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Customer Discussions > Islam forum

Muslim Women - Why Are They Silent ?


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Showing 1-25 of 571 posts in this discussion
Initial post: May 1, 2010 2:56:54 PM PDT
Domenico says:
Again and again we are being reassured that Muslim women are not complaining about the treatment they receive under Islam.

Actually Islam "liberated" them in so many ways that their lives are even bettter than Non-Muslim women! Or so they say...

Even some Gallup polls seem to agree - Muslim women complain about the bad economy and high unemployment in their respective countries and don't mention abuses when asked what bothers them.

http://www.gallup.com/consulting/worldpoll/26410/Gallup-Center-Muslim-Studies.aspx

On the other hand those of us who lived in Muslims majorities at one point in time tell disturbing stories which do not match the descriptions given by many Muslim women.

Why the discrepancy?

Posted on May 2, 2010 7:15:41 AM PDT
Domenico says:
Egypt's sexual harassment 'cancer'

by: : Magdi Abdelhadi

Sexual harassment of women in Egypt is on the increase and observing Islamic dress code is no deterrent, according to a survey published this week.
The Egyptian Centre for Women's Rights (ECWR) describes the problem as a social cancer and calls on the government to introduce legislation to curb it.
The findings contradict the widely held belief in Egypt that unveiled women are more likely to suffer harassment than veiled ones.

SEXUAL HARASSMENT IN EGYPTExperienced by 98% of foreign women visitorsExperienced by 83% of Egyptian women62% of Egyptian men admitted harassing women53% of Egyptian men blame women for 'bringing it on'Source: Egyptian Centre for Women's Rights

Participants in the survey were shown pictures of women wearing different kinds of dress - from the mini skirt to the niqab (full face veil) and asked which were more likely to be harassed. More than 60% - including female respondents - suggested the scantily clad woman was most at risk. But in reality the study concluded the majority of the victims of harassment were modestly dressed women wearing Islamic headscarves.
ECWR head Nihad Abu El-Qoumsan said that even veiled women who were victims of harassment blamed themselves.
Western women who took part in the study demonstrated a strong belief in their entitlement to personal safety and freedom of movement, she says, but this was totally absent among Egyptian respondents.
No-one spoke about freedom of choice, freedom of movement or the right to legal protection. No-one showed any awareness that the harasser was a criminal, regardless of what clothes the victim was wearing.
Shocking attitude
The centre is campaigning for a new law that clearly defines sexual harassment as a crime and makes it easier for women to report it in Egypt - women like Noha Ostath.

The young film-maker told the BBC she was repeatedly groped in broad daylight by a van driver in a Cairo traffic jam as she walked on the pavement. His behaviour made her so angry she ran after the van and held on to the side mirror to force the driver to stop so she could take him to a police station.
She was equally shocked by the attitude of other passers-by. Some tried to dissuade her from going to the police - others blamed her for what she was wearing (a baggy sports outfit).
In the end, Ms Ostath phoned her father who came and escorted the driver to a police station. But even there, police officers refused to open an investigation and urged her to forget the matter.
Impudent allegation
After Noha's story was published in the Badeel daily, editor-in-chief Muhammad El Sayyed Said wrote that the behaviour of the crowd was characteristic of oppressed societies, where the majority identified with the oppressor.
He blamed the increase in sexual harassment on what he said were "three decades of incitement against women" from the pulpits of some of Egypt's mosques.
"This verbal incitement is based on the extremely sordid and impudent allegation that our women are not modestly dressed. This was, and still is, a flagrant lie, used to justify violence against women in the name of religion."
The British foreign office says Egypt is one of the countries with the highest number of cases reported to embassy staff regarding sexual offences against visiting women.
It warns them to be extra cautious in public places especially when alone because of the risks.
Ms Abou El-Qoumsan says Egyptians need to re-evaluate their value system and school curricula and to ensure that the rule of law prevails and prevents offenders and criminals walking free because of a breakdown of basic notions of right and wrong.
Thanks to surveys like this, one encounters an endless number of newspaper articles reflecting the feeling that Egypt is in the grip of a moral crisis.
Perhaps nothing illustrates Egypt's loss of a moral compass than the responses of some men in the ECWR study.
Some said they harassed a woman simply because they were bored. One who abused a woman wearing the niqab said she must be beautiful, or hiding something.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/world/middle_east/7514567.stm

Posted on May 2, 2010 7:56:18 AM PDT
Domenico says:
www.ahl-alquran.com/English/document.php?page_id=458

Let's look again at the following statement:

'''''Participants in the survey were shown pictures of women wearing different kinds of dress - from the mini skirt to the niqab (full face veil) and asked which were more likely to be harassed. More than 60% - including female respondents - suggested the scantily clad woman was most at risk.

