Customer Discussions > Islam forum

Islam Is Reforming !


Sort: Oldest first | Newest first
Showing 1-25 of 1000 posts in this discussion
Initial post: Mar 11, 2010 4:30:39 PM PST
Domenico says:
http://www.reformislam.org/

OUR MANIFESTO

--------Acknowledging mistakes-------------
The majority of the terrorist acts of the last three decades, including the 9/11 attacks, were perpetrated by Islamic fundamentalists in the name of Islam. We, as Muslims, find it abhorrent that Islam is used to murder millions of innocent people, Muslims and non-Muslims alike.

-------------Inconsistencies in the Koran-------------------
Unfortunately, Islamic religious texts, including the Koran and the Hadith contain many passages, which call for Islamic domination and incite violence against non-Muslims. It is time to change that. Muslim fundamentalists believe that the Koran is the literal word of Allah. But could Allah, the most Merciful, the most Compassionate, command mass slaughter of people whose only fault is being non-Muslim?

----------The Koran & the Bible--------------------
Many Bible figures from Adam to Jesus (Isa) are considered to be prophets and are respected by Islam. Islamic scholars however believe that both the Old and the New Testament came from God, but that they were corrupted by the Jews and Christians over time. Could it be possible that the Koran itself was corrupted by Muslims over the last thirteen centuries?

-----------------The need for reform -----------
Islam, in its present form, is not compatible with principles of freedom and democracy. Twenty-first century Muslims have two options: we can continue the barbaric policies of the seventh century perpetuated by Hassan al-Banna, Abdullah Azzam, Yassir Arafat, Ruhollah Khomeini, Osama bin Laden, Muslim Brotherhood, al-Qaeda, Hizballah, Hamas, Hizb-ut-Tahrir, etc., leading to a global war between Dar al-Islam (Islamic World) and Dar al-Harb (non-Islamic World), or we can reform Islam to keep our rich cultural heritage and to cleanse our religion from the reviled relics of the past. We, as Muslims who desire to live in harmony with people of other religions, agnostics, and atheists choose the latter option. We can no longer allow Islamic extremists to use our religion as a weapon. We must protect future generations of Muslims from being brainwashed by the Islamic radicals. If we do not stop the spread of Islamic fundamentalism, our children will become homicidal zombies.

------------------Accepting responsibilities------------------
To start the healing process, we must acknowledge evils done by Muslims in the name of Islam and accept responsibility for those evils. We must remove evil passages from Islamic religious texts, so that future generations of Muslims will not be confused by conflicting messages. Our religious message should be loud and clear: Islam is peace; Islam is love; Islam is light. War, murder, violence, divisiveness & discrimination are not Islamic values.

------------Religious privacy-------------------------
Religion is the private matter of every individual. Any person should be able to freely practice any religion as long as the practice does not interfere with the local laws, and no person must be forced to practice any religion. Just as people are created equal, there is no one religion that is superior to another. Any set of beliefs that is spread by force is fundamentally immoral; it is no longer a religion, but a political ideology.

---------------Equality----------------------
Islam is one of the many of the world's religions. There will be no Peace and Harmony in the World if Muslims and non-Muslims do not have equal rights. Islamic supremacy doctrine is just as repulsive as Aryan supremacy doctrine. History clearly shows what happens to the society whose members consider themselves above other peoples. All moderate Muslims must repudiate the mere notion of Islamic supremacy.

--------------Sharia---------------------------
Sharia Law must be abolished, because it is incompatible with norms of modern society.

---------------Outdated practices------------------------
Any practices that might have been acceptable in the Seventh Century; i.e., stoning, cutting off body parts, marrying and/or having sex with children or animals, must be condemned by every Muslim.

------------------Outdated verses---------------------
The following verses promote divisiveness and religious hatred, bigotry and discrimination. They must be either removed from the Koran or declared outdated and invalid, and marked as such.

--------------Outdated words & phrases---------------
Use of the following words and phrases or their variations must be prohibited during religious services:
* Infidel / Unbeliever: these terms have negative connotation and promote divisiveness and animosity; Islam is not the only religion
* Jihad: this word is often interpreted as Holy War against non-Muslims
* Mujaheed / Holy Warrior: no more wars in the name of Islam
* American (Christian / Crusader / Israeli / Zionist) occupation: these terms promote bigotry; at this point in time, Muslims living in non-Muslim lands have more freedoms than Muslims living in Muslim lands

----------Islam vs. violence--------------------
Islam has no place for violence. Any person calling for an act of violence in the name of Islam must be promptly excommunicated. Any grievances must be addressed by lawful authorities. It is the religious and civic duty of every Muslim to unconditionally condemn any act of terrorism perpetrated in the name of Islam. Any Muslim group that has ties to terrorism in any way, shape, or form, must be universally condemned by both religious and secular Muslims.

