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Why Jews CAN NEVER Believe in Jesus/Yeshua

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In reply to an earlier post on May 11, 2012 12:12:16 PM PDT
Sarah says:
AJQ: As for God believing in us, God has no confidence in our flesh, except that we will do evil, and He is able to make us do good. Our flesh is enmity against God and it does rebel.

Lois: I do not understand how you can believe this, AJ. If any sentence demonstrates the difference between our beliefs in God, that would be it. God loves us unconditionally. He is always waiting and providing opportunities for turning us back to Him. All He requires is our love and our striving to love one another.

AJQ: Lois, God requires repentance and belief in the truth.

S Perhaps you are right. In which Tanakh verses does God require belief in the truth? Please post them.

In reply to an earlier post on May 11, 2012 12:13:32 PM PDT
Lois says:
Aj,

You are right. You are sharing your beliefs. Ones I cannot believe in, but that is beside the point. I should not have said what I said and I apologize. I am going to delete my post. It was written in emotion, not reason.

Obviously, if I believe God is the leader, companion, and goal of my journey, I believe that God has placed me where I am and is putting people and other information in my path to teach me as I move on my way to Him.

God is much bigger than labels and boxes and doctrine. However, there is much to learn from everyone.

We shall as always agree to disagree, but not in anger.

In reply to an earlier post on May 11, 2012 12:17:32 PM PDT
Sarah says:
S No, sadly your interpretations of the origin of the righteousness is completely irrelevant to my statement that Paui's "none good, no, not one" contradicts the passages I quoted from the Gospels, Acts, and the Tanakh.

Where the righteousness ultimately comes from is totally beside the point. You are trying again to distract from your mistakes by changing the subject. You just did that above and I refused to follow along to your new topic. Your effort to change the topic did not work above. So you thought you'd try it again? What sense does that make?

AJQ: What is the point you are trying to drive at, that the scriptures say their were righteous people? I agree with that, and have not denied that.

S Do you? Then you understand that Paul contradicts these scriptures. You agree that I am right. You should have just said so to begin with. You didn't have to keep changing the subject and looking as though you were trying distract attention from your mistakes.

AJQ: Yet failing to discuss or discern what made them righteous before God seems a bit pointless.

S No, it doesn't. One can note a contradiction - or a consistency - without writing a whole encyclopedia about every topic the contradiction or consistency brings to mind. It is possible to discuss one thing at a time. One doesn't have to continually change the topic to five different things that you happen to think of. Doing so makes you look evasive and confused.

In reply to an earlier post on May 11, 2012 12:22:57 PM PDT
Sarah says:
>S Irrelevant. My statement was about verses in Gospels, Acts, and Tanakh. Now you want to change the topic to whether any besides God can be good. Although Jesus' declaration that he is not God is interesting in its own right. But that would be a separate discussion about the nature of Jesus.

AJQ: What is so confusing to you Sarah about using all of scripture to get an understanding? Indeed it seems you wish to not understand the verses you brought up at all else you know that you need the rest of scripture to complete your understanding. Everything you keep posting as irrelevant shows why you know little as you do concerning scripture.

S I did not post the verses Paul contradicted in order to demonstrate some vast knowledge of Christian and Jewish scriptures. I'm not interested in impressing you with how much I know. In fact, I claim no such vast knowledge as you seem to think I ought to have. I don't know much at all, compared to Christian and Jewish scholars who specialize in scripture. I just keep looking things up. I suggest you do the same.

I addressed one limited issue in one limited way. I said all that needed to be said to prove my one limited point. Then I stopped writing and hit the "post" button.

I recommend you try the same process.

In reply to an earlier post on May 11, 2012 12:25:12 PM PDT
Sarah says:
Sarah (to AJQ): Many Christians call your process "cherry-picking" and rightly point out that you can get almost any result you want if you ignore everything that contradicts your opinions and quote only what seems helpful to your claim.

Well said.

AJQ: Pretty much like she just did by picking out one verse by Paul without looking at everything else he said towards the righteous. He clearly says many are made righteous.

