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Abraham, Isaac, and their wives


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Posted on May 31, 2012 10:48:34 AM PDT
Ajq said > Lots of stuff...

Me:

1) Yes, we can be made perfect, but only after we're dead. Small detail to leave out, I know. And I kind of think this lines up with Judaic thought as well, though I would (really) appreciate it if someone would clarify that for me. We cannot be perfect while we are wearing flesh (ie: alive).

2) The judgement of the "sheeps and goats" is a specific judgement based on a single criteria - how people treated Jesus' brothers and sisters (ie: the Jews). As such, it is generally viewed to be a judgement of the Gentiles - either individually or as 'nations'

3) "God saw that it was GOOD". Not "Woot! God saw that it was PERFECT." Ok, the Woot! probably doesn't fit, but the text does say good, not perfect (unless my translations are all wrong and the Hebrew really does mean perfect - again, clarification from someone who can read the Hebrew would be appreciated).

4) Re: your quote of :28 above... "God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient..." Just from what I have observed from this forum - Getting up early to go to Torah readings to be sure to say the names of the sick, just to pick one example, doesn't exactly strike me as "convenient". If I went down the list of 613 commandments, I'm sure I can find more than a couple that are not "convenient" as well.

5) When you talk about Messiah "liberating creation", don't forget that first he will do so with a sword, causing rivers of blood (literally) to flow as he slaughters Israel's enemies and reclaims the Promised Land for the Children of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob [In fact, all that blood is what will re-fertilize the ground and turn the Holy Land back into a land "flowing with milk and honey]. Then he will ultimately blow this heaven and earth away and create a new creation for people to live in. (Hope nobody screws that one up).

6) Why do I feel the need to defend Christianity's teachings on a Judaic forum... (just a note for myself, really)

In reply to an earlier post on May 31, 2012 12:44:11 PM PDT
cbk says:
Walter: 1) Yes, we can be made perfect, but only after we're dead. Small detail to leave out, I know. And I kind of think this lines up with Judaic thought as well, though I would (really) appreciate it if someone would clarify that for me. We cannot be perfect while we are wearing flesh (ie: alive).

I think that people have the wrong understanding of perfection. Perfection is living up to one's potential. And since everyone is created with different potential, there cannot be one standard of perfection. Some people have very little potential, but that doesn't mean that getting there is any easier for them than someone with great potential. It's all in the struggle and effort people put in. That is what God wants - our effort. But to think that everyone is striving for the same level is wrong.

3) "God saw that it was GOOD". Not "Woot! God saw that it was PERFECT." Ok, the Woot! probably doesn't fit, but the text does say good, not perfect (unless my translations are all wrong and the Hebrew really does mean perfect - again, clarification from someone who can read the Hebrew would be appreciated).

Correct. "Good" simply means that it was in accordance with God's Will. Besides, if man were created perfect, according to Xian standards, he wouldn't have been able to sin. But again, God doesn't want perfection. He wants our hearts and our effort.

In reply to an earlier post on May 31, 2012 11:41:29 PM PDT
Moshe Sharon says:
Lock: "God saw that it was GOOD". Not "Woot! God saw that it was PERFECT." Ok, the Woot! probably doesn't fit, but the text does say good, not perfect (unless my translations are all wrong and the Hebrew really does mean perfect - again, clarification from someone who can read the Hebrew would be appreciated).

Moshe: Your translation is correct. The word "Tov" is the Hebrew word for "good." But we can assume that in the context of the Master of the Universe assessing His creation, it means perfect. If we make the mistaken assumption that by saying good G-d meant something less than perfect in describing the newly created universe and the Heavens we would have to conclude that G-d's creation could have used some improvement (G-d forbid). What basis would you have for being a self-appointed "creation critic?"