----------------Portrayal of Prophets--------------------
While portrayal of Prophets is not an acceptable practice in Islam could be personally offensive to some Muslims, other religions do not have such restrictions. Therefore, the portrayal of the Prophets must be treated as a manifestation of free expression.

-------------The Crusades vs. The Inquisition-----------------------
While the Inquisition was a repulsive practice by Christian Fundamentalists, the Crusades were not unprovoked acts of aggression, but rather attempts to recapture formerly Christian lands controlled by Muslims.

----------------Brothers and Sisters!--------------------------------
Do not make the next generation of Muslims clean up your mess!
Fight Islamic Fascism now, so your children won't have to!

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 11, 2010 5:00:20 PM PST
anne says:
Domenico,

Nice work!

Posted on Mar 12, 2010 10:24:00 AM PST
[Deleted by the author on May 25, 2010 9:19:16 PM PDT]

Posted on Mar 12, 2010 10:52:34 AM PST
No much evidence of Islam reforming here.

Posted on Mar 12, 2010 2:20:07 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Mar 12, 2010 2:21:03 PM PST
anne says:
Domenico,

What happened to your post?

Would you try again? And if it disappears again, maybe split it up?

Posted on Mar 12, 2010 5:43:16 PM PST
Domenico says:
Well, Anne,

Looks like one of our posters here did not like the....

MANIFESTO

of those Muslims ditching the very crap in Islam.
A complain to Amazon...could be our dear World Citizen now calling himself Dennis ???? You know the game.

Anyhow... Please visit the real site here:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.reformislam.org

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 12, 2010 6:21:07 PM PST
anne says:
Domenico,

Regarding "deleted by Amazon posts", it has generated a bit of conversation in other Communities. The consensus is that Amazon deletes posts without reason or notification. I've seen it done several times in the last few days. Some of us have learned that posting whatever it was a second time results in success.

Won't you try again?

Posted on Mar 12, 2010 8:35:03 PM PST
Domenico says:
------------------Acknowledging mistakes
The majority of the terrorist acts of the last three decades, including the 9/11 attacks, were perpetrated by Islamic fundamentalists in the name of Islam. We, as Muslims, find it abhorrent that Islam is used to murder millions of innocent people, Muslims and non-Muslims alike.

-------------------Inconsistencies in the Koran
Unfortunately, Islamic religious texts, including the Koran and the Hadith contain many passages, which call for Islamic domination and incite violence against non-Muslims. It is time to change that. Muslim fundamentalists believe that the Koran is the literal word of Allah. But could Allah, the most Merciful, the most Compassionate, command mass slaughter of people whose only fault is being non-Muslim?

--------------The Koran & the Bible
Many Bible figures from Adam to Jesus (Isa) are considered to be prophets and are respected by Islam. Islamic scholars however believe that both the Old and the New Testament came from God, but that they were corrupted by the Jews and Christians over time. Could it be possible that the Koran itself was corrupted by Muslims over the last thirteen centuries?

-----------------The need for reform
Islam, in its present form, is not compatible with principles of freedom and democracy. Twenty-first century Muslims have two options: we can continue the barbaric policies of the seventh century perpetuated by Hassan al-Banna, Abdullah Azzam, Yassir Arafat, Ruhollah Khomeini, Osama bin Laden, Muslim Brotherhood, al-Qaeda, Hizballah, Hamas, Hizb-ut-Tahrir, etc., leading to a global war between Dar al-Islam (Islamic World) and Dar al-Harb (non-Islamic World), or we can reform Islam to keep our rich cultural heritage and to cleanse our religion from the reviled relics of the past. We, as Muslims who desire to live in harmony with people of other religions, agnostics, and atheists choose the latter option. We can no longer allow Islamic extremists to use our religion as a weapon. We must protect future generations of Muslims from being brainwashed by the Islamic radicals. If we do not stop the spread of Islamic fundamentalism, our children will become homicidal zombies.

--------------------Accepting responsibilities
To start the healing process, we must acknowledge evils done by Muslims in the name of Islam and accept responsibility for those evils. We must remove evil passages from Islamic religious texts, so that future generations of Muslims will not be confused by conflicting messages. Our religious message should be loud and clear: Islam is peace; Islam is love; Islam is light. War, murder, violence, divisiveness & discrimination are not Islamic values.

