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Vinyl freaks! Anyone else left out there?


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In reply to an earlier post on May 28, 2012 6:31:04 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 28, 2012 6:33:40 PM PDT
Hoosier Hayseed,

Vinyl is still being released . If there were a record store in your area you would know this. Record stores still exist and yeah they mostly deal in cds and dvds but some new artists and several artists from the 60s-70s still put out their new releases on vinyl to go along with their issue on cd.. Just not anywhere in the same volume as years past.

PS: I grew up in Kokomo,Indiana. Where are you from in Hoosier land?

Posted on May 28, 2012 6:49:09 PM PDT
Evansville. But I've been to Kokomo. Back when I was in the Army, a buddy of mine, who lived on a farm, took a couple of us up there from Ft. Knox, on a long weekend, and his mother fed us that good old farm chow - a platter of eggs at breakfast, along with sausage, ham, bacon, biscuits, fried potatoes, and I don't remember what else, and you were expected to eat it - all of it.

Of course, in my case, that was no problem at all, I was very happy to oblige.

But Amazon is like the answer to all your questions and desires about music - CDs, DVDs, whatever - and I haven't actually gone out to a record store in I couldn't tell you how long.

In reply to an earlier post on May 28, 2012 7:22:37 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 28, 2012 7:23:38 PM PDT
HH,

re:Amazon

If you read the small print at the top of the album description page here on Amazon where it says "formats" you will see here too that a lot of new releases are available on vinyl. Some folks say it is coming back, I doubt that but it isn't all going away too fast either.

Posted on May 28, 2012 7:55:31 PM PDT
I balk at phrases like "how flat the sound is on CDs" and "the pure, warm sound on vinyl". To me, the only criteria is "how close is it to the way it sounded live". As I have already noted, CDs' sound quality suffers from an inadequate sampling rate that impacts high frequencies (harmonics). This has been solved by the Super Audio CD. Pity the market has spoken: "No, I don't want the best possible sound, I want to compress the life out of it so I can walk around with 1,000 MP3s on my i_Pod." Rest assured that (all else being equal, which it seldom is) a SACD sounds A LOT better than vinyl. The "warm" ("gooey"?) sound of the best vinyl version of "Kind of Blue" pales when you've heard the SACD, where it sounds like John & Miles are right there in the room with you. LPs' deficiency is in "dynamic range": the loudness in decibels between the softest volume level (limited on LPs by surface noise) and the loudest (limited on LPs by how close the grooves are to one another). Back in the day, audiophiles would invest in a "dynamic range expander" (DBX was the brand I knew of) to restore the compressed dynamic range of vinyl. So in terms of that "oomph", vinyl is actually the "flatter" sounding.

Most DVDs, by the way, use the same 44 mhz sampling rate of CDs. Surround sound makes a nice 3D sound stage; a pleasing effect, but no more accurate sonically than stereo. And the standing waves and other room acoustics issues are more difficult. I do a lot of my listening on good headphones.

Personally, I'm not all that interested in the visual aspects of music. If it's good enough, I close my eyes and focus all my concentration on the sound and let it take me away. And screw MTV!

BUT ... I do miss the LP jackets, the heft of 12" of black musical goodness, and the nostalgia of all the good times spent with my records. I don't play them anymore, but I will pull one out and fondle it once in a while. And I was somewhat appalled when my new Yamaha receiver had no low level input for a phono cartridge.

Posted on May 28, 2012 8:14:03 PM PDT
Johnny: Do you look around to see if anybody's watching when you fondle an LP? Sounds pretty erotic to me.

I can tell from all you say that you are WAY more sophisticated about all of the technical aspects of the music scene than I am.

All I do, and have ever done, is buy records, or CDs, or DVDs, and play them, and try to derive as much pleasure out of what I hear (or see) as I can.

And especially since I had a head injury, which severely limited my ability to hear at all, to say nothing of the subtle nuances of the sound that one strives for in listening to the music - I feel just tickled pink to watch Ray Charles, for example, at one of his concerts, and hear it on my theatre surround sound speakers, and I'm happy as a clam.