But in reality the study concluded the majority of the victims of harassment were modestly dressed women wearing Islamic headscarves.

ECWR head Nihad Abu El-Qoumsan said that even veiled women who were victims of harassment blamed themselves.
Western women who took part in the study demonstrated a strong belief in their entitlement to personal safety and freedom of movement, she says, but this was totally absent among Egyptian respondents.
No-one spoke about freedom of choice, freedom of movement or the right to legal protection. No-one showed any awareness that the harasser was a criminal, regardless of what clothes the victim was wearing.

Shocking attitude '''''

Why shocking ? Given the circumstances of their upbringing why is the outcome shocking ? Of course women don't like to be groped... but when and why would be what they want important?

When I read the Quran and Hadith I see the teachings almost in exclusivity directed towards the men with absolutely no concern about the women's feelings. In short they think it's normal for men to act like sexual predators. Men feel entitled to be sexual predators - Allah gave them urges therefore it's only normal to act on them. Forget the lowering of the gaze...
If women are invisible... men will calm down on their own (imams say... but they don't tell about the rampant homosexual behavior)

Posted on May 2, 2010 8:45:13 AM PDT
[Deleted by Amazon on Sep 7, 2011 11:13:00 AM PDT]

In reply to an earlier post on May 2, 2010 9:17:49 AM PDT
Islam gives women rights religions like Christianity and Judaism could never conceive (following their own scriptures as they are written). Perhaps you should look at the bigger picture that Islam is not the problem, but Arab countries ruled under the tyranny of dictators and dynasties. Countries overwhelmed by ancient traditions that override religion itself. You want to point the finger at Islam which is extremely silly..there is no perfect human being in the world and by far no perfect Muslim. Every so-called Islamic country has mixed Islam with its own beliefs, whether they agree with Islam or not...its a twisting of a faith to meet the needs of the culture. But, back to the issue u brought up (bad economy and high unemployment rates)...there is no country in the middle east that is following Islamic standards to the most just degree. Examples of Saudi Arabia (a kingdom, not a democracy--and yes, democracy is a right in Islam), Egypt (dictatorship), and the corruption continues in countless other countries.
Islam is liberation, for all mankind whether male or female. Cannot blame Islam for the mistakes of some Muslims...I do not blame all of Christianity for the mistakes of a few cruel Christians either (and there have been many).

In reply to an earlier post on May 2, 2010 9:28:03 AM PDT
I've lived in Cairo, Egypt for over 2 years. The diversity of the city is great-- all kinds of dressed people from ultra conservative to ultra liberal. Aside from Islamic standards, Egyptian culture is somehow critical of a girl wearing a mini skirt and tank top. Some Egyptian men also believe that when women dress in certain ways(especially foreign tourists) they are asking to be harassed. At the same time, Egypt's latest generation of young adults are going through a critical transformation...they are becoming more Westernized (dress included). The majority of girls that wear hijab there, do not wear it for religious reasons but for fashion...they wear it short (so breasts are clearly seen), wear skin tight shirts, and tight pants...its a huge fad. So, they are dressing quite liberally, and the more extreme they go, the more they get treated 'differently' and their culture changes.
Sorry, but modesty is apart of the Arab pride/honor system. When your daughter is dressing like a whore (in Arab standards), they will treat you like you want sex. Its apart of the culture, and i think it would be best for anyone visiting such countries, to dress modestly so they do not have to get pinched. Modestly? Simply long pants, and a modest top, you'll be fine. I did not see anyone getting harassed unless they were wearing shorts or a mini or a bikini.

