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Punishment for Apostacy: The Root of All Evil in Islam


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Showing 126-150 of 302 posts in this discussion
In reply to an earlier post on Apr 1, 2008 3:18:19 AM PDT
[Deleted by Amazon on Oct 13, 2008 10:43:45 AM PDT]

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 1, 2008 7:32:32 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Apr 1, 2008 7:42:37 AM PDT
L. Thomas Deaver,

It seems you are interested in the practical reality of where Christianity is, not what the bible actually says about Apostacy. That's fine. You feel that some verses overwrote others and that none of it should be taken literally. That's fine too. That is how I feel about the Quran, so we are in sync.

As to practical reality, I have shown elsewhere and would be happy to repeat the analysis that at this point in history that just over 10% of muslims live under some form of Shariah that allows for death for Apostacy. Of those, only a small percentage live in a country where such a law has been enforced. In those where the law is enforced only a relatively few people have actually been put to death. Overall, it is still a problem that the Islamic world, but a small one. The overall trajectory is improving as well when viewed over hundreds of years. Using it as an example of what is wrong with Islam reminds me of pro-choice people bring up rape and incest. It is far from the common case, and not something which should be presented as the defining issue to be addressed.

I appreciate a look at the practical reality Mr. Deaver.

Salam,

JAF

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 1, 2008 7:40:18 AM PDT
Drumthwacket,

I am sure you are already aware of this, but I would be careful in your association with Birutegal. He is a rabid anti-catholic. Pretty much just like the historical ones. He is unfortunately typical of the growing anti-catholicism being seen in the united states tracking inline with the growth of evangelicals. This is especially true because much of the growth is at the expense of Catholicism as with Birutegal. I have found that ex-members of a religion can be the most rabid in their opposition. I like to consider myself an exception as a regular attendee of Church. In fact, to do my part for the catholic church I will attend Catholic services for the next few months. I normally go to methodist (and of course my Mosque).

Regards,

JAF

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 1, 2008 12:15:12 PM PDT
Birutegal says:
Sorry, Drum. I don't do justice to the post by rushing. I will post more detail re "wipe out the Amalekites."

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 1, 2008 12:35:16 PM PDT
P. Elliott says:
JAF,

Those verses were referring to the Jews. How 'bout answering L. Thomas Deaver's questions? A portion from a prior post dealing with your dismissal of apostacy (added emphasis):

"Apostacy has not been dealt with. I mention it in terms of an overall penalty (jail, fines, and death) in any form and you disingenuously respond with ONLY the death aspect. The fact that were discussing it at all highlights the separation between Islam and other religions. It's an extremely critical issue that boils down to basic human and religious rights that most of the rest of the world upholds. If you're ashamed of it just say so instead of making lame excuses for it and trying to dismiss it as pale in comparison to abortion. That comparison was way out in left field and an obvious attempt to distract."

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 1, 2008 4:28:45 PM PDT
[Deleted by Amazon on Oct 13, 2008 10:43:46 AM PDT]

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 1, 2008 4:29:24 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Apr 1, 2008 4:38:18 PM PDT
JAF,

And you hit on the whole intent of my entire post. It was what I was saying. The western world and moderate muslims should eliminate those punishments in places where punishment for apostacy still lingers. Eygpt is one place that I know of for sure. That is a fairly large state. It is not alone. If you will look at the other posts, punishment for apostacy has also included prison. That is something that is hardly conducive to freedom of religion or freedom of speech. Is punishment for apostacy widespread? Yes and no. Many Islamic countries have laws in their countries like the American South had Jim Crow laws against blacks. But it is also like lynching in the American South. Not every black man was lynched, but it only took white Southerners killing a few loud and successful blacks to scare the rest of the blacks into silence. Do I have hope for Islam to shed punishment for apostacy? Yes. Is punishment for apostacy worse in some parts of the Islamic world than others? Of course. But it exists in a significant part of the Islamic world.