S My purpose was only to show that this one saying contradicted much of scripture. I did not set out to critique everything he ever said, or even every relevant thing he ever said.

I addressed one limited point and then I stopped.

I recommend the same process to you.

In reply to an earlier post on May 11, 2012 12:27:06 PM PDT
Sarah says:
Lois says: AJ, No. I do not agree. I cannot agree. I do not know why or how you could ever think that. That is not the God I know and serve. You have created your own definition and personality of your god. If that is what you see in the OT and NT, you have been severely deceived.

AJQ: Lois, Im not here sharing your beliefs, Im here sharing mine. As to who is deceived, God will judge, not you. You stand on the fence, not totally accepting that Judaism is for you, nor that Christianity is for you. Obviously that puts you in a category of your own, and of course in your eyes you are right where God wants you. What about in God's eyes?

S Yes, she sure is dumb, being in a category of her own and not seeing herself through God's eyes. What a loser.

In reply to an earlier post on May 11, 2012 12:54:43 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 11, 2012 12:57:44 PM PDT
ajqueen says:
AJQ: Paul's statement is true and matches what the Psalm writer says. You seem to simply not understand that apart from God we are not profitable.

S There it is. Red Herring Number 5, not being profitable. Whatever that means.

A: It is very relevant where righteousness comes from, and how God deems one righteous.

S Origins may feel relevant to you personally, but your feelings about their importance do not make them relevant to the fact that Paul contradicts verses in the Gospels, Acts, and the Tanakh.

Apparently you cannot tell the difference between your feelings and the relevance, or lack thereof, of one statement to another. Hence your confusion.

AJQ: At some point you will stop and realize that Paul was only qouting there what is in the Psalms, and that his point was showing that all mankind had sin nature. He then goes on to show how many are made righteous. If you did not cherrypick this scripture or attributed only to Paul, you would then realize that He said quite plainly that many are made righteous.

But you wish to remain stuck on the fact that Paul qouted there are none righteous, so you can continue to remain there. Paul starts Romans 3:10 as it is written..." so clearly he is qouting something written of old in the scripture.

Ecclesiastes 7:29 goes a little further and says "Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions."

In other words we were made righteous by God, but we fell into many sins. Again Paul did not contradict those verse in the Tanach, Gospel, and Acts, he simply qouted Psalms then went on to show how God makes man righteous before Him.

In reply to an earlier post on May 11, 2012 1:03:53 PM PDT
ajqueen says:
jeffesq613 says:
The trick is to get the intellect which knows right from wrong to control the emotions, easier said than done.

AJQ: God doesnt say its our intellect that is the problem, He says its our hearts. All those evils come out of our hearts. Thats why He promises a new heart.

In reply to an earlier post on May 11, 2012 1:06:03 PM PDT
ajqueen says:
Sarah says:
AJQ: As for God believing in us, God has no confidence in our flesh, except that we will do evil, and He is able to make us do good. Our flesh is enmity against God and it does rebel.

Lois: I do not understand how you can believe this, AJ. If any sentence demonstrates the difference between our beliefs in God, that would be it. God loves us unconditionally. He is always waiting and providing opportunities for turning us back to Him. All He requires is our love and our striving to love one another.

AJQ: Lois, God requires repentance and belief in the truth.

S Perhaps you are right. In which Tanakh verses does God require belief in the truth? Please post them.

AJQ: All of them! Man does not live by bread alone but by every Word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.

In reply to an earlier post on May 11, 2012 1:07:48 PM PDT
ajqueen says:
Lois says:
Aj,

You are right. You are sharing your beliefs. Ones I cannot believe in, but that is beside the point. I should not have said what I said and I apologize. I am going to delete my post. It was written in emotion, not reason.

Obviously, if I believe God is the leader, companion, and goal of my journey, I believe that God has placed me where I am and is putting people and other information in my path to teach me as I move on my way to Him.