------------------Religious privacy
Religion is the private matter of every individual. Any person should be able to freely practice any religion as long as the practice does not interfere with the local laws, and no person must be forced to practice any religion. Just as people are created equal, there is no one religion that is superior to another. Any set of beliefs that is spread by force is fundamentally immoral; it is no longer a religion, but a political ideology.

------------------Equality
Islam is one of the many of the world's religions. There will be no Peace and Harmony in the World if Muslims and non-Muslims do not have equal rights. Islamic supremacy doctrine is just as repulsive as Aryan supremacy doctrine. History clearly shows what happens to the society whose members consider themselves above other peoples. All moderate Muslims must repudiate the mere notion of Islamic supremacy.

----------------Sharia
Sharia Law must be abolished, because it is incompatible with norms of modern society.

-------------Outdated practices
Any practices that might have been acceptable in the Seventh Century; i.e., stoning, cutting off body parts, marrying and/or having sex with children or animals, must be condemned by every Muslim.

-------------Outdated verses
The following verses promote divisiveness and religious hatred, bigotry and discrimination. They must be either removed from the Koran or declared outdated and invalid, and marked as such.

-------------------Outdated words & phrases
Use of the following words and phrases or their variations must be prohibited during religious services:
* Infidel / Unbeliever: these terms have negative connotation and promote divisiveness and animosity; Islam is not the only religion
* Jihad: this word is often interpreted as Holy War against non-Muslims
* Mujaheed / Holy Warrior: no more wars in the name of Islam
* American (Christian / Crusader / Israeli / Zionist) occupation: these terms promote bigotry; at this point in time, Muslims living in non-Muslim lands have more freedoms than Muslims living in Muslim lands

----------------Islam vs. violence
Islam has no place for violence. Any person calling for an act of violence in the name of Islam must be promptly excommunicated. Any grievances must be addressed by lawful authorities. It is the religious and civic duty of every Muslim to unconditionally condemn any act of terrorism perpetrated in the name of Islam. Any Muslim group that has ties to terrorism in any way, shape, or form, must be universally condemned by both religious and secular Muslims.

--------------------Portrayal of Prophets
While portrayal of Prophets is not an acceptable practice in Islam could be personally offensive to some Muslims, other religions do not have such restrictions. Therefore, the portrayal of the Prophets must be treated as a manifestation of free expression.

-------------The Crusades vs. The Inquisition
While the Inquisition was a repulsive practice by Christian Fundamentalists, the Crusades were not unprovoked acts of aggression, but rather attempts to recapture formerly Christian lands controlled by Muslims.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And a lot more on their site....

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 12, 2010 8:56:30 PM PST
anne says:
Domenico,

All riiiight !!

Posted on Mar 13, 2010 5:46:55 AM PST
TN says:
it's a good thing they acknowledge problems associated or originated from Islam. But to reform Islam is idiotic and vain. Why not getting rid of the Quran from the earth? And depict the mad man for what he was?

Posted on Mar 13, 2010 3:08:22 PM PST
Domenico says:
Well, some people think the reformation will happen. The citizens of Islamic countries, Muslim majority, suffer.
A few very, very good points follow:

http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/AlanCaruba50414.htm

Can Islam Reform Itself?
By Alan Caurba

"The most pressing challenge that the Arabs have yet to confront is the reform of Islam. If the Arab world can't or won't accept the concept of the secular state as being consistent with Islam, then neither high-speed economic growth, nor liberal democracy have much chance in the Middle East." So says Steven Schlossstein in his book, "Endangered Species: Why Muslim Economies Fail." ($24.95, Stratford Books)
............................................................................
Those who still argue against the US use of force after 9-11 to impose democracy in Afghanistan and Iraq totally ignore the most astonishing facts about the Middle East. Every single nation in that region has suffered from the kind of oppression we have come to associate with Islamic governments as well as those in so-called "secular" Arab nations such as the former regime of Saddam Hussein or the current one in Syria. All have experienced a lack of economic growth that, combined with growing populations, results in massive domestic discontent.

Al Qaeda and other Jihadist organizations have tapped into that discontent to introduce the world to young men and women who are so desperate, so lacking in any hope, that they have transformed themselves into human bombs in order to advance the domination of Islam throughout the world.