In reply to an earlier post on May 31, 2012 11:53:09 PM PDT
Moshe Sharon says:
Lock: Why do I feel the need to defend Christianity's teachings on a Judaic forum... (just a note for myself, really)

Moshe: I don't think this forum was ever intended to attack Christianity. That subject has no significance in Jewish life. However, there are many self-appointed missionaries who feel compelled to convince us that we should be worshiping a Jew who has been dead for about 2,000 years. Most Jews view that as an attack. I have always suspected that such crusaders have doubts about their Christian beliefs and desperately need us to validate them. Otherwise they wouldn't care whether Jews accepted Christianity or not.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 1, 2012 12:06:58 AM PDT
Uncle Pinky says:
What a lot of xians do not understand is that Jews put little to no credence on the xian bible.

If you cannot elucidate your points using the Jewish Bible we simply are not interested.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 1, 2012 2:27:10 AM PDT
ajqueen says:
Walter G. Lock says:
Ajq said > Lots of stuff...

Me:

1) Yes, we can be made perfect, but only after we're dead. Small detail to leave out, I know. And I kind of think this lines up with Judaic thought as well, though I would (really) appreciate it if someone would clarify that for me. We cannot be perfect while we are wearing flesh (ie: alive).

ajq: Believers will indeed be raised at the resurrection into incorruptible bodies. Mankind will overcome the world because of our faith Jesus the Word of God.

WGL: 2) The judgement of the "sheeps and goats" is a specific judgement based on a single criteria - how people treated Jesus' brothers and sisters (ie: the Jews). As such, it is generally viewed to be a judgement of the Gentiles - either individually or as 'nations'

ajq: a judgment of those Gentiles who did not accept Christ and remain after the tribulation. They will be judged whether they helped any of Christ brothers including Jews and Christians. Who is His brothers? Those that hear the word of God and keep it.

WGL: 3) "God saw that it was GOOD". Not "Woot! God saw that it was PERFECT." Ok, the Woot! probably doesn't fit, but the text does say good, not perfect (unless my translations are all wrong and the Hebrew really does mean perfect - again, clarification from someone who can read the Hebrew would be appreciated).

ajq: If God does it, it is indeed perfect, He is perfect in Righteousness. As a Christian you know this.

WGL: 4) Re: your quote of :28 above... "God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient..." Just from what I have observed from this forum - Getting up early to go to Torah readings to be sure to say the names of the sick, just to pick one example, doesn't exactly strike me as "convenient". If I went down the list of 613 commandments, I'm sure I can find more than a couple that are not "convenient" as well.

ajq: Praying for the sick is a good thing. Paul was not speaking of doing this type of good, he clearly was speaking of giving them over to their evil desires to do things which are not convenient....sin.

WGL: 5) When you talk about Messiah "liberating creation", don't forget that first he will do so with a sword, causing rivers of blood (literally) to flow as he slaughters Israel's enemies and reclaims the Promised Land for the Children of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob [In fact, all that blood is what will re-fertilize the ground and turn the Holy Land back into a land "flowing with milk and honey]. Then he will ultimately blow this heaven and earth away and create a new creation for people to live in. (Hope nobody screws that one up).

ajq: Righteousness and Truth is His sword! He will come with the angels and immediately snatch out the truly wicked first, they'll go kicking and screaming but angels of wrath will take them away. Judgments will begin and true righteousness will fill the earth.

WGL: 6) Why do I feel the need to defend Christianity's teachings on a Judaic forum... (just a note for myself, really)

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 1, 2012 2:28:01 AM PDT
ajqueen says:
Moshe Sharon, I agree.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 1, 2012 2:35:03 AM PDT
ajqueen says:
Moshe Sharon says:
Lock: Why do I feel the need to defend Christianity's teachings on a Judaic forum... (just a note for myself, really)

Moshe: I don't think this forum was ever intended to attack Christianity. That subject has no significance in Jewish life. However, there are many self-appointed missionaries who feel compelled to convince us that we should be worshiping a Jew who has been dead for about 2,000 years. Most Jews view that as an attack. I have always suspected that such crusaders have doubts about their Christian beliefs and desperately need us to validate them. Otherwise they wouldn't care whether Jews accepted Christianity or not.

ajq: Nor is Christianity here to attack Jews. (God forbid). Concerning Jesus there is no doubt He is Lord. Honestly, Christians share our message because its God's truth that He has sent grace unto all men through Jesus. If I ever had any care for a Jew or any man for that matter, I should share with him this truth.