Posted on May 29, 2012 7:05:35 AM PDT
RCB says:
Hi Hoosier...you have not fondled until you have fondled the original Pacific Jazz cover to Art Peppers "Playboys". Just sayin ..8)

In reply to an earlier post on May 29, 2012 8:02:24 AM PDT
Robert: I haven't had that enviable experience, but I did detect a noticeable swoon last night, as I ran my fingers sensuously around the front and back cover, and even the edges, of my "Pointer Sisters - Live In Montana: 2004" DVD.

Posted on May 29, 2012 8:42:34 AM PDT
Amtak says:
Apologies for up-ending the purpose of this thread, but for those jazz aficionados unable to find the great works of the jazz and swing era (and willing to accommodate a digital facsimile), there is a middle ground. The great benefit of digital is that we can receive internet transmissions from about 16,000 stations worldwide. Most of them are junk, but I have found some 300 classical broadcasters and roughly 70 jazz broadcasters. Many emanate from public radio and from university affiliated stations. Jazz, especially "traditional" jazz, has always been popular in France, so some stations in Paris and southern France transmit jazz of U.S. origin that remains obscure here. (Also, I have found vinyl jazz recordings at FNAC in Paris and some southern cities, but they may have gone all CD by now - but worth checking.)

In Northern Virginia lives Robert Bamberger, for about 30 years a senior energy policy analyst with the Congressional Research Service (Library of Congress), but off-duty and now in retirement a true jazz musicologist. Every Saturday afternoon he loads three hours worth of vintage recordings onto a luggage cart and heads for the American University radio station WAMU (88.5 FM), where from 8 until 11 p.m. eastern time he intersperses jazz, swing, and big band recordings from the '20s through '40s with histories of the bands, their members, and the tunes played. His program is called "Hot Jazz Saturday Night", and he has been doing it since 1980. I am told that his tons of vinyl filled his house to the point of requiring an addition being built.

Listeners can pick this up on their computers. With the right equipment you can, as I do, run it through a stereo system into quality speakers and even tape it or burn CDs (I believe nearly all of it is in the public domain). Presuming that digital radio samples at the same 44 mhz rate as CDs, you don't get the full analog flavor that Rob Bamberger is hearing in the studio, but his vast knowledge and commentary more than make up for it.

The Library of Congress itself is repository of much early jazz and blues played and sung by its originators, sometimes in the LofC's own studio. Occasionally they issue CDs of music that cannot be found anywhere else.

There is a place in New York that has found previously unknown tapes and metal masters of several famous artists, some of it rather beat up. Much of it had been secretly recorded and hidden by a sound engineer in the radio station that was broadcasting bands out of NYC in the pre-WW-2 days. The electronics experts who acquired this treasure trove announced some time ago their intention to salvage what they could and make it available to the public. If I can find my reference file on that, I'll check their progress. I had links to all this in my bookmarks at one time, but a program update I accepted last year seems to have erased all my bookmarks. Bummer.

Posted on May 29, 2012 7:12:06 PM PDT
Amtak: Have you had any luck getting your record unstuck? Have you had a chance to try any of the remedies that were batted around yesterday?

I hope you were successful. Too bad it had to be on your favorite side, on top of it.

In reply to an earlier post on May 30, 2012 3:00:33 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 30, 2012 3:02:02 PM PDT
Amtak says:
To HH: Not yet; it's going to be a while. I have decided to combine my computer and audio rooms, a move my wife strongly opposes ("leave your mess where it is!"), so I will be tied up designing and building a wall-to-wall cabinet big enough to hold 1200 CDs and 1100 LPs together with lots of gorgeous sound equipment -- meanwhile all LPs are boxed and in storage. I simply put the stuck LP question out there while it occurred to me, knowing I would forget if I didn't. I'll probably start with the isopropyl alcohol which I have available, then move to the more flammable products if that fails. I'm also starting in on a sit-stand computer desk, originally destined for a black walnut top until I discovered my stock had gotten wet and split (now considering Bolivian rosewood -- I found a chunk with beautiful grain, albeit a bit dear). I'll let you know which product works best on the record when I am able to access it.

In reply to an earlier post on May 30, 2012 3:26:03 PM PDT
Amtak - Just to err on the side of caution; Robert said that the cleaning solution supplied with his cleaning machine was 95% water and 5% alcohol.

A full-strength application of alcohol might not, but then again very well might, damage the vinyl of the record, whereas I know that using lighter fluid won't hurt it, and he said he used to use full-strength paint thinner, so we know that won't hurt it, either.