In reply to an earlier post on May 2, 2010 9:30:49 AM PDT
I don't know who are the Arabs that you know, but every one that I've met (whether Muslim or Christian..yes there are arab christians!) have been extremely kind and generous. Their honor/pride system has its pros and cons (like any culture), but i see that they treat each other and strangers very well.

Posted on May 2, 2010 11:06:35 AM PDT
According to statistics, anywhere between 40-70% of women and 10-20% of men have experienced sexual harassment in the workplace.

http://www.sexualharassmentlawfirms.com/Sexual-Harassment-statistics.cfm

A survey conducted by the AAUW (2002) on 2064 students in 8th through 11th grade:

83% of girls have been sexually harassed

79% of boys have been sexually harassed

38% of the students were harassed by teachers or school employees

36% of school employees or teachers were harassed by students

42% of school employees or teachers had been harassed by each other

In their recent study (2006) on sexual harassment at colleges and universities, the AAUW reported:

62% and of female college students and 61% of male college students report having been
sexually harassed at their university.

66% of college students know someone who was harassed.

80% of reported sexual harassment is peer-to-peer

51% of male college students admit to sexually harassing someone in college, with 22%
admitting to harassing someone often or occasionally.

31% of female college students admit to harassing someone in college.

http://www.sexualharassmentsupport.org/SHEd.html

I'm sure 100% of these incidents were committed by Muslim males, and 0% were committed by non-Muslim males (secular or religious):

Christian school principal/coach arrested for sexual assault

The Sherwood, Arkansas high school principal and basketball coach at Abundant Life school has been arrested for sexual assault.

A high school principal and basketball coach in Sherwood has been arrested for first-degree sexual assault.

Sherwood police say 39-year-old Abundant Life School principal and coach Timothy Ballard was arrested Friday and released Sunday on $50,000 bond. He's due in court Monday for arraignment.

It was not known if he had yet hired an attorney.

Police would not say whether the alleged victim is a student.

http://pietyinc.com/?p=2299

A former pastor in Floyd County is arrested and charged with assault in what detectives call one of the worse cases of domestic violence they have seen.

37 year old Alonzo Bradley is accused of torturing his wife for years.

Wednesday afternoon Bradley's case was waived to a grand jury.

Police and domestic violence shelter directors say this case is an example of domestic violence increasing in the big sandy region.

In the past four years, domestic violence cases nearly doubled in this area.

37 year old Alonzo Bradley was arrested wearing a "Be Like Jesus" t-shirt.

Police say he used to be the pastor at the Freedom Pentecostal Church on Conley Fork in Floyd County; but detectives say behind closed doors he tortured his wife for a decade.

"It's just a horrendous case. It's one of the worst assaults we've seen on a woman in a long time. Sadistic type injuries to this woman of beating with implements and using instruments to actually burn her with and so forth, so it's just a terrible situation," trooper Mike Goble said.

The woman is now in a safe place.

Bradley's attorney did not want to comment.

This is just one of the hundreds of domestic violence cases in the Big Sandy Region.

Statistics from the Kentucky Domestic Violence Association show the region is one of the only places in Eastern Kentucky where cases have increased every year since 2006.

The Sandy Valley Abuse Shelter went from helping 93 people in '06 to 177 in 2009.

"I think the numbers have increased, especially with the economy, you know, things have been worse and our numbers have increased," Elizabeth Fitch, Sandy Valley Abuse Center Program Coordinator.

Police say the case involving the former pastor shows alleged abuse is happening in all walks of life.

"It occurs in the richest of families to the very poorest of families," Trooper Goble said.

"It's all about power and control, it has nothing to do with your status in the community," Elizabeth Fitch said.

Bradley is being held on a 250-thousand dollar bond. Police say more charges are pending.

If you are in an abusive situation, the Sandy Valley Abuse Center is open 24 hours a day.

You can call them toll free at 1-800-649-6605

http://www.wkyt.com/wymtnews/headlines/89063582.html

Posted on May 2, 2010 11:09:02 AM PDT
We want more of the oppressed, helpless Muslim womanJuly 16th, 2008

Faith

I don't frequent forums as much I use to because I find it so much harder to deal with stupid comments. Another reason why I don't frequent forums, however, is because I often encounter people who I really think have the best intentions but who also have a hard time acknowledging the various privileges they have and questioning the biases they have. I think in order to help yourself and help others-I mean really help yourself and others, and not just give yourself a pat on the back-you have to recognize not only the oppression that occurs, but also your own relationship with the people you're working with and perhaps even your role in the oppression.