God is much bigger than labels and boxes and doctrine. However, there is much to learn from everyone.

We shall as always agree to disagree, but not in anger.

AJQ: Lois, Agreed!

In reply to an earlier post on May 11, 2012 1:09:54 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 11, 2012 1:58:26 PM PDT
ajqueen says:
AJQ: What is the point you are trying to drive at, that the scriptures say their were righteous people? I agree with that, and have not denied that.

S Do you? Then you understand that Paul contradicts these scriptures. You agree that I am right. You should have just said so to begin with. You didn't have to keep changing the subject and looking as though you were trying distract attention from your mistakes.

AJQ: If you were right I would agree with you but you are not right. Paul did not disagree with those scriptures, He qouted a scripture and went on to show how one is made righteous before God thereby confirming those other scriptures you posted.

In reply to an earlier post on May 11, 2012 1:24:44 PM PDT
ajqueen says:
AJQ: Yet failing to discuss or discern what made them righteous before God seems a bit pointless.

S No, it doesn't. One can note a contradiction - or a consistency - without writing a whole encyclopedia about every topic the contradiction or consistency brings to mind. It is possible to discuss one thing at a time. One doesn't have to continually change the topic to five different things that you happen to think of. Doing so makes you look evasive and confused.

AJQ: The only one between the two of us who is confused on what Paul was saying in qouting that scripture is you. Paul qouted a scripture and then went on to explain what God had done.

In reply to an earlier post on May 11, 2012 1:29:02 PM PDT
ajqueen says:
AJQ: Pretty much like she just did by picking out one verse by Paul without looking at everything else he said towards the righteous. He clearly says many are made righteous.

S My purpose was only to show that this one saying contradicted much of scripture. I did not set out to critique everything he ever said, or even every relevant thing he ever said.

I addressed one limited point and then I stopped.

I recommend the same process to you.

AJQ: Your purpose was to show how what Paul said by qouting another scripture contradicted other scriptures in the Tanach, Gospels, and Acts. Yet had you taken Pauls message in totality using other scriptures instead on one cherry picked verse that you chose, you would have came to the conclusion that Paul did indeed say there were righteous men.

In reply to an earlier post on May 11, 2012 1:31:24 PM PDT
ajqueen says:
Sarah says:
Lois says: AJ, No. I do not agree. I cannot agree. I do not know why or how you could ever think that. That is not the God I know and serve. You have created your own definition and personality of your god. If that is what you see in the OT and NT, you have been severely deceived.

AJQ: Lois, Im not here sharing your beliefs, Im here sharing mine. As to who is deceived, God will judge, not you. You stand on the fence, not totally accepting that Judaism is for you, nor that Christianity is for you. Obviously that puts you in a category of your own, and of course in your eyes you are right where God wants you. What about in God's eyes?

S Yes, she sure is dumb, being in a category of her own and not seeing herself through God's eyes. What a loser.

AJQ: no, actually Lois is pretty straight forward and honest at least with me. She's actually quite special.

In reply to an earlier post on May 11, 2012 2:09:35 PM PDT
Linda Sang says:
@Sarah:

The "billionaire televangelist" bit was a joke, and AJ understood it for what it was. He wasn't offended.

In reply to an earlier post on May 11, 2012 2:17:09 PM PDT
Sarah says:
AJQ: At some point you will stop and realize that Paul was only qouting there what is in the Psalms, and that his point was showing that all mankind had sin nature.

S Red Herring Number 6, your Christian theory of a sin nature, which is irrelevant to the issue of whether one statement contradicts a set of statements and which also, btw, contradicts Jewish scripture. The "sin nature" also seems to contradict Jesus.

Jesus and Paul. Gracious! Those two! They just couldn't agree on anything, it seems. They should have done lunch, had a talk, sorted things out, issued a joint statement. It would have been a great photo op, too. Or painted-portrait op.

A: Paul starts Romans 3:10 as it is written..." so clearly he is qouting something written of old in the scripture.

