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Son Of What About Jazz Since '67?


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Initial post: Oct 29, 2010 1:24:32 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Oct 25, 2011 11:20:36 AM PDT
1967 was the year John Coltrane passed away and unfortunately for a lot of folks was about the time "Real Jazz" died. Are Jazz/Rock or the Hybrids that have taken place since '67 legitimate extensions of Jazz?

What are your thoughts?

Posted on Oct 29, 2010 2:38:42 PM PDT
Turns out Amazon only allows 9999 entries on their forums before it puts a cap on the proceedings. Don't know why that is. Doesn't matter. They own the Forum. Here's what I propose here:

Like good music the old thread WAJS'67? pulled in elements that created a song of it's own. A song in the form of Jazz lovers who enjoyed the internet version of like minded company and conversation about something they all treasured. Good Jazz (and while at it other stuff as well). Always returning to Jazz. Lots of folks here on the posts didn't get involved, but a fair contingency did, and there may be a sense that this should go on.

So here we are again.Testing that assertion. What About Jazz Since '67? became over time a free ranging discussion that stayed true to it's original question. That was a pivot point that viewed music that preceded, and was the weather system that created the climate for music after '67. And in turn, on the same pivot, the music that came after '67 was discussed too. Why '67? and not some other time? I contend that 1967 was Ground Zero for where music is today. Music in all of it's glory, especially Jazz and the offshoots/hybrids of Jazz that exist today. Avant Garde and Free Jazz have been discussed from the start and are welcome points here. That point nor any of this is to downplay or demean any other threads here on Amazon. AG and Free Jazz in particular can not have enough exposure from folks who are passionate about those forms. God knows they get little press any where else on the internet *. Ratchetting up an argument about this does little good. Let's see where this goes. Here's to another 9999 posts.

Then again if that's not to be the case that should be clear in due time.

*See Richard Oyama's jazz advance blog for a forum that is holding forth with a likeminded notion.

Posted on Oct 30, 2010 7:30:24 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Oct 30, 2010 7:32:56 AM PDT
Jeffery:

How appropriate that with Halloween approaching "Jazz SINCE '67" should rise from the dead (after its unceremonial execution by Amazon) and once again walk the land of the internet as "SON OF WHAT ABOUT JAZZ SINCE '67". Its a scary thought but any extended discussion of jazz will only scratch the surface as there is so much history that has led us to this point - to what we would consider contemporary jazz.

Recently I've been listening to a duo recording called "Line Up" by pianist Russ Lossing (whose talents I've been praising) and the wonderful bassist John Hebert. What they do would be called avant garde but it uses as much from classical as it does jazz - its just about all improvised. If someone is into the unique territory that a duo can explore this recording is a great musical conversation from two players who've absorbed an awful lot of music from many sources and have come up with their own unique approach.

I also caught Tom Harrell's quintet a little over a week ago at Yoshi's in San Francisco - they're a very tight group. Harrell sounded great and they performed all recent originals by him. The music was very technically demanding but it can be described as kind of a contemporary post-bop that incorporates elements of hip hop and latin and carribean.

Posted on Oct 31, 2010 12:33:42 AM PDT
Nikica Gilic says:
A good name for the thread would be "The revenge of jazz since '67!

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 31, 2010 1:12:17 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Oct 31, 2010 1:13:59 AM PDT
Thanks Nikica,

That would have been good as well.Hahahahaha!

PS : Or maybe Bride Of What About Jazz Since '67?

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 31, 2010 9:05:53 AM PDT
I just saw the old classic "Sweet Smell Of Success" (1957, with Burt Lancaster and Tony Curtis) on tv the other day. This film had a great jazz score from Chico Hamilton's group of that time, the one with Paul Horn and Fred Katz - the band even performs for extended periods on the screen in a club setting. Has anyone seen a recent film with a contemporary jazz score? I can't think of one. This approach would give a really unique sound to a film but no one seems to want to go near it - for whatever reason. Obviously, I'm not talking about smooth jazz, which I'm certain is what they use for elevator music in hell.