I was having a discussion with one such person. She is a white woman who is also a non-Muslim. I honestly believe that she wants to help Muslim women. However, we got into an argument over the book Infidel by Ayaan Hirsi Ali. I don't like the book for a lot of reasons, but the woman in question said that there aren't enough books like Infidel: basically, books that discuss how Muslim women have to "overcome" oppressive cultures, perhaps leave Islam or just make it so watered down as to render it completely unrecognizable, fight those oppressive Muslim brutes with beards, escapes a whole lot of death threats and more.

I disagreed with that assertion for two reasons. The first is that there are so many books, articles, and website dedicated to Muslim women or former Muslim women who have agendas that seem to work more for conservative political agendas rather than equality for Muslim women. I don't want to discount Hirsi Ali's experiences, especially in regard to FGM and forced marriage (not to be confused with arranged marriages). However, I don't think we should overlook the role of colonialism and neo-colonialism in the plight of Muslim women. Even certain practices like FGM have been aggravated by colonialism in some societies.

The second and bigger problem I have with that assertion is that it basically strips Muslim women of any control they have over the movement. Muslim women want to tell their stories in their own ways. We shouldn't be forced into telling stories ultimately serve only two purposes: making Muslims look bad and making Western societies look great, while absolving them of any role in current problems that Muslim women in various countries face. I'm not being apologetic, nor am I saying that Muslims shouldn't give themselves a cold, hard look in the mirror when looking at gender inequality. However, Muslim women's stories shouldn't be usurped to serve political and imperial purposes, nor should we be told to only tell stories where Muslim men are the boogie monsters and the West, including Western feminists, are our saviors. The oppression that Muslim men live under concerns us just as much as it does our brothers. After all, those men are our sons, our brothers, our fathers, and our husbands.

Additionally, we want to tell our stories in our own way. So yes, we will speak about "honor" killings and masajid that have poor or no accommodations for women, but we will also speak about war rapes that occur against Muslim women in Iraq, women having their privacy invaded everyday in the name of "security", Western media that portrays Muslim women, especially those in hijab and niqab as "oppressed" and "weak" and more. By fighting all of these biases and oppressions, we show that we are not helpless. We are strong and we will write our own narrative.

http://muslimahmediawatch.org/2008/07/we-want-more-of-the-oppressed-helpless-muslim-woman-2/

Posted on May 2, 2010 11:10:38 AM PDT
Milke-ing it: Another Paternalistic EditorialAugust 12th, 2009

Faith

Looking at the title of Mark Milke's editorial, "The 21st century-style subjection of women" I have to admit that the first group of people that didn't come to mind was Muslim women. Maybe it's because Muslims are usually portrayed as being stuck in the middle ages. However, my first impression was wrong and the editorial was indeed about Muslim women. I guess Muslim subjection of women is both medieval and modern.

Milke's essay is a throwback to John Stuart Mill's 1869 essay "The Subjection of Women". He tries to connect Mill's essay to the plight of Muslim women but unfortunately spits out a bunch of tired clichés about Muslim women and the "freedom" that we're denied.

I got the sense that Milke was just insistent on Muslim women being oppressed and downtrodden even when he provided examples to the contrary.

"I've taught a number of university classes and the young Muslim women do exceptionally well. I don't know if that's because they have parents who push them to succeed, or whether they appreciate Canada's opportunities. It might be both."

Muslim women can't do well because they're internally motivated to do so. We can only do well when afforded the wonderful opportunities that only exist in great countries like Canada and when we have parents looking over our shoulders making sure that we hit the books. Excuse my sarcasm, but I find it surprising that a professor like Milke didn't realize how condescending this statement was the moment he typed it. His statement is not a compliment to his students at all but once more reinforces two stereotypes: 1) Muslim women are always under the control of their families 2) Muslim women are infantile and cannot be successful unless they benefit from a benevolent Western society.