S Red Herring Number 7. His statement quotes something from "of old in the scripture." Irrelevant, because I did not say he doesn't quote any verse of scripture. I said he contradicts many of them.

So he cherry picked. That was actually a routine practice of his, quoting a fragment out of context and putting it in a new context making it seem to mean something quite opposite to what it meant in its original context. But I was not disputing Paul's - or your - cherry-picking skills, so your implication that he cherry-picked is irrelevant. I merely pointed out that one statement of his contradicts quite a few Gospel, Acts, and Tanakh verses.

I addressed one limited point and then I stopped.

I recommend the same process to you.

Or are you going drag in every paragraph of the entire NT and Jewish Bible and go through them all line by line, creating thousands of red herrings, one by one, over the next few years, a whole school of herrings, a veritable red herring university, nay, a red-herring consortium of universities, all leaping through the frothy waves and scrambling to the shore?

In reply to an earlier post on May 11, 2012 2:18:20 PM PDT
Sarah says:
AJQ: As for God believing in us, God has no confidence in our flesh, except that we will do evil, and He is able to make us do good. Our flesh is enmity against God and it does rebel.

Lois: I do not understand how you can believe this, AJ. If any sentence demonstrates the difference between our beliefs in God, that would be it. God loves us unconditionally. He is always waiting and providing opportunities for turning us back to Him. All He requires is our love and our striving to love one another.

AJQ: Lois, God requires repentance and belief in the truth.

S Perhaps you are right. In which Tanakh verses does God require belief in the truth? Please post them.

AJQ: All of them! Man does not live by bread alone but by every Word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.

S Really? What verse of the Tanakh is that? And which part of that verse requires belief in the truth?

In reply to an earlier post on May 11, 2012 2:20:59 PM PDT
Sarah says:
AJQ: What is the point you are trying to drive at, that the scriptures say their were righteous people? I agree with that, and have not denied that.

S Do you? Then you understand that Paul contradicts these scriptures. You agree that I am right. You should have just said so to begin with. You didn't have to keep changing the subject and looking as though you were trying distract attention from your mistakes.

AJQ: If you were right I would agree with you but you are not right. Paul did not disagree with those scriptures, He qouted a scripture and went on to show how one is made righteous before God thereby confirming those other scriptures you posted.

S My statement was that his statement contradict those verses. And they do. Even if he had some elaborate adjustment in mind to rearrange the meaning of the word "righteous." Even if had some scheme whereby God would make presently unrighteous people into righteous people.

In reply to an earlier post on May 11, 2012 2:31:27 PM PDT
ajqueen says:
AJQ: If you were right I would agree with you but you are not right. Paul did not disagree with those scriptures, He qouted a scripture and went on to show how one is made righteous before God thereby confirming those other scriptures you posted.

S My statement was that his statement contradict those verses. And they do. Even if he had some elaborate adjustment in mind to rearrange the meaning of the word "righteous." Even if had some scheme whereby God would make presently unrighteous people into righteous people.

AJQ: Pauls qoute from Psalms 53 does not contradict the rest of those verses. Paul simply goes on to show how God made many righteous by their faith in Him, not because they were righteous of themselves. There is none good but God. Righteousness comes from Him.

In reply to an earlier post on May 11, 2012 4:12:26 PM PDT
ajqueen says:
AJQ: Lois, God requires repentance and belief in the truth.

S Perhaps you are right. In which Tanakh verses does God require belief in the truth? Please post them.

AJQ: All of them! Man does not live by bread alone but by every Word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.

S Really? What verse of the Tanakh is that? And which part of that verse requires belief in the truth?

AJQ: Deuteronomy 8:3. Ask your Rabbi.

In reply to an earlier post on May 12, 2012 8:16:16 PM PDT
Big Shmooz says:
MRASELL says: A "dabar" word or command can come from God or from an earthly king

Me: However the word going forth referred to in Daniel refers to God. This is confirmed by Jeremiah. Hence your calculations are incorrect.