Without the truth of God's Words we all would be utterly lost. The prophets spoke the truth as they were led, facing opposition but knowing of what they spoke. Christians to share the truth of what God has revealed to their hearts, although often misunderstood. Jesus too was very misunderstood.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 1, 2012 2:37:30 AM PDT
ajqueen says:
Uncle Pinky, a Happy Breslover says:
What a lot of xians do not understand is that Jews put little to no credence on the xian bible.

If you cannot elucidate your points using the Jewish Bible we simply are not interested.

ajq: yes, this I have seen of Big Shmooz. Yet there is indeed a New Covenant promised, and Joel lets us know that your sons and daughters will prophecy during this time, so clearly there was more Word of God to come. Even John the Baptist.

What do Jews believe concerning John the Baptist?

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 1, 2012 7:48:29 AM PDT
cbk says:
Moshe: Your translation is correct. The word "Tov" is the Hebrew word for "good." But we can assume that in the context of the Master of the Universe assessing His creation, it means perfect.

No. We know that it simply means "according to His Will". The trees weren't "Good", because... well you know the rest. Man was not created perfect. Had he been perfect there would be no way to serve God.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 1, 2012 7:50:09 AM PDT
cbk says:
Uncle Pinky, a Happy Breslover says:
What a lot of xians do not understand is that Jews put little to no credence on the xian bible.

Please show any Torah Jews that put "little" credence in their bible. The latter is correct.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 1, 2012 7:53:02 AM PDT
cbk says:
ajq: What do Jews believe concerning John the Baptist?

WHy do you think that we have any opinion of him? He is not on our radar. Just because he's a big deal to you doesn't mean that we even acknowledge him. We don't even know for sure that he existed. It is only your bible that says so, and that is no more authoritative than a James Patterson novel.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 1, 2012 9:40:24 AM PDT
cbk says:
Me: I think you may be taking things a bit too far with that statement. I believe God does want perfection. It is a goal we should all strive for. If we make it, all is well and good. But the main thing is our effort. But God also knows that as human beings with a yetser harah perfection is going to come by very rarely. Though it has happened with certain people. The Talmud names four people who never sinned. Yitzchak we are taught completely conquered his yetser harah. So perfection is attainable despite it's rarity.

You aren't seeing what I said in context. Yes, we should strive for OUR perfection, not a standard perfection of "being perfect" for all. OUR PERFECTION is, as I said, fulfilling our own potential even though that potential may not be 'perfection' for others. God does not want perfection to start off with. He didn't want to create a PERFECT world, otherwise there would be no way to serve Him. Had Adam been perfect, as xians say, he could not have sinned. But it was through his very very high level of spirituality that he saw the need to sin in order to bring himself and the world to a higher level of 'perfection' than before. (yerida l'tzorech aliyah) As we are taught: A tzaddik cannot stand in the place of the repentant.

Me: Adam made a mistake. He misclaculated because he disobeyed God despite his good intentions.

There is much much more for you to learn about this subject. The sefarim discuss this at length.

>> I am not convinced.

Then learn. More on this is not for this forum. If you'd like to contact me off forum, please do.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 1, 2012 9:41:48 AM PDT
cbk says:
Me: Not according to Rashi who quotes Targum Yonasan...
and He accounted it to him as righteousness: The Holy One, blessed be He, accounted it to Avram as a merit and as righteousness for the faith that he believed in Him (Targum Yonasan).