Just to be safe, if it were me, I think I'd probably buy a small can of lighter fluid (pretty cheap - or at least it used to be) or you can get a fairly small can of pain thinner - also pretty cheap.

And the amount of it, in either case, wouldn't be something you'd be stuck with that you would probably never use again, in the future.

But I would be interested to find out how you came out, whenever you do get around to doing it.

I hope it works.

Posted on May 30, 2012 5:51:59 PM PDT
Amtak says:
Me too. I am a bit hesitant, but as promised I will find an expendable LP before trying it on my Lisa Rich. Plenty of those around. Our local "Friends of the Library" store, where people dump old books and recordings for "charitable" tax deductions, has beaucoup schmaltzy and scratched LPs that I can pick up for 50 cents, The trick on my Lisa Rich is that the the bond seems very firm. I'm wondering if I will be able to work the liquid between grooves and plastic sleeve. In any event, there will be a report of success or failure. By that time my tangential arm turntable will be fully operational, so we can hear any permanent damage to the grooves. I sure am curious as to how this could happen to one side of the vinyl without affecting the other.

Posted on May 30, 2012 6:12:16 PM PDT
Without wanting to beat the subject to death - just get the cloth wet with the (lighter fluid - paint thinner - whatever) and saturate the sleeve, and let it set for awhile - maybe even overnight - to give the solution a chance to permeate the sleeve, and work on loosening the bond between it and the vinyl.

I betcha it will work, but you can't be in a hurry. After all, how long has it had to bond together?

Posted on May 30, 2012 6:20:57 PM PDT
RCB says:
Take a hair drier and wave it over the plastic sleeve to warm it up. If you use an alcohol, remember that its going to flash off and dry rather quickly with or without using the hair drier. The paint thinner is a petroleum based solvent and dries rather slow so the warmth of the hair drier wont really affect the flash time that much.Keep in mind too that lighter fluid is really Naptha and its got a real fast flash off point. Its quite a bit oilier too.

Id wet the surface with Paint thinner and let it sit....dont mess with it.... Side note.... When we strip the existing finish off of a piece of wood (furniture,cabinets,etc...) we lay out the stripper real good like and leave it alone. We let the stripper do the work its ment to do. In most strippers, the manufacturer adds quite a bit of wax into their formulas. The wax floats to the surface of the stripper and its main purpose is to stop the evaporation of the chemicals in the stripper. If we lay out the stripper and keep fooling with it (brushing it around and back and forth ) we dont allow the wax to float to the surface to stop the evaporation process. Moral of the side note story.....let the chemicals do the work for you...8<)

Posted on May 30, 2012 6:23:28 PM PDT
RCB says:
Whoops....I see Hoosier posted a bit B4 I did. Its good advice and he speaks not with fork tongue.

In reply to an earlier post on May 30, 2012 6:43:14 PM PDT
Amtak says:
HH - The sleeve is plastic. Will thoss liquids saturate it?

Posted on May 30, 2012 6:54:10 PM PDT
Amtak says:
So, I give those highly flammable liquids plenty of time to settle into a petroleum product, then turn a hair drier on it? Hooeee, you guys, I can see we're going to have a hot time in the old town. First I'll get a very long electrical extension for the hair drier, say 300 feet or so, and run it down from my sixth-floor apartment out the basement and across the stone wall, and then --- POW?

Posted on May 30, 2012 7:08:17 PM PDT
RCB says:
NO NO....warm it up first to try and soften up the sleeve and then lay out the thinners.I suppose I wasn't clear. Try and get an edge of the sleeve wet....the liquid will make its way into the record grooves and get under the sleeve.

Posted on May 30, 2012 8:56:52 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 30, 2012 9:51:29 PM PDT
Make it 400 feet.

Like Robert said - just use the hair dryer to warm it up first - but it being plastic, I don't think that even fooling with a hair dryer makes much difference.

Just dampen the plastic sleeve, and the whole area that is stuck as liberally as possible, and give the solvent a chance to work down into the grooves, (at least a couple of hours, if not overnight) and it should lift right off.

Then, with a cloth wetted with the solvent, wipe the grooves thoroughly, and it should play, with NO PROBLEM.

(I hope.)