Punishment for apostacy is a direct attack upon freedom of religion and freedom of speech. It is a cornerstone of many problems. Why? Because if you aren't free to speak and criticize your own religion and your own religious culture then are doomed to live in a world surrounded by ignorant masses blindly following the teachings of clerics. The Protestant Reformation changed that mentality for Christianity. The Islamic world could use the same change.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 1, 2008 5:23:49 PM PDT
Birutegal says:
This is for Drum: Evangelicals have been practicing "ecumenism" with the Roman Catholic Church for a couple decades now and a lot of its "leadership" (Pat Robertson, Chuck Colson, etc.) has accepted Catholicism as a true form of Christianity.

"I am sure you are already aware of this, but I would be careful in your association with JAF. He is a rabid anti-EVANGELICAL. Pretty much just like the historical ones. He is unfortunately typical of the growing anti-evangelicalism being seen in the united states tracking inline with the growth of Muslims".

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 1, 2008 5:32:33 PM PDT
Birutegal says:
Youssif, Here's a little context for the early Old Testament:

In the OT God did not order unprovoked attacks and never told the Hebrews to force conversion:

Exodus 13:17...God led them not through the way of the land of the Philistines, although that was near: for God said, Lest peradventure the people repent {change their minds and turn} when they see war...

Ex. 16:35 ...until they came unto the borders of the land of Canaan

Ex. 17:8 Then came Amalek and fought with Israel in Rephidim.

Deut. 25:17 Remember what Amalek did unto thee by the way when ye were come forth out of Egypt, how he met thee by the way {in the wilderness} and smote the hindermost of thee, even all that were feeble behind thee, when thou wast faint and weary {slaughtered civilians}; and he {Amalek} feared not God. {The Hebrews were not even in Canaan but in the wilderness and were being attacked, picked off.}

In Leviticus 18 & 20 there are 8 passages referring to the heathen practices of these peoples, including the Egyptians: incest, offering their children (their seed) to live sacrifices by burning in the molten arms of Molech; the Hebrews are commanded by God not to walk in the manner as the nations around them re incest, sodomy, bestiality, live human sacrifice, etc.
God repeatedly stated that these nations have been defiled because of these practices and will be cast out. Look at a concordance for words such as "burn" children/your seed and pass through the "fire." God warned His chosen people that He would punish them also if they turned to these horrific practices, and at times they did and, as He warned, He punished them more severely than He did the heathen nations basically because they knew the true God and knew better than to pollute themselves, their land, and their beasts with these practices. He did all this to keep what would be the ancestors of Jesus together and alive so that the Messiah would be born through them, as He had promised. Throughout the Old and New Testaments you will note that Satan tried to destroy the Jews and Israel itself, and then Jesus, so the prophecies could not be fulfilled. (Satan is still trying to destroy the Jews and keep them out of their God-given homeland, Israel, so the rest of the prophecies cannot come true re Jesus' return at His Second Coming to rule the world in peace from Jerusalem.)

These commands were given to the children of Israel/God's chosen people, along with many civil rules and rituals that pointed to the coming Messiah.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 2, 2008 10:47:20 AM PDT
L. Thomas Deaver,

I think you and I may be in more agreement than disagreement perhaps. My concern was that uninformed readers may assume that death for apostacy was a widespread and common phenomenon. Obviously you do not. I did some research earlier and I came up with: Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Yemen, Iran, Sudan, Afghanistan, Mauritania, and Pakistan (i think) as being the only countries which have death for apostacy. I didn't see any evidence that Egypt was. In fact there were multiple high profile cases in Egypt recently where conversions from islam to christianity were granted by the courts there. If you have some evidence about Egypt I would be interested.

In any case, I don't like the other issues put in the way of converts to other religions such as jail time, reeducation, fines, etc. I believe, as a muslim, in total freedom of religion and the ability to convert at will. I consider myself a reformist muslim and work nearly every day to help bring about positive changes. There are many people like me, and I hope we are a growing force.

Salam,

JAF

In reply to an earlier post on May 16, 2008 1:15:08 PM PDT
Truthseeker says:
Everyone,

Below are a couple of direct quotes from the Koran that should clarify the situation for everyone.

"Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that you hate a thing which is good for you and it may happen that you love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, you knew not." (Koran 2:216)

"Remember Thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the believers, I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips of them." (Koran 8:12)

Hope this helps,

PS: If you wish to discuss further, join me in the fiction forum

Tom

In reply to an earlier post on May 16, 2008 2:03:54 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 16, 2008 2:08:45 PM PDT
Ishraqi says:
If some Muslims tend to be wary of the so called "fundamentalist" camp of the Evangelicals it's probably due to the high profile Evangelical preachers like Pat Robertson, Hagee, Parsley, etc.. who say that the Prophet Mohamed was taught by demon spirits and that Islam is evil, Islam must be destroyed**.. etc. I'm sure if people taught the same thing about Evangelicals you would be a little warry of them as well. People need to know however that not all Evangelicals are Islamophobes like that. There are many Evangelicals who respect Islam.

** and the prevalence of Zionist extreamism and support for interventionist foreign policy.

Oh yeah it's also probably due to Evangelical people like who go out their way to dig up all the dirt they can find on Muslims. ;) Why would a Muslim like a religion that inspired a person to say the things you do about Islam?

In reply to an earlier post on May 16, 2008 2:33:42 PM PDT
Truthseeker says:
Hikmat,
I posted direct quotes of the Koran.
Are you saying my quotes are false?
If they are true, isn't the dirt you are speaking of in the Koran itself?

Tom

In reply to an earlier post on May 16, 2008 3:00:38 PM PDT
Birutegal says:
Hik,
The descriptions of M. during his so-called revelations was even considered to be demon possessed by his peoples, in fact, the falling down, twitching, eye rolling, were attributed by doctors to be seizures. He himself thought he was possessed and wanted to commit suicide. His wife convinced him he was not possessed but hearing from angels, though accounts differ whether he was visited by angels, by the Lord of the Worlds (taken from Holy Spirit), or an angel called Gabriel. His mother was heavily involved in the occult.

In reply to an earlier post on May 16, 2008 6:13:47 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 16, 2008 6:22:55 PM PDT
Ishraqi says:
<<Are you saying my quotes are false? >>

No they are correct. What do they mean in your opinion?

I'm just surprised you don't like the parts about warfare thats all I'm saying. Isn't it a little hypocritical to post those quotes (without giving the context) to imply that Islam is overly violent** when you yourself openly call for the destruction of millions of people and even root for the nuking of Muslims. That would be like Stalin complaining that the Koran is too violent it's just not believable.

** and from the context of you post with the other ones in the thread that is the "feeling" I got from your post.

In reply to an earlier post on May 16, 2008 6:21:34 PM PDT
Ishraqi says:
<<The descriptions of M. during his so-called revelations was even considered to be demon possessed by his peoples>>

Some of the pagans tried to imply that to dissuade people from the faith of God. Didn't some of the Pharisees say Jesus (pbuh) was possessed by a demon? Do you believe them?

<<by the Lord of the Worlds (taken from Holy Spirit), or an angel called Gabriel.>>

The Angel Gabriel <Jibreel> IS the holy spirit in Islamic teaching. The holy spirit isn't the third person of a trinity in Islam.

<<His mother was heavily involved in the occult.>>

What do you mean by "occult" and can you provide a reference so I can read about this?

In reply to an earlier post on May 16, 2008 7:57:13 PM PDT
Birutegal says:
The Islamic Invasion by Robert Morey (the first book I read about Islam; then I read Koran and a few Hadith. One of the best I've read is Behind the Veil by Abd El Schafi as he outlines the interpretations of Koran by the most accepted of past and modern Islamic jurists. Trifkovic's book is a good one as I've already indicated. I've read many others and old encyclopedias. Most enlightening, however, was my long late hour conversations with many Muslims and numerous friends of theirs; we watched videos from local mosques where I learned of the BIG LIAR, the late Ahmed Didat. The practices he attributed to the Catholic church would even make an ex-Catholic angry at him (at the time he didn't know the differences between the Catholics and other denominations and lumped them all together). Hik, it came to mind today that you had asked me about my friendship with these Muslims. Out of several dozen of us, most Muslims we worked with insisted on working with me while the others got the non-Muslim foreigners. In fact, the rules of the national organization were broken for me on that account. I was receiving personal calls from Saudia asking to work with such and such a relative. Eventually, I went in business for myself with them through word of mouth.

In reply to an earlier post on May 16, 2008 8:25:04 PM PDT
Birutegal says:
Hik,
Who are you talking about? "you yourself openly call for the destruction of millions of people and even root for the nuking of Muslims."

It helps if you give the poster's name.