I suggest that what we are seeing is not a religion that is growing due to its theological message, but one that is in the throes of a slow death, sacrificing its children in a vain effort to survive. You never hear of the Muslims that have become apostates to Islam because, in the Middle East, that comes with the penalty of death. Outside the region, many former Muslims have fled this cult built around the worship of Mohammed's life and the strictures of the Koran and Sharia law.

The Middle East must be rescued from the stagnation that is the direct result of Islam's control over the lives and the economies of its twenty-two nations. "Last year," writes Schlossstein of 2003, "nearly two-thirds of global foreign direct investment was in East Asia, but only three percent in the Middle East, which bought fifty percent of all arms and weapons sold in the world." Again, the sword.

"The Islamic model," says Schlossstein, "is an intellectual bust, a lethal combination of Holy Law, repressive government, tragic overpopulation, and anesthetizing unemployment, from Iran to Morocco."

The contrast between the economic model of the Far East in which nations like Japan, South Korea, and Taiwan, lifted themselves up from the ashes of World War II (with the help of the US) and transformed themselves into one of the most powerful economic region in the world stands in stark contrast to the abject failure of the Middle East.

While the Far East concentrated on building their economies from the ground up, instituting rigorous educational systems, the nations of the Middle East have remained mired in self-pity, seeing themselves as the humiliated victims of the outcome of World War I that ended the control of the Ottoman Empire. The region was carved up into new "nations" to be controlled by Great Britain and France by means of the infamous Sykes-Picot Agreement.

Something is very wrong when a tiny nation like Belgium, with a population of about ten million people, publishes more books every year than all twenty-two nations of the Arab world combined, which has more than 200 million people. Barely 300 books a year are translated into Arabic, only a fifth as many translated by Greece for its citizens. Illiteracy is endemic throughout the Middle East.

Then, too, is the failure to utilize the talents of half the population of the Middle East, its women.

"The result of this leaves the combined GDP of all twenty-two nations of the Arab Middle East, totalling about $530 billion, at less than the gross domestic product of Spain alone." Only Turkey whose leader, Ataturk, turned that Persian nation's gaze to the West, has escaped this fate. Its secularism, a break from Islamic control, was and continues to be backed up by an educated military elite.

The US is in the Middle East to insure the flow of oil to ourselves and Western allies, but it is there also because, unless the continuing problems of the region are solved by introducing democracy and by reversing the impact of Islam on the region, there will be no end to the terrorism it will export, threatening the economic engines of the West and Far East.

The good news, of course, is that many Middle Eastern nations are feeling the demand of their people to democratize. They can and they will. One can only hope it will lead to an Islamic Reformation.

Posted on Mar 13, 2010 3:54:25 PM PST
Domenico says:
The story of Shoaib Choudhury (Wow!)

http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/10/can_islam_reform_from_within.html

On October 27, 2009, the well-known Muslim peace activist from Bangladesh, Shoaib Choudhury, arrived in New York City to give talks on the problem of jihad at several prestigious institutions in the area. Shoaib, as he likes to be called, has gained the respect of much of the world, especially among Jews, for his heroic efforts to stop the Muslim persecution of Jews and other religious minorities in Muslim countries. For this he was accused of sedition, imprisoned, and tortured, and his life has been threatened several times since. He still is at risk of being hanged by the state for his supposed crimes.

Relaxing on a rainy evening after a long flight from his native Bangladesh, Shoaib met with several counter-jihad activists in midtown Manhattan. The plan was to see how mutual support and alliances could be developed.

However, that plan was aborted by the truculent attitude of some of the activists.

They tore into Shoaib as a supporter of Islamic intolerance regarding other religions, as a wife-abuser who forces his spouse to veil herself, and even as a liar. None of this was grounded in reality, but the "activists" deemed Shoaib untrustworthy. Why? Because he would not join them in publicly bashing Mohammed and the text of the Qu'ran.

No, Shoaib has chosen not to do that.
Instead, he spends his time and uses his journalistic skills to dig out buried information about al Qaeda's infiltration of his country's government and schools. He publishes his findings in his online journal and in his publishing house. One new piece of information, for example, is the discovery of wide-spread sexual abuse of children in the madrassas, resulting in an epidemic of venereal diseases among these unfortunate children.

Shoaib's goal is to expose evil to the light of day so that public outcry can bring about needed reforms. He attacks the broad central branches of self-serving and sadistic Islamic practices rather than taking an axe to what the American counter-jihadists consider to be the main problem: the trunk of the tree, or Islam itself.

Why does Shoaib do this?