In reply to an earlier post on May 12, 2012 8:24:18 PM PDT
Big Shmooz says:
AJQ: Good Morning. As Ive explained to you many times, that although you doubt Him, nothing is too hard for God. It is God who descends through the bloodline of David to redeem mankind from sins. There is only One King who forever Reigns over all in righteousness and it is the LORD!

Me: The difference between your point of view here & mine is that yours is merely wishful thinking. The points I made are based on God's word. Yours are not. It is why I always bring proof to what I say. You are merely claiming. Not only that, you seem to think you understand the Hebrew Scriptures better than the Jews do. In this you are also wrong.

In reply to an earlier post on May 12, 2012 8:37:19 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 12, 2012 9:54:34 PM PDT
Big Shmooz says:
AJQ: God says He is not a man that He should lie. Show me the verse that says I God will never take on flesh or become a man?

Me: Let me ask you this. Do you think God will lie in the future? Show me a verse that says " I God will never lie in the future". The answer to your question is as follows. Just like God says I am not a man that I would lie is true about God never lying, so too it is true about God never being a man.

Another answer for you is that there are other places in addition to the one in the Book of Numbers that says this. 1st Samuel chapter 15 verse 29... And also, the Strength of Israel will neither lie nor repent, for He is not a man to repent."

Hoseah chapter 11 also says this... 9. I will not execute the kindling of My anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim, for I am God and not a man. In your midst is the Holy One, and I will not enter a city.

In Hoseah especially you find the idea stated which is not even connected to whether God lies or not. Yet you still find the idea clearly & explicitely stated that God is not a man. If one were to use your method of understanding the verse, then God is in fact a liar. (God forbid) This is because this verse would at the time God became a man be rendered untrue. It would do the same with the verse in Numbers you are referring to. (In addition to 1st Samuel)

If you will just stand and put aside your bias for but one moment you would realize that the moment God became a man, all 3 verses would be rendered a lie for one could no longer truthfully say "I am God and not a man".

In reply to an earlier post on May 12, 2012 8:41:13 PM PDT
Big Shmooz says:
ajqueen says:What are you talking about?

Me: I have seen & read on these very message boards where Christians have said regarding Jacob that he was not a good person till later on in his life. (which is a lie)

I have seen & read on these very message boards where Christians have said regarding Moses that he murdered a man. (which is a lie)

I have seen & read on these very message boards where Christians have said regarding King David that he committed both adultery and murder (which is a lie)

I have seen & read on these very message boards where Christians have said regarding King Solomon that he worshipped idols. (which is a lie)

In reply to an earlier post on May 12, 2012 8:50:51 PM PDT
ajqueen says:
Big Shmooz says:
AJQ: Good Morning. As Ive explained to you many times, that although you doubt Him, nothing is too hard for God. It is God who descends through the bloodline of David to redeem mankind from sins. There is only One King who forever Reigns over all in righteousness and it is the LORD!

Me: The difference between your point of view here & mine is that yours is merely wishful thinking. The points I made are based on God's word. Yours are not. It is why I always bring proof to what I say. You are merely claiming. Not only that, you seem to think you understand the Hebrew Scriptures better than the Jews do. In this you are also wrong.

AJQ: Do I wish God was King over Israel, yes! Do I know Hebrew Scriptures better than Jews do, I seriously doubt it, except perhaps Sarah, and a few others. Ok, I'll behave. Actually any scripture Ive learned Ive learned because a Jew, rather it was Moses, the prophets, or Jesus and the Apostles taught the Word of truth. You hardly hear me speak what I did not learn from reading what they have recorded. I wish I would have learned far more than I know now, of course that requires more diligence on my part. Its certainly not because God is hiding His truth, its just a matter of diligently seeking Him. Yet in all you keep saying concerning the Messiah, you fail to see that Israel did reject God and choose a King, and God has not forgotten this, and He will be King over Israel, and the rest of us as well.
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Discussion in:  Judaism forum
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Initial post:  Dec 20, 2008
Latest post:  Jun 3, 2012

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