In reply to an earlier post on May 16, 2008 9:22:21 PM PDT
Ishraqi says:
Tom Clancy Fan. read some of his posts in the politics area.

In reply to an earlier post on May 22, 2008 6:11:31 AM PDT
[Deleted by Amazon on Jul 19, 2009 2:25:15 PM PDT]

In reply to an earlier post on May 22, 2008 6:15:01 AM PDT
[Deleted by Amazon on Jul 19, 2009 2:25:15 PM PDT]

In reply to an earlier post on May 22, 2008 9:15:22 PM PDT
"I MYSELF AM THE GREAT BEYONDANDA ..BEYOND TIME AND SPACE AND BRIEFLY MANIFEST THINGS IN THIS REALM EVERY NOW AND UH THEN:)"

Maybe I'm tired, but ?????????????????????????

In reply to an earlier post on May 22, 2008 11:59:34 PM PDT
byzantinist says:
L.F. Shermans's claim that "when the West had its Reformation it did not have outside occupation, and attacks to deal with and its rulers were not kept in place withthe support of ...Muslims..." is completely false. In the sixteenth century, during the Reformation period, Europe was under FEROCIOUS attack by the Muslim Ottoman Empire, on several fronts (the southeast and Mediterranean) and the Ottomans occupied a large chunk of central and southeastern Europe. Vienna was besieged by Muslims in 1529 and 1532, shortly after Martin Luther broke with the Roman Catholic Church. Anyone who has ever read any of the writings of Luther, Charles V or other prominent figures involved in the Reformation/Counterreformation knows that these figures all were acutely aware of the serious threat that the Ottomans posed at that time to the survival of what was then called Christendom, (but which modern people now call "the West.") And yes, some Reormation-era Western rulers were supported by the Ottomans militarily against other Western rulers--(the Ottomans knew how to "divide and conquer" like all imperialists)--for example, the Ottomans supported French kings and Transylvanian rulers against the Habsburgs. Yet the West still had a Reformation. L.F. Sherman is simply making excuses for those contemporary Muslim countries that do not comply with current international law stipulating freedom of religion as a human right. Moreover, other contemporary non-Western societies that have been occupied/under attack/colonized at various times in their history, whether by the West, or by Islamic empires, or both (such as India, Latin America, non-Muslim black Africa and the Balkans), do not make apostasy illegal. The Muslim world is the only large region today that maintains such outdated laws.