He reasons that if he were to criticize Islam per se, he would lose all credibility in the Muslim world. He would be seen as an outsider, an apostate, somebody to be automatically despised -- and his voice would be lost. Since he is a native of his country and has taken life-threatening risks in it, why should he change his strategy to reflect the approach of his armchair counter-jihadist critics?
.............
There actually ARE people within that broad range who are as aware of the evils of Islam as we are. At great risk to their personal safety, and sometimes losing their lives because of their efforts, they denounce the built in hatred for non-Muslims, the very idea of jihad and forced conversions, the oppression of women, and more.

Think about it. If you happened to be born into the Muslim world, would you accept it or would you seek ways to make it more humane? If you would chose the latter course, then you can recognize that there are rebels of various kinds within the Muslim world.

Mr. Choudhury, for one, has been writing for years about these horrors in his newspaper, http://www.weeklyblitz.net/ and has recently published a book called Inside Madrassa which exposes the numerous abuses inflicted on children in these jihad funded institutions. The price he has had to pay, broken bones, imprisonment, near blindness, constant death threats, intimidation of his family - all that is well documented. To overlook the efforts of persecuted reformers like him seems to me extremely short sighted. If he and other Muslim reformers chose to work within the Muslim world, and to continue to call themselves Muslim for a variety of reasons, including strategic ones, that must be taken into account.

Strategically speaking, what is the advantage of Americans who know the intrinsic problems of Islam (as I do, and as I have written about in other places (http://www.actnycoalition.org/WHAT%20YOU%20NEED%20TO%20KNOW%20ABOUT%20ISLAMIC%20JIHAD.pdf) who simply rage against Islam to each other?

The choir has been preached to. The job now, as I see it, is to spread that information to the naive AND also to support the efforts of genuine freedom fighters within the Muslim world. Just who is a genuine freedom fighter is another story and does deserve careful and skeptical thinking.

However, to dismiss out of hand the idea that there can be freedom fighters within the Muslim world is anti-empirical and a strategic dead end. If all of the 1.5 billion Muslims are assumed to be killers in waiting, then it would make sense to nuke them all. Do you think that will happen? Would you want it to?

Posted on Mar 13, 2010 4:22:07 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Mar 13, 2010 5:00:37 PM PST
Domenico says:
Comments Comments Comments Comments Comments Comments Comments 93 of them

""Reform Islam? Who's kidding who?
Islam is just another degree of insanity, a madness that will go away only when it exists no more. The islamic world is hurling toward an abyss of self destruction...and they love it. Sick eh? ""

''''If it is indeed occurring, then reform from within Islam is good news. However, renouncing violent jihad is only a start. Islam is not only a religion, but a comprehensive political and cultural system that governs every aspect of life, right down to the individual identities of believers. It is expansionist, and is pushing outward not only by violent means, but by the "non-violent" silent jihad, of...

1. Silent infiltration and creeping takeover of western institutions such as banks, universities, non-profits; usually by means of influence buying (sovereign wealth funds), leveredging political correctness codes and anti-discrimination laws, etc. CAIR is the prime example in the USA, but it has many counterparts.

2. Immigration into non-Islamic nations

3. Demographics - In many European cities, Mohammed is the most popular boys name.

4. Refusal to assimilate into the culture of the host nation

5. Already Islamic nations, such as Saudi Arabia, prohibit possessing a Bible or Torah, even by a foreigner, and similarly prohibit temples of other faiths.

6. Exploitation of religious tolerance in western society; for fear of being labled as "Islamophobic" (a neologism), mosques have been given wide lattitude to conduct their affairs free from supervision and oversight. This is especially true in the U.K., where they are centers of Muslim fomment, but it is also true of some in the USA.

One can easily see that under this scheme, Dar al-Islam (home of the believers) is protected, while Dar al-Harb (everyone else) is invaded.

The other problem with moderates within Islam staying silent is that it strengthens the position of hard-liners in the non-Islamic world, and thereby weakens their cause. By staying silent, it gives the appearance to the outside world that moderates are intimidated into silence, and lack the backbone'''''

"islam reform from within"??? many thanks for the best laugh i've had in weeks.

in 1400 years of islamic "civilization", there's been exactly *1* reform of any importance that actually worked. it happened in turkey, in the 1920's. when kemal ataturk decided, in typical middle-eastern/islamic fashion, to become the big man/dictator-for-life for his country, he determined to bring turkey into the modern world. he realized that to do so, he'd need to *reform* islam as it was practiced in turkey. this is how he did it: he asked around, and took careful notes as to who were the most revered and influential imams in the land. the most pure. the most learned in the ways of the koran. the most willing to defend the faith against the infidel and his unislamic ways.