In the rest of the essay, which really was not that coherent, Milke goes on about Muslim societies being so horrible to women. Even "liberal" Muslim societies don't escape blame:

"For instance, one young Muslim woman I know came from a relatively more liberal Muslim country but still prefers to not settle back home. Male attitudes towards her gender are the reason."

This statement groups all Muslim societies in a monolith while trying not to. In Milke's mind, all Muslim societies treat women badly. Additionally, this statement, as well as the whole of Milke's essay, also assumes that Muslim women are immigrants or come from an immigrant perspective. In Milke's discussion there is no room for black, white, or Native American Canadian converts or their children.

Milke's editorial isn't all negative. He does give a shout out to Arab newspapers that print editorial cartoons decrying unequal treatment of women. But he found the cartoons on MEMRI, which makes me wonder if he actually did any real research on grassroots movements to bring about gender equality in Muslim societies. Even Milke's accolades of Arab editorial cartoonists felt more like a pat on the head than a sincere attempt at solidarity with people genuinely concerned about gender rights

I would have preferred if Milke had highlighted, in addition to the cartoons, the everyday efforts that women in all Muslim societies are making to create more equitable societies for both women and men. And this is why Milke's essay ultimately failed. His attitude towards the Muslim women and Muslim activists that he writes about is paternalistic. I felt as if he were looking down upon us, saying, "There, there. I know it's hard for you Muslim women, but once you and your men accept our enlightened Western ways, you'll be fine."

That doesn't feel like someone sincerely reaching out at all.

http://muslimahmediawatch.org/2009/08/milke-ing-it-another-paternalistic-editorial/

Posted on May 2, 2010 11:12:13 AM PDT
Judge Judy: Judy Bachrach Plays Judge, Jury, and ExecutionerAugust 10th, 2009

Lara

Some articles are fairly subtle in their Islamophobia, others less so.

Judy Bachrach's article "Twice Branded: Western Women, Muslim Lands," starts off badly and then to proceeds to elicit gasps with its sheer awfulness. It even cites Not Without My Daughter as an accurate depiction of life for most Muslim women. Yes, really. The title itself states how difficult it is to be a white woman in a Muslim (read: non-white) place. Grab an onion, folks, it's time to cry for the poor white women!

Before we get to that part, Bachrach makes it clear that we must also pity the Muslim women, who she only reads about when they are being harmed by evil Muslim men. No one cares about Muslim women like she does. Apparently Western journalists and politicians never write about them, or at least when they do, they don't write what she thinks they should.

Except for Mona Eltahawy. Bachrach quotes Eltahawy extensively, because Muslim women are such a homogeneous globule of victimhood that one journalist can speak for us all.

Apparently Eltahawy was sexually harassed while living in Egypt and Saudi Arabia, which means that her experience automatically transfers to the rest of the female population in "Muslim lands." As we know, bad things only happen to women in Muslim countries; the rest of the planet is a misogyny-free paradise.

Just in case we're not yet sure why these bad things happen, Bachrach states at length that it the fault of Muslim men, as "this is the way they prefer things to be". That's some serious finger-pointing!

However, she wishes to focus on Muslim women in "their home countries". That's not the West, by the way. Muslim women obviously aren't at home there.

She begins her focus by citing an Egyptian survey stating that 62% of Egyptian men had admitted to harassing women. However, she admits that the survey only questioned 2,000 men. As the population of Egypt is some 76.8 million (UN, 2008), this isn't quite the damning statistic she thinks it is.

Having used a person of color as a mouthpiece and quoted some spurious statistics, Bachrach now moves onto her personal experience of Egypt. She considered herself to have a "double deficit": being both female and foreign. At this point, the reader may wonder if the "branding" Bachrach speaks of is actually the marks left by the heavy straps of her invisible knapsack, but I digress.

Her harassment was a daily occurrence, made worse by the "entire city of Cairo" being avid watchers of Dallas:

When I lived in Egypt, everyone in Cairo avidly watched the television series Dallas, and as a result became expert on the sexual habits of American women. And not simply expert, but unrepentantly predatory. After all, these were women whose husbands and brothers would not reflexively massacre those who insulted them.