Posted on Oct 31, 2010 9:41:44 AM PDT
Joel

I think Hell might be Sears.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 31, 2010 10:22:33 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Oct 31, 2010 10:23:54 AM PDT
Thomas:

"I think Hell might be Sears"

Hell is any bargain basement of the soul. Years ago Alice Cooper did a recording where he was in hell and he was surrounded by disco music and the booming, velvety voice of Barry White. My vision of heaven would be a welcoming band of everyone from Armstrong to Miles to Bill Dixon - Lester Young and Coleman Hawkins to Parker and McLean to Coltrane and Albert Ayler (I'm not sure if Michael Brecker made it into that particular band or not) and everyone else, playing incredible jazz where all those different voices weave together and it all makes emotional sense.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 31, 2010 2:12:33 PM PDT
Hey Tom,

How was the tour?

Joel ,

Your question about Sweet Smell Of Success brings to mind Chico Hamilton and his influence on the whole scene as a progenitor of music that stretched the edge of the envelope. Music -wise and musician-wise as in some of the players that came thru his band. I was thinking didn't Charles Lloyd come up in Hamilton's band? Looking into it. Yeah he did. And Eric Dolphy And Jim Hall And Arnie Lawrence And Buddy ColletteAnd Gabor SzaboAnd Larry Coryell And Arthur Blythe. And Lots of others.Man! Had no idea.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chico_Hamilton

And The Dude's Still kickin' according to this. How cool is that!?

I gotta get Sweet Smell Of Success on video.

The question about a Jazz soundtrack brings to mind the Miles Davis movie that has been bandied about.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 31, 2010 3:06:00 PM PDT
The first time I ever heard Charles Lloyd was on Chico Hamilton's "A Different Journey" - this was before his stint with Cannonball and long before his own popular quartet. Hamilton also goes back to the "cool" groups with Gerry Mulligan and Chet Baker. Then he was early into what was once called "exotica" but was really kind of pan cultural influences.

Re the film bio on Miles:

I had read an interview where Don Cheadle was trying to get that made - he had the script and everything. It seems that the whole filmmaking buisness is a real crap shoot and that people can spend years on a project (decades, even) and it still can't get made. I've seen very few successful film projects dealing with a jazz musician.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 31, 2010 7:41:30 PM PDT
Joel,

I am curious. What did it cost you to see Tom Harrell at Yoshi's ?

I've heard that shows at the Vanguard and such in NY are pretty astronomical cost wise these days.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 31, 2010 8:53:28 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Oct 31, 2010 8:54:40 PM PDT
Jeffery:

THe price of the ticket was $12 but then I decided to get a reserved table and to hold the spot - they nick you for an extra $10 if you want to do that (I sat right in front of the stage). I would say thats pretty darned reasonable. If anyone comes out to the S.F. Yoshis (there's also one in Oakland) I would reccomend having dinner at the restaurant part - its Japanese food and its fantastic. A couple weeks earlier I went to see Renee Rosnes' quartet (with Steve Nelson on vibes) and I ate dinner beforehand - it was memorable. The last time I was at the Vanguard it was on a Tues or Wed night and it cost $25 to get in - I saw the Bill Charlap trio (Renee Rosnes' husband, interestingly enough). The cost may have gone up since then.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 31, 2010 11:03:45 PM PDT
That's a great deal all around, including Bill Charlap. I thought I had heard about $100 covers or some such thing at the Vanguard these days. Can't say where I heard or Thought I heard that anyway. $22 bucks for ringside at Tom Harrell is killer.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 1, 2010 10:17:57 AM PDT
Spartacus says:
10 more offspring, and you guys would have exclusive control of the forum.