Yes, I know. But the Ibn Ezra flows more with the actual translation of "tzedaka" and the context of the actual dialogue.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 1, 2012 12:12:02 PM PDT
Moshe Sharon says:
ajq: Nor is Christianity here to attack Jews. (God forbid). Concerning Jesus there is no doubt He is Lord. Honestly, Christians share our message because its God's truth that He has sent grace unto all men through Jesus. If I ever had any care for a Jew or any man for that matter, I should share with him this truth.

Moshe: But you are attacking Jews because you are proselytizing your Christian rubbish in the Judaism forum. There is one major difference between us, your truth is our lie, but our truth is the foundation of your false religion. You are exactly what I described in my previous post. A crusader who is so in doubt of your false religion that you are desperate to find any Jew to validate your belief. You may find some Jews who buy into the JC story, but for most of us it ain't gonna happen.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 1, 2012 12:17:21 PM PDT
Moshe Sharon says:
cbk: No. We know that it simply means "according to His Will". The trees weren't "Good", because... well you know the rest. Man was not created perfect. Had he been perfect there would be no way to serve God.

Moshe: You're contradicting yourself. G-d created man according to his will. What you perceive to be imperfections are the perfect human being with the gift of free will. To say that there is inherently something wrong with us is more of a Christian doctrine of man being born evil with the guilt of original sin. Adam and Eve went against G-d's will and fell from their state of perfection. We have the mission to restore ourselves to that pristine state of perfection within which we make HaShem's Will our own.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 1, 2012 1:18:38 PM PDT
ajqueen says:
Moshe Sharon, no sir, not at all. I jumped in a dialogue on Abraham. I am by no means attacking any Jews at all, nor would I, I would share our differences in scriptures, but certainly wouldnt beat anyone over the head with it so to speak. Honestly for all Jews its gonna happen, but it will be when you see Him coming in the clouds with great power and glory while all the nations have surrounded Israel. I hate to think of the evils that have and will come upon this world because of sin.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 1, 2012 1:46:50 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jun 1, 2012 2:00:08 PM PDT
Moshe Sharon says:
ajqueen: Moshe Sharon, no sir, not at all. I jumped in a dialogue on Abraham. I am by no means attacking any Jews at all, nor would I, I would share our differences in scriptures, but certainly wouldnt beat anyone over the head with it so to speak. Honestly for all Jews its gonna happen, but it will be when you see Him coming in the clouds with great power and glory while all the nations have surrounded Israel. I hate to think of the evils that have and will come upon this world because of sin.

Moshe: Oh, but I have been telling you that promoting Christian belief in the Judaism forum is an attack against Jews, especially when you say that we will all eventually become Christians against our will when JC comes in a cloud of glory backed by the threat of annihilation from the armies of the nations of the world surrounding Jerusalem. Not only are you attacking Jews, but you are doing it viciously, without conscience and saying in effect that all Jews who don't capitulate to your false beliefs deserve death. You also have intimated that the Jews are the cause of all the evil that will come upon this world because of the sin of not believing in the big lie about the dead Jew. I haven't seen such virulent anti Semitism in my entire life, let alone this forum. You're not even trying very hard to hide it. You might be wearing sheep's clothing but your saliva-dripping fangs are clearly visible. You aren't fooling anyone but yourself.

Now it's obvious that the "aj" in "ajqueen" stands for "anti-Jewish"

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 1, 2012 1:58:29 PM PDT
cbk says:
Moshe: What you perceive to be imperfections are the perfect human being with the gift of free will.

Yes, but that is semantics. We were created perfectly in that we were created imperfectly, or perfectly imperfect. Our job is rectify the imperfections in our souls. This is all explained in the shattering of the vessels, which I'm sure as a Chabad devotee you're familiar with.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 1, 2012 2:00:08 PM PDT
cbk says:
Moshe:. Not only are you attacking Jews, but you are doing it viciously, without conscience and saying in effect that all Jews who don't capitulate to your false beliefs deserve death.