For it wasn't the shoulder-pad-clad bed-hopping of its cast that made American women in Cairo seem like easy targets, it was the realization that "these were women whose husbands and brothers would not reflexively massacre those who insulted them."

Reflexively massacre? This must be because Muslim men are such barbarians. Unlike civilized Western men of course, who are lovely to all women, all the time.

Back to how special and wonderful white women are. Local women in Cairo are of "neglible importance", as if they don't face any harassment at all. Whereas the exotic foreign woman lacks a "murderous uncle by her side" and is hassled from all sides.

The article then takes a brief detour through the "Married to Muslim Man Misery Memoir", just in case you haven't realized yet just how wicked Muslim men are. Bachrach uses "experts" whose reputations precede them: he chats with Phyllis Chesler, a notorious Islamophobe, about why any sane Western woman would marry a Muslim man and move to a predominantly Muslim country. Chesler's choice quote: "You will live but wish you were dead". Having spoken to Islamic scholar Hussein Rashid about Qur'anic interpretation and finding him far too positive about his religion, she then turns to that beacon of Islamic learning, Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

Bachrach goes back to playing the role of statistician, reeling off statistics about domestic violence, honor killings and force feedings. Of course none of those are issues that affect Muslims alone, but Bachrach doesn't let that hold her back.

Following this is much hand-wringing about Muslim women suffering in the West. Apparently, cultural/religious respect is nothing more than post-colonial guilt:

One of the least savory consequences of a colonial past is guilt: an insidious remorse that transmutes itself into a persistent reluctance to criticize publicly those who have now themselves taken on the role of oppressor-even against those who happen to oppress, openly and without shame, within the borders of liberal nations. "You hear people talking about the need to `respect' other cultures. You want me to respect this awful behavior?" Eltahawy says.

The sad part about this is that Judy Bachrach truly believes that she cares about Muslim women. After all, she has visited "Muslim lands" and she speaks to Muslim women.

Why then, does this article seem so laden with grotesque stereotyping? It animalizes Muslim men and infantalizes Muslim women.

This article is not about helping Muslim women, but the author claiming that she knows better, for in her privilege-blinded mind, she is better. She is not saving anyone, just asserting how superior she feels she is.

As a speaker of Arabic, I'm sure she'll understand me when I say:

La, shukran (No, thank you) .

http://muslimahmediawatch.org/2009/08/judge-judy/

In reply to an earlier post on May 2, 2010 11:25:42 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 2, 2010 8:28:19 PM PDT
TN says:
So shall we just let their traditions of honor killing , FGM, Sharia... be practiced and closed our eyes?

Oh I forgot that female suicide bombers are all Buddhists! (in Elwood's mind, of course. We know who they are)

In reply to an earlier post on May 2, 2010 11:50:06 AM PDT
Domenico says:
""" When your daughter is dressing like a whore (in Arab standards), they will treat you like you want sex. Its apart of the culture, and i think it would be best for anyone visiting such countries, to dress modestly so they do not have to get pinched. Modestly? Simply long pants, and a modest top, you'll be fine. '''''

Are you ignoring the article?

That was the main point - they are NOT fine.

Are saying "do what they ask you to do and you will be fine" ???

In reply to an earlier post on May 3, 2010 7:31:48 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 3, 2010 9:58:49 AM PDT
Domenico says:
Culture?

In those countries a woman is a whore asking for sex only because she doesn't dress in a tent.

In our culture men, who terrorize women, or harass them, or beat them... are barbarians. INFERIOUR. In our culture we are free ... and required to point the finger at those who do barbaric acts, to expose them, to criticize them. Our culture look at such individuals and such cultures with disdain.
They are hunted down, taken to court, taken to jail.
The Western societies measure such incidents in an effort to spread awareness and determine remedies.

Are there polls, concise numbers to measure the extent of this type of evil in islamic countries?

At least an available percentage for rapes? As in all rapes a family member is the main perpetretor. Are Muslim famlies ready to divulge them? A "dear" uncle will not be thrown in courts, forget the jail, for the sake of a little girl. She's lying anyhow, she asked for it anyhow, she wasn't "modest" enough. How about the importance of her testimony?

Muslims cherish the possibility to quote statistics of sexual harassement and rapes readily available in free countries. But thier miserable reasoning FAILS to produce any equivalent statistics from Islamic countries in order to balance a discussion.