Dan

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 1, 2010 10:39:46 AM PDT
Dan:

I don't see it as having control or some ego thing - its not like this is my thread and that is yours or this is Jefferey's or Stevign's- at least not in my mind. I did notice Thomas had a thread on Jackie McLean and I jumped right on it and made a post because McLean is a particular heroe of mine and I love talking about him (I thought I might see something on there from Stevign, who also is a Jackie fan). I think its worth continuing the after '67 thread as a way for people who were connecting through it to continue to do so - if people don't want to do that, then they won't and the thread will disappear - - ain't nothing wrong with that - its natural selection. As far as other threads, like the avant garde thread, I definitely think they are great and people should follow their interests and get into them. And, as I've said here, I think you know your stuff. All I ever said earlier is that I would hope that there would be a place to discuss avant garde on the After '67 thread, too - in addition to the Avant Garde thread, not instead of. I don't see why it has to be one or the other - just like if someone started a thread exclusively dealing with Fusion, I could see where a lot of people might have a lot to say about it (good and bad) but I also could see where that style of music would fit into a discussion about the changes jazz has gone through since 1967 (I think fusion, avant garde, pan-cultural, hip hop - all of that, and more, is fodder for this thread). So, I hope that you come on here when you feel the impulse - if I find something that I want to bring up outside the wide parameters of this thread, I'll definitely do so - including the avant garde thread, which I hope you continue. I would think that by now it would be clear that I wish you well and that I enjoy exchanging ideas with you.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 1, 2010 11:09:39 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Nov 1, 2010 12:07:54 PM PDT
Spartacus says:
[Customers don't think this post adds to the discussion. Show post anyway. Show all unhelpful posts.]

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 1, 2010 12:06:16 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Nov 1, 2010 12:07:20 PM PDT
Dan:

Man, what are you talking about? I made no objection to the avant garde thread at all (as evidenced by everything I wrote). If I don't want to track multple threads - thats me, that has nothing to do with whatever anyone else wants to do. And, if I decide I have more time and WANT to track other threads I definitely will. Anyone can do what they want. I feel like you're trying to split people - to break them off into warring factions: these are the good guys and these are the bad guys. I don't see it that way and I don't see you as a bad guy either. It feels like you're projecting a lot of your own inner chaos into this. Why you keep insisting that I object to the avant garde thread is a mystery to me - I don't think you're delusional. Hey, amazon cut off the original '67 thread at some number they randomly pulled out of their rears. I don't think thats natural (as in natural selection) but if people don't want to continue it in its new incarnation, they won't - if they do, they will - its that simple. I feel that by having some continuity in the thread at least its there for some people who, when they come back they'll recognize it and join back in if they want - someone like Bryce, for example, who if he feels well enough might appreciate it still being around in some form or another. As far as conflict - if that means not being able to tolerate anyone disagreeing with you, then I definitely won't restrict myself in that area - just like there have been times in the past when I disagreed with most other posters - sometimes that can be stimulating, you know. Anyway, why try to poison the well - theres enough water for everyone.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 1, 2010 12:12:47 PM PDT
For jazz fans who like baseball . . .

no one else need bother reading this.

What about those San Francisco Giants! I've been blown away with their playing during the World Series - they're now 3 and 1 against the Texas Rangers. They could clinch it tonight - if not, its back to San Francisco.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 1, 2010 12:25:12 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Nov 1, 2010 12:30:03 PM PDT
Spartacus says:
[Customers don't think this post adds to the discussion. Show post anyway. Show all unhelpful posts.]

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 1, 2010 1:15:38 PM PDT
Dan:

You're free to do what you want.

Posted on Nov 1, 2010 2:09:43 PM PDT
dolphyfan says:
The very thing that I like about online forums is the same thing that eventually drives me away from them. Diverse opinions and thoughts open my mind wider and fill it with what might have taken me longer to find on my own; these are welcome. I have followed this (original) thread with episodic interest for some while, but the sniping and pettiness, the baiting, the bickering about way off-topic digressions, and seeming need to one-up each other is not a lot of fun to wade through. Good luck to you all.