Correction - all Jews who don't capitulate to your false beliefs deserve to be tortured for all eternity (by their loving and merciful god).

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 1, 2012 2:09:20 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jun 1, 2012 2:18:59 PM PDT
Moshe Sharon says:
cbk, I think that your use of the word "imperfect" is misplaced in the context of the creation of humankind. The paradigm is not perfect versus imperfect, but rather a decision-making human being obeying G-d's will motivated by love and awe (Ahavah v' Yira) versus a programmed robot. Free will is not an implanted imperfection, but a gift that allows us to be self aware while we make the choice to serve only our Creator. The imperfections came about as a result of making the wrong choice. Perfect versus imperfect is strictly a human perspective relating to the consequences of our being. G-d gave us the power to either bring the world further down or elevate it to its former state of "perfection" during which the first two humans followed G-d's will until three hours before the end of the sixth day. The fact that they were capable of disobedience doesn't make them "imperfect" at the time of creation because they were equally capable of keeping the first Mitzvah, bringing in the first Shabbos in perfect obedience.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 1, 2012 2:25:19 PM PDT
cbk says:
Moshe, I agree with you, however, if you see what I wrote earlier today, I explained what I mean by perfection/imperfection. Perfect, the way it is generally used, and especially by the xians here, means a general standard of perfection. To the Torah, perfection (shleimus) means fulfilling one's potential; that is how we perfect ourselves. Some people have vast potential and some people have much less, so that what is perfection for one person is far from it to another person. Thus we were created imperfect, with unfulfilled potentials, so that we can complete our missions to achieve perfection through the means of free will and all the other stuff God gave us to do so.

>> The fact that they were capable of disobedience doesn't make them "imperfect."

Correct, according to the way I defined "perfection".

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 1, 2012 2:48:41 PM PDT
ajqueen says:
Moshe, Zechariah and other prophets make quiet clear the things we face at the end of this age. aj, not at all. Id have not interest in believing scripture at all if that were the case.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 1, 2012 2:51:52 PM PDT
ajqueen says:
Moshe Sharon, no sir, not at all. I jumped in a dialogue on Abraham. I am by no means attacking any Jews at all, nor would I, I would share our differences in scriptures, but certainly wouldnt beat anyone over the head with it so to speak. Honestly for all Jews its gonna happen, but it will be when you see Him coming in the clouds with great power and glory while all the nations have surrounded Israel. I hate to think of the evils that have and will come upon this world because of sin.

Me: Now I remember why I was defending Christianity... There was a raving loon here promoting a distorted view of it...

In one sentence you say you wouldn't beat anyone over the head with your beliefs, then in the very next sentence you do exactly that.

I won't claim to speak for anyone else, but I know that in my own life I've been guilty of more than enough sin to bring evil to the world, so there's no need for me to look elsewhere for blame.

And remarkably, I've found all the posters here to be very open to an exchange of ideas, with the exception of you, ajq. You want to "present" your ideas but have no interest in actually discussing the merits or lack thereof, or in actually listening to any other viewpoints other than your own.

Here's another something my pastor taught me back a long time ago: No matter who you are, what church you grew up in, who your teachers are/were: the odds that you were taught and believe all the correct doctrines and understand everything the Bible teaches is exactly NIL.

You've got to be willing to be wrong before you can learn to be right.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 1, 2012 2:55:28 PM PDT
ajqueen says:
cbk says:
Moshe:. Not only are you attacking Jews, but you are doing it viciously, without conscience and saying in effect that all Jews who don't capitulate to your false beliefs deserve death.

Correction - all Jews who don't capitulate to your false beliefs deserve to be tortured for all eternity (by their loving and merciful god).

ajq: scriptures say all Israel will be saved. Question will be, who is all of Israel. Only the Lord can tell me that one.
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