You Rachel seem to be content with the situation.
Maybe you don't know the difference - JUSTICE. Western women have the law behind them. Not so in islamic countries. That's why they kill rape victims, that's why those hordes of sexually frustated males do what they do to women regardless of how they are dressed !

In reply to an earlier post on May 3, 2010 9:56:05 AM PDT
honor killing and FGM are not in Islam, Muhammad (pbuh) NEVER suggested such acts...these are cultural traditions.

In reply to an earlier post on May 3, 2010 10:01:29 AM PDT
I can't agree that in any place in the world, whether in Egypt or the US, you should EXPECT to be treated with dignity when you are dressing in an inappropriate way....lets say we are on a street in the US, 2 women walking down it past a group of men...one of the women is wearing a long pant work suit, the other is wearing a mini skirt with heels and a push up bra.......which one will the group of men goggle at? perhaps make comments at? when u dress in such ways, u cannot say u are NOT looking for that kind of attention!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And I have seen foreign tourists in Cairo actually wearing mini skirts and a tank top....ahhhh.....
point is, dressing modestly, u are asking for a certain kind of attention and dressing immodestly you are asking for another attention-- what u show is what you will receive, wherever u are on the globe.

In reply to an earlier post on May 3, 2010 10:06:06 AM PDT
Angelus1967 says:
Rachel - "Islam is liberation, for all mankind whether male or female."
Oh no, I don't think so! If one does not believe in allah then one can be marked for death. I do not want the kind of "liberation" that requires a belief in your god nor any other god, thank you very much!

In reply to an earlier post on May 3, 2010 10:08:08 AM PDT
Angelus1967 says:
Rachel - So if a woman is dressed "immodestly" by Arab standards then it is OK for a man to lay his hands on her even if she does not want it?
Wow, you are right, islam IS liberation for all. Men that is. Liberated to harass, fondle, or rape any woman who is dressed too "provocatively"...

In reply to an earlier post on May 3, 2010 10:11:35 AM PDT
Angelus1967 says:
Rachel - Muhammad (ptooey) may not have suggested those acts but killing the "infidels" was completely alright with him. All people MUST be muslim or they are infidels...great religion there.

In reply to an earlier post on May 3, 2010 10:14:49 AM PDT
Angelus1967 says:
Rachel - BS. Comments are one thing (and are offensive enough) but Arab/islamic men think it's OK to go much farther than that when a woman is dressed "immodestly", including groping and rape. God forbid a woman should wear a short skirt and tank top in Cairo...which is in the freakin' DESERT for goodness sake! I would hope my wife and daughter could dress for comfort without subjecting themselves to the nasty behaviour that many muslim men are known for.

In reply to an earlier post on May 3, 2010 10:17:32 AM PDT
I really try to avoid these discussions because i become exasperated with how brainwashed people are....U receive everything from the media with an open heart, even u have never lived in such countries, nor do u understand the mentality of such people...all it is is that the West is true and right and the Middle East is screwed up with Muslim men raping, abusing, and blowing up their women. Damn.
First of all, u should know...if someone rapes your daughter, the rapist will be lucky to escape to jail with his life, if we are in an Arab family with arab traditions (note: i say it is influenced by traditions, culture. Islam requires a full punishment of death to cases of rape, something the West does not do but allows the rapist to go free and rape again).
Second of all ISLAM DOES NOT REQUIRE MUSLIM WOMEN TO WEAR A TENT....NIQAB WAS NOT PRESCRIBED BY MUHAMMAD....A MUSLIMAH MUST COVER EVERYTHING MODESTLY EXCEPT HER HANDS AND FACE...to force a woman to wear niqab or even hijab for that matter is wrong under Islam........to allow a woman to be raped without justice is WRONG under Islam.........to allow sexual harassement is WRONG under Islam....to constantly beat and emotionally abuse your wife, daughter, etc. is WRONG under Islam........but guess what??!!! Humans have free will, and they will do what they want and even justify their actions in the name of Islam. Do not blame the religion of Islam for the Middle East's 'issues'........blame the men and women who are controlled by their traditions......
at the same time........remember, the West is responsible for the deaths of countless Muslims......without the US, Israel, so many would not have died needlessly......I think these issues should be regarded as u attempt to criticize a culture...what about ur own? the West has not shown one ounce of justice to the Middle East...The only hope Muslims have is the faith we have that all will be judged in the afterlife and justice will finally be served to non Muslims and even Muslims alike who have committed crimes against humanity. I do not pretend that all Muslims are perfect and good, cuz they are not, but neither are Westerners....the West has shown its endless hypocrisy, greed, and injustice.

