM PDT]

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 7, 2010 5:56:31 PM PST
anne says:
Rachel,

I thought you said you were an Orthodox Jew.

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 7, 2010 6:10:26 PM PST
[Deleted by Amazon on May 25, 2011 11:53:19 AM PDT]

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 7, 2010 6:16:27 PM PST
[Deleted by Amazon on Sep 14, 2011 4:49:50 PM PDT]

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 7, 2010 6:20:35 PM PST
anne says:
Dahlis wrote "I grew up on a Kibutz."

anne: Was it secular or religious?

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 7, 2010 6:22:10 PM PST
[Deleted by Amazon on May 25, 2011 11:53:20 AM PDT]

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 7, 2010 6:26:27 PM PST
Rachel says:
Dahlia:
My father was there and he told me definitely so that they were treated well and paid honest wages. They did all kind of job and sometimes hand in hand with the Kibbutzniks.

Yea, we don't win either way!
Rachel.
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