then he had them all hung.

then he had all the guys who *replaced* the the guys he'd had hung.....hanged.

lather, rinse, repeat. eventually, they gave up, and "islam in turkey" was "reformed". worked GREAT for 70 years or so - turkey was easily the most free and prosperous nation in the middle east, even without lots of oil. but alas, they've stopped that admirable and effective practice - so expect turkey to swirl down the toilet soon and start causing lots of trouble like all good islamic nations do'''''

''''' Let's see if I've got this straight:
· A devout Muslim believes that the Koran is the actual word of Allah, who personally inspired his prophet Muhammed to convey his message to mankind.
· The Koran, being thus the direct command of Allah, must be accepted and obeyed by all who submit to the will of Allah - Muslims.
· Muslims regard the life and example of Muhammed as the ultimate paradigm of righteous behavior - if Muhammed did it, it must be right - it cannot be wrong.
· The Koran explicitly commands jihad, as the means of spreading Islam to the world.
· Muhammed led his followers in jihad, virtually from the beginning of Islam.
(This was the means by which Islam conquered the world from India to the west coast of Africa, within 100 years of Muhammed's death.)
· The Koran explicitly commands persecution of Jews and other religious minorities in Muslim countries.
· Muhammed slaughtered the Jewish tribes of Medina, beheading those who surrendered to him, and cast their wives and children into slavery.
· The Koran explicitly commands the subjugation of women, and their treatment as chattel.
· Muhammed had numerous wives and concubines, including a child aged 9, the widow of a Jew he had just murdered, and the wife of his adopted son.
If a Muslim submits to the commands of Allah, and follows the perfect example of Muhammed, how then can he NOT endorse and employ violent jihad, persecute Jews, and subjugate women?

This is the paradox that "moderate" Muslims must explain, and that "counter-jihadists" must confront, and so far have not clarified.'''''

'''''when that sect endangers American culture or American lives, Is it not our right to remove it from within our borders, if possible?
Islam is a cult of personality, and like the one we have in Washington, they always end in misery and destruction. '''''

''''Go to the core. Read about Mohammad, his life and teachings.
You will be amazed and stunned. All the evil, intolerance and cruelty displayed by Muslims can be found fully expressed in Mohammad's teachings and example. If Attila the Hun founded a religion it would be very similar to Islam.''''''

''''' Islam is as false as a three dollar bill. It is plain to see to those that hath understanding..... There is nothing there but hate, lies, deception, rape, murder and subjugation. It is not of God or Christlike.

"For by their fruits you shall know them" --Jesus of Nazareth.

I live my life always remembering those words when I am confronted in my life with persons whether in business or otherwise. I trust not what they say, but what they have done (Their fruits) and how they behave.

Sorry to say Islam is false, Unfortunately, I have family members that have fallen prey to this 'cult'. Its not pretty to watch, they suddenly become anti American. I tell them to go and leave the country then, go to the middle east and stop enjoying the freedoms of America.

Of course they won't leave...'''' [[[[ Yep ! We have Mominator here... and a couple of others quite anti-American !]

Posted on Mar 14, 2010 6:13:10 AM PDT
@Domenico

My heartfelt thanks to you for publishing this "reformislam"-site here!

I looked at it immediately and have sent it already to many friends and relatives - out of joy that there ARE muslims in the world who do not choose to deny reality.

Yes, they have to be "as clever as the serpents" to avoid that the best among them are silenced at once and forever.

And nobody would have anything against peaceful Muslims who just take their faith as a private thing, pray five times a day and go to the Mosque on Fridays, and don't eat pork. All problems would disappear at once if they accepted human rights (WITHOUT cutting them back for sharia law as they do today).

Perhaps you have also seen this poll at this "reformislam"-site: It is but 7% of the muslims who acknowledge the need for reformation. A sadly small number - but it is a start! (Yes, it is statistically relevant, because there were more than 1400 muslim votes.)

Thank you again.

Posted on Mar 14, 2010 6:16:09 AM PDT
@anne

" In reply to an earlier post on Mar. 12, 2010 8:56 PM PST
anne says:
Domenico,

All riiiight !! "

What the heck are you trying to tell us?

Are you angry or overjoyed (like me) about what these brave muslims have published on their web-site www.reformislam.org?

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 15, 2010 8:52:32 PM PDT
anne says:
S. G. Heintz,

I was happy Domenico posted again.