Posted on Nov 1, 2010 3:33:18 PM PDT
Jeff:

I think it was you who mentioned later on on the old thread that the date was flexible. Some say 1960, some 76' and some 1970. In any case, after 9,999 posts I have come to the conclusion that, for lack of a better term, "the new thing" did not kill earlier styles. It has just made jazz a more varied musical form. The same as bop and hard bop did earlier. There will always be revivals of other and older forms of jazz so for those who do not cotton to the new things there is no worry that the forms that we all love will continue to be around for a long time to come. There is some validity that the so-called "world-music' fusion forms don't belong in jazz but again, that is a matter of opinion.

OK Jeff you saked so here it is briefly:

As far as the "tour' went, it was a "trip" if you know what I mean. Ups and downs for everyone. Mostly health issues. What do you expect with a bunch of guys who the youngest is 63 and the oldest 85. Every morning you wake up to 'moanin'" but that was good cause you knew everyone in the band was still alive. Old age does not tippy-toe up behind you and tap you gently on the shoulder, it walks right up to you and smacks you in the face then kicks you when you're down.

Wr rehearsed for a week in Madrid and it was 95+ everyday. The hall was air-conditioned but out-side it was burning until 10 or 11 PM. We played small clubs all over Spain then went to France and Belgium for about 10 days. That got us some relief from the heat. It was not easy but it we still had a ball. The music...sometimes good and sometimes great and sometimes downright sad but all those oldtimers..well you know. Everybody covered for you if you weren't tip top. We played a mixed bag. I really need to work on my playing but since I got back I just collapsed and am finally coming around. One more week of recuperation and I'll get back on my horse.

The bone player and the pianist were American, the alto player was French and the rest of the guys were Spanish. Everybody but me and the trombone player lives in Spain and is retired or semi-retired. The piano player has an interesting story. He's 82 when he got out of the service in the 50's he opened a soul food place in France and did really well then retired to Spain. His restaurant presented jazz seven nights a week with him and his trio half the time and then a lot of other top flight ex-pats filling the weekends. Plays like those Detroit pianists.

Man, all of Europe is getting hit by these tough times but their governments support the arts, especially jazz, way more then we do here. I had a good time but I won't be doing that again soon.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 1, 2010 7:23:07 PM PDT
Tom,

Thanks so much for bringing some civility to the board here.

Love your story about the tour. Sounds like it was a hoot for you. Glad you're home safe and sound. For the most part anyway. Hahahaha! Sad but arts do get the short shrift, especially Jazz, (in the land that spawned it no less) here in the US.

Also, have been enjoying your entries on the tenor sax post and the Jackie McLean post you started. Don't know why this is, but alto saxophonists have been filling in a lot of listening time lately. Ornette,Henry Threadgill,Oliver Lake to name 3.

re: the piano player...Plays like those Detroit pianists.

Hank Jones comes to mind. What else is it about Detroit piano players that makes that a significant statement? From a stylistic and/or a player standpoint?

Posted on Nov 1, 2010 7:33:42 PM PDT
My Gosh! The Giants just won the Series! Congrats Joel. I bet Bryce Jerlow is sitting somewhere enjoying this moment too. Good On All of the Giants fans out there you long-suffering lot you.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 1, 2010 7:45:17 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Nov 1, 2010 7:46:26 PM PDT
Jeffery:

WOW!!! Yeah, its INCREDIBLE - Lincecum let his freak flag fly!!!

The Giants are world champions - the first time since 1954 and the first time in San Francisco. Murph siad its was possible, and it was.

Thomas:

Its great to hear about your tour - sounds like hard work but the kind thats the most fufilling. I was curious - what piece did you decide on for your solo feature? I remember when we were throwing around different song suggestions. Yeah, I love Jackie McLean, too - the alto player thats doing it for me right now is Loren Stillman - the guys a wonderful musician.
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