In reply to an earlier post on May 23, 2008 8:29:56 AM PDT
The subject is apostasy in Islam! But so far none of the instigators have come up with any evidence of anyone having been executed as a result of apostasy! It should be clarified that the law of apostasy is on the books for those people who profess to be Muslims; later claim to have abandoned it; only to come back to it and thereafter again renounce it. These individual and repeated acts of acceptances and denials will only help in creating chaos in an orderly community or society.
For your information, by default, Islam is the most secular faith! For it welcomes exchanges of information which can help in the learning and educating process.It encourages diverse societies composed of various faiths! Lumping or accusing Islam for violence is an ages old tradition, spread mostly by the Christian dominated education process in the Western Society. The Vatican has accepted this fact and it should help all those who are concerned or are misinformed on such issues. If one chooses to ignore the facts; one is only denying the truth; therefore refusing the Knowledge. Islam has never been forced upon anyone; it is purely voluntary and demands a personal discipline. The true definition of Islam is " ACCEPTANCE OF A VIEW OR A CONDITION WHICH WAS NOT ACCEPTED PREVIOUSLY!" and it's main definition is DEEN: which translates: "THE ABSOLUTE AND THE CORRECT WAY OF EXISTANCE IN THIS UNIVERSE; WHICH IS IN COMPLETE SUBMISSION TO ALLAH'S DEMANDS!" Every human has the option to accept it or deny it; even those who were born in the Muslim families.
It is appropriate at this stage of the discussions that the following documents be examined and taken into considerations before these postings turn ugly! Accusations and counter-accusations have never produced any worthwhile result!
The Document being referred to is: "Orientations pour un dialogue entre chretiens et musulmans" = "Orientations for a Dialogue between Christians and Muslims". This 150-pages document was issued by the Office of Non-Christian Affairs at The Vatican in 1965. (Wikipedia Website). Some highlights are: "Adopt a new position towards Islam and critical examinations of our prejudices"; "We should first set about progressively changing the way we see it! This is most important of all"; "We must clear away the `out-dated' image inherited from the past, or distorted by prejudice and slander"; "Recognize the past injustice towards the Muslims for which the West, with its Christian education is to blame"; "It would seem pointless to maintain that Allah is no really God, as do certain people in the West! The conciliar documents have put the above assertion in its proper place. There is no better way of illustrating Islamic faith in God than by quoting the following extracts from LUMEN GENTIUM: "The Muslims profess the faith of Abraham and worship with us the sole merciful God, who is the future judge of men on the Day of Reckonings. Allah is the only word that Arabic-speaking Christians have for God"; "Islamic Fatalism is a widely-spread prejudice; this document examines this and quoting thee Quran for support, it puts in opposition to this notion of the responsibility man has; who is to be judged by his actions. It shows that the concept of an Islamic legalism is false; on the contrary, it opposes the sincerity of faith to this by quoting two phrases in the Quran that are highly misunderstood in the West:
1: "There is no compulsion in religion (sura 2; verse 256)" and 2: "God has not laid upon you in religion any hardship (sura 22, verse 78)"; "Islam is not a religion of fear but it is a religion of love - love of one's neighbor based on faith in God. It refutes the falsely spread notion that Muslim morality hardly exists and the other notion, shared by so many Jews and Christians, of Islamic fanaticism. It makes the following comment on this: In fact Islam, was hardly anymore fanatical during its history than the sacred bastions of Christianity whenever the Christian faith took on, as it were a political value. At this point, the authors quote expressions from the Quran that show how, in the West, the expression Holy War has been mistranslated; in Arabic it is Aljihad fi sabil Allah, the effort on God's road"= "the effort to spread Islam and defend it against its aggressors"; "The jihad is not all the Biblical Kherem; it does not lead to extermination, but to the spreading of God's and man's rights to the new lands' the past violence of jihad generally followed the rules of law; at the time of Crusades moreover, it was not always the Muslims that perpetrated the worst slaughters"; "Islam is hide-bound religion which keeps its followers in a kind of superannuated Middle Ages, making them unfit to adapt to the technical conquests of the modern age. It compares analogous situation observed in the Christian countries and states the following: "We find, in the traditional expansion of Muslim thought, a principle of possible evolution in civilian society"
The Second Vatican Council issued the following declaration:
"The church has also a high regard for the Muslims. They worship God, who is one, living and subsistent, merciful and almighty, the Creator of heaven and earth, who has also spoken to humanity. They endeavor to submit themselves without reserve to the hidden decrees of God, just as Abraham submitted himself to God's plan, to whose faith Muslims eagerly link their own. Although not acknowledging him as God, they venerate Jesus as a prophet; his virgin Mother they also honor, and even at times devoutly invoke. Further, they await the Day of Judgment and the reward of God following the resurrection of the dead. For this reason; they highly esteem an upright life and worship God, especially by way of prayer, alms-deeds and fasting. (Nostra Aetate, October 28th 1965)
On May 5th 1999, Pope John Paul II, declared during a general audience: "We Christians joyfully recognize the religious values we have in common with Islam. Today I would like to repeat what I said to young Muslims some years ago in Casablanca: "We believe in the same God, The One God, The Living God, The God who created the World and brings its creatures to their perfection." (Insegnamenti, VIII/2, 1985)
LET US ALL REVERT TO THE REAL LIFE AND ITS PROBLEMS INSTEAD OF THROWING ANY DIRTY GARBAGE AT EACH OTHER. Regards to all. Iftikhar.

In reply to an earlier post on May 23, 2008 10:10:42 AM PDT
Birutegal says:
AIS, GAG!!! If Muslims have an Abrahamic religion, which they don't, they would accept the Old Testament as it is, not pervert/distort it. Christians have accepted the Old Testament as Judaism has it. The Holy Bible is revelation from the beginning of time to the end of time; no new revelation will be given and, as prophesied, all so-called post Biblical revelations are not from God.
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Discussion in:  Islam forum
Participants:  38
Total posts:  302
Initial post:  Mar 7, 2007
Latest post:  Apr 19, 2012

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