If you go to the top, you'll see Amazon deleted his post. I read it before Amazon had deleted it, left the forum, when I came back it was gone. So you can see I asked him to try posting it again. He did, so I said "yay!"

Posted on Mar 27, 2010 1:58:15 PM PDT
Domenico says:
M Zuhdi Jasser, M.D. on Muslim Ideology (reformed)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQv6imziNts&feature=related

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 27, 2010 6:11:41 PM PDT
anne says:
Domenico,

Thought you might like to see what another poster had to say:

"Sheik Palazzi makes the case that Islam today has been hijacked by the most intolerant and extremist versions of it, under the influence of the Saudis on the one side, and the Iranians on the other."-Tzur

Posted on Apr 27, 2010 1:23:15 PM PDT
Domenico says:
RB, a Canadian Muslim, graciously reminded me to stop our discussion being innapropiate in a space reserved for a book review.

The discussion

http://www.amazon.com/review/R2G2EO3OT1TC22/ref=cm_cd_pg_pg2?ie=UTF8&cdForum=FxASDRRKVU1VVX&cdPage=2&asin=0980994802&store=books&cdThread=Tx3FZBNMI56ZPGH#wasThisHelpful

will hopefully continue here.

Some of RB's points of view:

-- Mohammed's teachings can be confusing and hence the many interpretations exist as different experts try and provide guidance.
--You refer to the Hadith as the record of the Propthet's (peace be upon him) conduct and behaviour. The Hadith were passed on verbally from the prophet's companions and down through the generations. They were never recorded until many generations later. And as fallible as humans are and were over the centuries, the Hadith were then changed over the generations to suit the purpose of the time, a time of great warfare on all sides - Christian, Jew and Muslim
---You only need to look at the Fatimid Period to see what the true intent of Islam was and is. This was a time of pluralism and true inclusion of all faiths. People were looked up to and held offices not based on religion, but based on meritocracy.
--You say I deny terrorist acts of the Prophet, yet Islam's texts confirm them. Whose Islam? Certainly not mine
--If you want to understand Islam and the prophet and want to seek the truth, go speak to your friendly neighborhood muslim, make him a friend and ask him what he believes in.
--You brought up a very important point of Islam as an ideology. Islam is a religion that strives to bring a person closer to god (the same as any other religion). Islam is used as an ideology (sometimes to the point of perversion) when it is used by the political factions and that is the main source of hatred.

People need to learn to separate Islam the religion from Islam being used for political gains. The thing that the west seems not to be able to understand is that religion is so tied to daily life of people in the middle east (lack of secularism) that religion is often used to rally people around a cause as that is the main lever. Unfortunate, but true. So what can people in the west do? Reduce the leverage that these people have by not listening to the extremists. When you stop listening to the etremists that are in the minority, they loose the only source of real power they have, your hatred towards Islam. They cannot use that any longer to influence and shape perception of the west. The more hatred that you have towards the religion, the more that hatred gets baked into the Ideological response.

--RB: The Quaran was written a very long time ago and hence the essence of the Quaran needs to be interpreted for present times. During when the Quaran was written and the geography in which in was written, the language was required. I can point to similar language in many other religious texts that are not Islamic in nature. What were the crusades all about??

--RB:Not at all ashamed to the true Hadiths I read and the words of respected scholars

''''Why pay different, higher taxes, the Jizya???'''

RB: Again, these are region specific attitudes and attributed to Islam as a whole. There is no general tax that muslims enforce on non-muslims, otherwise I would be a very rich man today.

--You didn't know they are not allowed to build new places of worship ? And that if one such building is being built is only possible because the country is or wants to be secular ?

RB: Again, based on societal or regional attitudes and not linked to religion. [in regards to abuse against non-muslims, not
being allowed to build churches, etc]
---RB: Not true at all. All beings are equal [in islam]

--
The laws themselves are detrimental to women. Who cares if a man "should" treat his wife nicely??
If he doesn't.... she must accept her faith. He can divorce her by uttering talaq 3 times.

RB: Tell me again how this works? Would like to check with the divorce lawyers I know so they can start specializing in other fields.

And if he wants her back she must have sex with another husband, one that agrees to divorce her afterwords... God said so ! You accept this too?

RB: Are you for real? I am not even going to attempt to answer the proposterous question above. Again, the level of your ignorance becomes more and more clear.

--As I have said before, since the Quaran was written a long time ago, we require a guide to interpret the faith. We recognize times change and we all advance as human beings.