In reply to an earlier post on May 3, 2010 10:21:04 AM PDT
Domenico says:
Sure you know that 97% of Egyptian women don't have proper genitals anymore. They've done it to you too? Made you a "good" wife?

In reply to an earlier post on May 3, 2010 10:29:07 AM PDT
Angelus1967 says:
Rachel - For me personally it is NOT the media, but that is a nice generalization. I spent many years working with muslim men and thier wives when I called on their businesses and have seen how both sides treat each other. So I don't take the media at face value, nor do I take you at face value.
"ISLAM DOES NOT REQUIRE MUSLIM WOMEN TO WEAR A TENT....NIQAB WAS NOT PRESCRIBED BY MUHAMMAD....A MUSLIMAH MUST COVER EVERYTHING MODESTLY EXCEPT HER HANDS AND FACE...to force a woman to wear niqab or even hijab for that matter is wrong under Islam........to allow a woman to be raped without justice is WRONG under Islam.........to allow sexual harassement is WRONG under Islam....to constantly beat and emotionally abuse your wife, daughter, etc. is WRONG under Islam........but guess what??!!! Humans have free will, and they will do what they want and even justify their actions in the name of Islam. Do not blame the religion of Islam for the Middle East's 'issues'........blame the men and women who are controlled by their traditions......"
This is actually amusing because, though true, only the rape part is SOMETIMES enforced in modern islam. Women ARE required to "wear a tent" in most islamic countries these days, dirls are NOT allowed an education or to drive alone (or at all in the case of SA), women are beaten without recourse, and rapists routinely go unpunished while the woman may even be killed for "adultry".
The way your religion was written and the way it's practiced are world's apart and even in the case of Muhammad (ptooey) he was a pedophile and murderer. And yes, I have read the koran and have read about the prophet...

In reply to an earlier post on May 3, 2010 10:32:28 AM PDT
Angelus1967 says:
Rachel - Forgot.
"at the same time........remember, the West is responsible for the deaths of countless Muslims......without the US, Israel, so many would not have died needlessly......I think these issues should be regarded as u attempt to criticize a culture...what about ur own?"
We are far from perfect but before you go pointing fingers at Israel remember, they are not alone in the war. You have "good muslims" blowing themselves up in Israel along with "good muslims" firing rockets into the country. So maybe those people deserve whatever hell Israel brings down on them.
As for the U.S.? We got attacked by people of your religion so you can bet your fanny we're going to bring smoke on the terrorists and the people who help them in any way.

In reply to an earlier post on May 3, 2010 10:36:24 AM PDT
whattttttttttttttttttttt?? where in the WORLD HAVE YOU GOTTEN THIS STATISTIC?????? It is completely off......I have not met one Egyptian woman who underwent FGM.......if this statistic was true, out of all those women i met, I would have at least met one!!!!! FGM is in decline in Egypt, and yet again.....its a cultural tradition....Islam does not say to mutiliate ur genitals......
In fact, Islam is actually quite natural....the purpose is for man and wife to ENJOY SEX!!!!! Islam recommends to husbands that they do not just please themselves but attempt to please their wife during intercourse (meaning, don't have a little 3 minute session where your wife cannot even attempt to reach an orgasm).........sex is a gift from God, a blessing in which we receive children and pleasure.....
HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO REPEAT MYSELF........CULTURAL TRADITIONS DICTATE MUSLIMS MORE THAN RELIGION.......ESPECIALLY IN A COUNTRY LIKE EGYPT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! at the same time, 97%???? u have to be kidding me...........lol...........
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Discussion in:  Islam forum
Participants:  33
Total posts:  571
Initial post:  May 1, 2010
Latest post:  Feb 21, 2013

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