Posted on May 30, 2012 9:16:49 PM PDT
Amtak - I don't know how handy you are. From the questions you are asking, you sound like a total klutz. But in the next breath you say you're going to be building a sit/stand desk, and you talk about using different woods to build it, so it must not be a packaged pre-fab deal - and you say you're going to build wall-to-wall shelving, so you must be a pretty handy guy.

Sounds like you just need to take the record in your hand and hold it up vertically, and, with a cloth saturated with solvent, wipe it so the solvent flows down, into the grooves. All you need to go is get the solvent on the record, where it can get between the sleeve and the record surface.

It's been seized up pretty solid for, how long? So now, just a little effort with some good old cleaning agent (thinner or lighter fluid) should do the trick.

In reply to an earlier post on May 31, 2012 11:14:41 AM PDT
Amtak says:
Pfheew. What a relief. Now I can sleep at night. And I don't need to buy the extension. BTW, I've wanted to inquire, but it is a diversion from our thread -- as mentioned I am building a CD/LP cabinet, probably using some exotic woods for exposed parts, and a computer table (Bolivian rosewood), and some other furniture (cherry, walnut) up the line -- so I am wondering, Robert, how you finish your woodworking for a non-gloss patina that emphasizes the grain. I've used tubg oil and a few other dressings, but could use advice on something better. If you prefer to discuss this off-thread, my email is: amtak601@verizon.net

In reply to an earlier post on May 31, 2012 11:35:56 AM PDT
Amtak says:
Alas, I am exposed: a total klutz. Full disclosure: My May 30 was partly tongue-in-cheek put-on, mixing a bit of frivolity with trepidation. I'm eagerly anticipating being able to hear those lost tracks of Lisa Rich again.
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Posted on May 31, 2012 1:43:19 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 31, 2012 8:03:05 PM PDT
Amtak - Please forgive me if I sounded short with you.

But I have known many people in the past who sounded just like you - it was apparent, or at least it sounded as though you really were not grasping the implications that Robert and I were desperately attempting to impart to you.

Just as if someone were attempting to explain quantum theory to me, I'm sure I would look at them much like Ernest P. Worrell, and say, "Huh?"

But you sound like a really OK guy, Amtak, and I sincerely hope you can get your record unstuck.

BTW, you wondered how one side could get stuck, but the other remain unaffected: I don't know, but perhaps the side that got stuck was face down, on the bottom, and there was some dampness, or moisture, or perhaps a chemical in the underlying paper, or whatever it was resting on.

Anyway, the side that was down, with weight pressing down on it from above, could have had an effect on causing it to stick.

Posted on May 31, 2012 8:00:48 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 31, 2012 8:03:26 PM PDT
Amtak says:
Worry not, HH -- I was actually amused. I am not easily offended -- one must really work at it, and I have encountered enough of those blokes (mostly in Washington) to be able to distinguish them readily from my internet buddies.

Indeed life itself is an inexplicable comedy, and if I have my way I'll exit laughing.

As to quantum theory -- I'm OK with that, but I have yet to comprehend strings and dark matter.

Returning to the thread, I mentioned having seen a large storehouse of great vinyl jazz in the Paris FNAC, but that was on my last visit five years ago. I do not anticipate visiting Paris again (although it was great for a very long time), so I leave it to someone else to verify if it is still there. FNAC did, and presumably still does, take mail orders.

I despair for all the great jazz that has been performed on vinyl overseas and simply disappeared. Australia, where the ABC radio network engineers once loaded me with fantastic recordings because the consuming public had turned their attention completely to rock n roll. A couple were of James Morrison, who I once watched in a park performance open a theme on trumpet, then pick up each instrument in his seven-piece band, do a rif on each and return to end the piece with another wild trumpet blast. There were many good bands in the Philippines during the 70s and 80s recording vinyl as good as anything in the states. All gone. Some really fine "quiet jazz" in Norway and Sweden during the 60s, presumably recorded but no trace.

And yet I marvel at the way Peter in Cairo finds the vinyl he picks up. Some of it is still out there, somewhere.

In reply to an earlier post on May 31, 2012 8:12:25 PM PDT
What in the world did you do, (I presume in your occupation) to warrant traveling to all of these places?

I saw quite a bit of travel here in the states, back in the 60s, (enough to more or less get it out of my system) and I can confirm that it gets old after awhile.

There really is no place like home, I have discovered.
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Discussion in:  Jazz forum
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Initial post:  Aug 7, 2011
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