RB: I completely realize what I am saying. The Quaran is a guide that can be interpretated for modern times without loosing the basic message. Happens all the time wth all religions and not just Islam. Why do you think we have sects in all religions??? This is not just a facet of the Islamic faith. All faiths go through change over time.

--RB: This is the mainstream Islam my friend. You just choose not to charecterize it as such. I am glad you agree with me. Hopefully this discourse serves as a starting point where you recognize that Islam and muslims are not bad and we are all looking for the same thing. To be one with the creator. Of course Atheists might object to this as well, hence the saying, "you can't win them all". I am at peace with our faith. It has made me the person I am today, and yes I use the prophet as a guide to how I live my life.

You seem to weed out a lot of stuff by considering it "lies" or absolete material .

RB: That is because it is and confuses the essence of the faith

--RB: That guide would be an Imam or scholar. The unfortunate part is there isn't a guide like a restaurant guide that says who is a good guide and who isn't. However, if you know a muslim and you admire them, then just ask them and use your judgement.

In reply to an earlier post on May 19, 2010 9:22:53 PM PDT
Interesting that there are more anti-Muslims on these fora then Muslims.
Actually for a long time (until this morning actually) I thought it was impossible for Islam to reform.
But then I had an idea that were Islam is now Judaism was 2000 years ago. This is just a theory invented by me, this morning on the bus.
Look up: the Sicarii and the Zealouts The Sicarii in Josephus's Judean War: Rhetorical Analysis and Historical Observations (Early Judaism and Its Literature) look up the Sicarii on Wikipedia for example and Jesus the Terrorist and Revolution in Judaea: Jesus and the Jewish Resistance
and The House of Hillel vs the House of Shammai Jesus the Pharisee: A New Look at the Jewishness of Jesus and Pharisees vs Sadducees Jesus the Pharisee.
If Judaism reformed then so can Islam.
But since this is an Islam forum I will refrain from making a nuisance of myself but hope you enjoy the books.

In reply to an earlier post on May 20, 2010 5:45:46 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 20, 2010 6:22:12 AM PDT
T. Behrend says:
Hello Do. This isn't a beginning, unless you are unfamiliar with Muslim political and ideological debates of the last century and a half, or even the last week and a half. If that is the case, one can only presume that you post this because it furthers your preconceived and concretised personal and religious convictions. You really have no reason to continue to confirm either the narrowness of your "database" of knowledge about Muslim societies or the degree of your Christian love for your Muslim neighbours.

In reply to an earlier post on May 20, 2010 5:46:42 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 20, 2010 6:23:06 AM PDT
T. Behrend says:
A book burning is it, TN, that you are calling for here? Exquisite.

In reply to an earlier post on May 20, 2010 5:58:58 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 20, 2010 6:24:08 AM PDT
T. Behrend says:
[Customers don't think this post adds to the discussion. Show post anyway. Show all unhelpful posts.]

In reply to an earlier post on May 20, 2010 6:16:26 AM PDT
T. Behrend says:
Domenico: "There actually ARE people within that broad range who are as aware of the evils of Islam [sic] as we [sic] are."

Yes. Many hundreds of millions. Big majorities. But you always ignore them unless you can use them to feed the beasts of fear and ignorance that you promulgate among your own people. In your ignorance you say, "why don't Muslims say such and such?". Well, "they" do it every hour of the day. When it serves your corrupt purposes you condemn Muslims for never saying anything; when you come across a common critique that suits your purposes of tarring yet a bit more the object of your misguided fear and hatred, up comes the post. You are polluting this forum and making it useless by what can only be bilious hatred or bald-faced distortion. I suspect the former, but wouldn't bet a nickel on it.

In reply to an earlier post on May 20, 2010 6:20:27 AM PDT
T. Behrend says:
Posted by the group of manipulators using the name "anne": "Sheik Palazzi makes the case that Islam today has been hijacked by the most intolerant and extremist versions of it, under the influence of the Saudis on the one side, and the Iranians on the other."-Tzur

"Islam" has in no way been hijacked -- only its representation in the Western media and public consciousness. And you guys help contribute to this hijacking. Pirates and deceptors.
‹ Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ... 53 Next ›
[Add comment]
Add your own message to the discussion
To insert a product link use the format: [[ASIN:ASIN product-title]] (What's this?)
Prompts for sign-in
 


 

This discussion

Discussion in:  Islam forum
Participants:  42
Total posts:  1324
Initial post:  Mar 11, 2010
Latest post:  Jul 31, 2014

New! Receive e-mail when new posts are made.
Tracked by 5 customers

Search Customer Discussions